Animals, the rational animal and suffering

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

So, famously, the greeks considered rationality as the defining feature of humans - what seperates us from animals.

 

i have two cats. They seem to live in constant bliss, without any sense of worry or suffering. Do you agree that animals generally dont suffer, while many humans do?

 

How do explain that the only creature capable of rationality, wisdom and virtue, is the most miserable of them all?

[silent thunder]

Discomfort and pain seem unavoidable occasionally, if one has a body and an active monkey mind.

Suffering though, seems entirely optional.

[zerostao]

Is using rationality in an irrational world, rational?

 

Other mammals ain't all that much different than us.

 

I think if we look for an animal/mammal definition of what sets humans apart is; a human has two opposing thumbs capable of grasping at straws.

[Nungali]

Eh   ?  

 

 

 

Regareding the actual difference .... I did a years long anthropological study on this . I examined one theory ( about what makes us different from other animals ) after another and discounted most of them  - for valid reasons,  that is    .

 

Also the history of this has gone the same way ; we have thought it was this feature or that function, differently, over time, but they got discounted too . My first anthropology text book had 'Man - the tool maker' as the distinction . That got tossed out long ago !

 

I think the Greeks used 'rationality' in a way  we do not , first it was a very extensive definition . Second, what would modern irrational mind know about it . And third, I suspect they came to the same conclusions I did but did not have the same words to express it .

 

I can see how the distinction is indeed a form of 'rationale' .   An 'extended  rationality' regarding the future  projected use of an artifact , and also the multi use of a created object . Its about imagination, visualsation, rationalization and an ability to materialize that in a cultural object .

Edited September 22 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Here is what makes humans different   

 

How most primates  will get a straw/s

 

 

 

how humans think they need to get a straw ;

 

 

 

 

Edited September 22 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Here is a monkey 'grasping at straws '   ( Grasping at straws means trying to find some way to succeed or some reason to feel hopeful when nothing you choose is likely to work. )

 

 

...... he finally 'cracks it' . 

[zerostao]

Right, right.

I think it's more useful to say which Ancient Greeks, specifically, rather than lump them all into the same pigeon hole. 

Euripides wouldn't give much weight to rationality.

Obviously, not all Ancient Greeks agreed across the expansive world of ideas. 

Are we using Plato as a baseline to say Classical Ancient Greek ?

The pre-Socratic Greeks, or as I refer to them as; the Ancient Ancient Greeks, some of those were exactly what so many fifteen year olds come to TDB  looking for; Super Natural Abilities and Power.

I've lived much of my life in the wilderness of a large Ancient National Forest. What I've witnessed some animals do, 99.9% of ya'll wouldn't believe anyways. 

To label them, Magical, would be a gross underestimation of their capabilities,virtues, powers,,,

Especially, "possums".

 

[Nungali]

Good point .  

 

Spiros may not agree ;

 

 

 

 

 

And also this  is in a context of  a few discussions (posts on DBs) , posts I have made or in discussion with 'Natura Naturans '  re ;

eudaimonia , 'True Will' , Khvahrenah ' , in short one's reason and purpose for being here . It might seem insignificant but this is viewed in contrast with the many modern westerners who dont know why they are here or what their purpose is . Its even said that is the main question of life .   Eg; in another thread I said '' Is it rational to go to work every day in a job you dont like that is unfulfilling and depressing ? ''  There might be a rationale in WHY you are doing it  but that is something different . 

 

First I look at 'rational '  ;   Logically sound; not self-contradictory or otherwise absurd.

 

It also relates to an individual :   Healthy or balanced intellectually; exhibiting reasonableness.

 

'The Greeks' have terms for those  two as well and they consider them 'eudamonic ingredients ' .

 

Even the Cosmos can have a reason  - according to Pythagoras , so it is something 'inherent' ,  not something (in this view) restricted to the  human psyche .  Perhaps similar to the Egyptian Goddess (and 'principle' ; Ma'at - a type of cosmic 'reason' or 'order' ) ?  Plato puts it at the top of our personal 'hierarchy' , above things like passions and drives . He also sees it as THE essential ingredient towards eudaimonia

 

"  (Plato)  described the highest human happiness or well being (eudaimonia) as a life which is lived consistently, excellently, and completely in accordance with reason . "

 

Aristotle ?

 

Nah . 

 

So they are the ancient Greeks  and the stream of philosophy I am referring to .   (And I thought it would be obvious I am a neo-Platonist ... after all these years and posts ? ) 

 

Anyway, tying all of the above together  ;  the monkeys had reasoning power , eventually ,  and cracked the nut . Thats the type of reason most think of when they define reason .   But our 'output'  (things we do and make to solve those problems and much more complex ones (ie. our technology ) , no monkey or no other animal does that .  That is our specific 'skill' .

 

The skill is, as I hinted at above' an ability to physically create a 'cultural object '  (including a tool )  that does not just have an immediate use , but for a future use, by imagining a scenario and how it might play out  and then making an object or tool to deal with that , in the future . This faculty especially comes into play when it is a multi use tool - in fact modern multi use tools are popular and even cause some form of delight or appreciation in us  - I will use two examples ; the woomera ;

 

 

spear thrower , club, digging scoop,  digging point , plate , water ladle / carrier .

 

Boomerang .  I have seen a guy throw one , it curved around the field and started to come back in the usual way , but then just slowed down and hovered, about shoulder height , an arms length away from the thrower ... and just hang there , stationary in the air , rotating slower and slower until it  flopped to the ground .

 

Thats pretty good for a guy that 'only' uses bits of rocks and wood  ! 

 

If you want to know how they make them do that ;  https://www.math.uci.edu/~eesser/papers/justboom.pdf

 

Now, when we are successful at this particular human skill, it gives us a buzz, an inner satisfaction and it is healing and healthy ; creative output , that has been envisaged and materially made by your own creative genius . Thats what we are here for as humans , and as individuals its that specific type of expression that our own individual 'genius' gives us  ('genius' again in the ' Greek sense'  ,  and 'genius ' ... genii ... is intimately connected to 'tutelary deity '  ) - 'soul expression ' -     and that is also one the key 'ingredients' to eudaimonia .

 

So now, if we 'follow or True Will' , as Crowley encouraged us to , if we follow the path of our kvharenah , as Zoroaster advised us to , and we find our specific purpose , work and our field of genius , and do that .... we will not be leading an irrational life , and wondering  why we have to do this job (or even for some ; this life ) we  dont feel we want to, that does not fulfil us , but instead follow our true nature and creative expression of our individual genius ... and we get acclaim , or recognition or position for that , we might even (and some do ! ) do that for our job  ( " I LOVE my job ! " I go to 'work' everyday and I get paid for doing what I love ! "  )  , we will be very close to eudaimonia . Which does not depend on fame , acclaim or riches , or possessions . For with them, but with no purpose you will become depressed , but for those that  found their  function and purpose, and do it its .......  the opposite .

 

And of course your work or will is not for any to judge , everything I said could apply to the check out chick, the helicopter pilot, the mother , the fisherman  and the proud  native that stands outside his hut , thumping his chest and saying " I am a man and a hunter  , and yesterday I hunted enough meat for all my people  for two days !  " 

 

While another ; " That is good. I have made a 'cultural object' and with it I am going to teach about an idea I have had  that will bring all the tribes and countries in this land   together and enable them to live in a new era of peace , prosperity and abundance  ... its going to end the wars !  " 

 

- true story  ; 

 

http://www.ifrao.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/31-1-Doring.pdf

 

 

 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, zerostao said:

.....

I've lived much of my life in the wilderness of a large Ancient National Forest. What I've witnessed some animals do, 99.9% of ya'll wouldn't believe anyways. 

 

 

 

nice to know I am  a .1% er .

 

7 hours ago, zerostao said:

To label them, Magical, would be a gross underestimation of their capabilities,virtues, powers,,,

 

and other things ....

 

got three little  yabbies , put them in the tank , over time, one of them is more aggressive - bully boy , keeps beating up on the other two . Eventually they have a little discussion in the corner and advance on bully , abreast , nippers out front . Bully takes a higher position up a bit of weed and presents claws . The two move in  and .... I swear this true !  ..... a little neon tetra swims past the bully and just as it passes towards the back of bully yabbie's head , he flings a claw back, snatches it, brings it forward , rips its head off and drops the head, climbs up the weed and now over the top of the other two , waving the headless fish body in the air over them . They freak out and scatter , and act totally freaked and scared all the next day .   So I moved bully out to the pond .

 

 

Here is an amusing one ; mate got new motorcycle and was sitting on verandah .... just as well he was admiring it parked on the lawn and watching . A bowerbird flew in , snatched the keys (blue key ring ) out the ignition and flew off with them . He chased it and saw where it went generally , did a search of the undergrowth , found the bower with keys in it . Took them back and swapped the keyring for red one .

 

A bower birds bower :

 

 

they will collect anything blue . Also dont use blue plastic clothes pegs, your washing will end on the ground .

 

-  and thats not even the 'magical stuff'

 

 

7 hours ago, zerostao said:

 

Especially, "possums".

 

 

 

 

 

Was that just for me ?    ( You forgot I was a neo-Platonist but remembered  I have a possum and babies  sleeping over my bed,  and various others in various  places and my teacher is possum  totem ? )

 

 

 

So I couldn't agree with you more .

 

Although that has nothing to do with the special abilities humans have  (note, I never said they where superior abilities   ) 

[zerostao]

You might be a .01%

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

19 hours ago, zerostao said:

I've lived much of my life in the wilderness of a large Ancient National Forest. What I've witnessed some animals do, 99.9% of ya'll wouldn't believe anyways. 

To label them, Magical, would be a gross underestimation of their capabilities,virtues, powers,,,

Especially, "possums".

Id love to hear.

Let me clarrify one thing: I do not for a moment doubt animals inner life, personality and emotions. Not for a second, one would have to be completely devoid of empathy to do that. Let me quote you the section I read that inspired the question. The following is quoted (and translated by AI) from the foreword of Epiktets work, by Viggo Johansen:

 

Quote

Page 15:

"According to Stoic philosophy, humans are reasoning animals. We share our animal nature, that is, our biological nature, with all other animals, while what is unique to humans is our capacity for reason. This is often translated to mean that we possess rationality, which tends to be equated with our ability to think. However, it is important to be cautious here, for this is the central point in the entire philosophy—everything else rests upon it—and if we misunderstand this, we misunderstand the entire argument. So let us proceed carefully.

To understand the Stoics' view of what it means to be human and what the good life consists of, we must begin with..."

Page 16:

"...their view on existence itself. The foundation of their worldview lies in the belief in the goodness of nature and its purposefulness. Nature is divine. Epictetus uses the words 'Nature' and 'God' as synonyms. We are obviously not talking about God as a person or entity but as the highest principle. Therefore, it is not so strange that God can be equated with Nature. We do not live in a cold and meaningless universe, where life is random, but rather in one that is absolutely meaningful—essentially. The ordering principle in existence, logos, is embedded in humans as our reasoning ability, or our capacity for understanding. As a metaphor, and perhaps to better grasp its implications, there is a divine spark inherent in every human being—something that is like God—and it is this that separates us from other animals. Humans have an inherent ability to transcend their biological nature and recognize their divine nature. To move from being bound to being free.

Thus, it is not thinking that is essential to our reasoning ability, even though thinking is derived from it, but rather that it is possible for humans to live in truth. To live in truth is to live in harmony with nature, that is, with the highest principle. For our biological nature, survival and reproduction are the most important principles for life, while for our inner nature, truth is the most important principle—and if these come into conflict with one another, a true Stoic would say that it is better to die alive than to live dead. Therefore, it is not surprising that Socrates is the prime example for Stoics, both in how he lived and how he died. Socrates drank the poison without complaint—although he could easily have avoided it by yielding to external demands—and by his action, he demonstrated the crowning example of Stoic calm: that reason overcomes even death."

Page 17:

"It is no coincidence that the Handbook begins with the words: 'With everything here in life, it is as if the individual thing is what you determine, while others do not.' What we determine, understanding, is the compass in life. If one follows its instructions, external goods lose their allure—health, money, reputation, power—everything worldly is seen from a bird's eye view. Life's events follow the whims of fate, and as humans, we experience both success and adversity, but none of this has anything to do with the good life. For humans, what matters is wanting what happens. Stoic self-discipline is about becoming so attuned to existence that one's own will aligns with the will of life itself; there is nothing in me that resists life's movement—whether it goes 'well' or 'poorly' outwardly. The Stoic understands, or lives in such a way, that they are part of the universe's center, not the center itself—life revolves around me, and I submit myself accordingly to Nature. Then there is no conflict in me, no opposition, which is the same as Stoic calm. The Stoic calm is therefore not about becoming immune to life, but rather about becoming like life itself. A Stoic is not indifferent to life, but rather completely transparent in meeting life—fully alive."

 

Is it our failure to live in accordance to nature, god, "true will," what have you, that lead to misery?  And why do we fail?

Edited September 23 by NaturaNaturans

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

Spiros may not agree ;

 

 

 

 

 

And also this  is in a context of  a few discussions (posts on DBs) , posts I have made or in discussion with 'Natura Naturans '  re ;

eudaimonia , 'True Will' , Khvahrenah ' , in short one's reason and purpose for being here . It might seem insignificant but this is viewed in contrast with the many modern westerners who dont know why they are here or what their purpose is . Its even said that is the main question of life .   Eg; in another thread I said '' Is it rational to go to work every day in a job you dont like that is unfulfilling and depressing ? ''  There might be a rationale in WHY you are doing it  but that is something different . 

Fucking Spiros 

 

One thing I should probally have asked you a long time ago, but that I have not, is this: how do you live in accordance to your true will? What is essential for you?

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Id love to hear.

Let me clarrify one thing: I do not for a moment doubt animals inner life, personality and emotions. Not for a second, one would have to be completely devoid of empathy to do that. Let me quote you the section I read that inspired the question. The following is quoted (and translated by AI) from the foreword of Epiktets work, by Viggo Johansen:

 

 

Is it our failure to live in accordance to nature, god, "true will," what have you, that lead to misery?  And why do we fail?

 

Why ?  I see it like this .

 

You might be able to walk to the top of the mountain  with a map . But what if you want to test your skills and what you have learnt previously and see if you can get up there without a map   . And lets say you have been up that mountain many times before , then you would be just working on memory and not skill  of orienting a new way forward .

 

So you go through a process where you forget what you knew about the mountain and the way up , to see if you can work it out again .

 

You might make it ... or you might fuck up ... and least later  you will know where and why you fucked up ... and take that on board  for next attempt  .... ie. try to remember the  processes that worked for you  because the actual route will be erased from your memory each time you try it .

 

The details of each life may not be that important , its the learning of 'process'  or what the Sufis call 'learning how to learn ' ... so it 'sticks'

 

Sorry if  this attempt at simplicity made my  communication unfathomable   

Edited September 23 by Nungali

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

 

Fucking Spiros 

 

Well, not ALL Greeks agree with me      

 

One thing I should probally have asked you a long time ago, but that I have not, is this: how do you live in accordance to your true will? What is essential for you?

 

First find then do . For some reason the question confuses me .   HOW DO I  ?   ... by doing it .  If it is your true will to be a painter ... be a painter .  You might have to do some other job to buy materials , but dont let that stop you .

 

 

Oh, here is a how .... dont let anything stop you from doing your true will . Thats the tricky bit , so many diversions, temptations and unforeseen events can chuck you off the path .  You might have to be pretty adamant .

 

That is the essential thing ... to find it and do it .

 

or perhaps you want my private specifics , how i found my kvharenah  and how I was able to fulfill it ?

 

I should point out I am retired , that is I already did it  ( several times , it can change and develop as you go along )  so now I am just 'sittin back and chillin  .  There is a frustration though, knowing this has all but died out . Like many elders here ; I am one of the last, I'll be gone , tradition gone , knowledge gone , modern people 'going to hell in a hand basket '  (as they say )  ... sad ?  yeah but .... mhe .

 

I had my fun already .  Yes, I have always admitted to being ultimately selfish .

 

 

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

19 hours ago, Nungali said:

or perhaps you want my private specifics , how i found my kvharenah  and how I was able to fulfill it ?

Yes, that was what I had in mind.

 

«There is a frustration though, knowing this has all but died out . Like many elders here ; I am one of the last, I'll be gone , tradition gone , knowledge gone , modern people 'going to hell in a hand basket '  (as they say )  ... sad ?  yeah but .... mhe .»

 

I feel like an absolute ass commenting this when you are talking about one of lifes… idk, scariest and biggest question, but why let the religion with no name die?

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

20 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Why ?  I see it like this .

 

You might be able to walk to the top of the mountain  with a map . But what if you want to test your skills and what you have learnt previously and see if you can get up there without a map   . And lets say you have been up that mountain many times before , then you would be just working on memory and not skill  of orienting a new way forward .

 

So you go through a process where you forget what you knew about the mountain and the way up , to see if you can work it out again .

 

You might make it ... or you might fuck up ... and least later  you will know where and why you fucked up ... and take that on board  for next attempt  .... ie. try to remember the  processes that worked for you  because the actual route will be erased from your memory each time you try it .

 

The details of each life may not be that important , its the learning of 'process'  or what the Sufis call 'learning how to learn ' ... so it 'sticks'

 

Sorry if  this attempt at simplicity made my  communication unfathomable   

I think I get you: when you walk the same path every day, you stop to live conciousley and go by autopilot. So the point is to live conciously, correct?

 

And yess, there are certainly many trying to tell you who you are, where you should go, what you should buy, say, think and feel. Muddying the map a little. If I am a allowed to be a little dramatic; the whole word tries to manipulate you.

[心神 ~]

On 9/23/2024 at 6:22 PM, Nungali said:

 

Why ?  I see it like this .

 

You might be able to walk to the top of the mountain  with a map . But what if you want to test your skills and what you have learnt previously and see if you can get up there without a map   . And lets say you have been up that mountain many times before , then you would be just working on memory and not skill  of orienting a new way forward .

 

So you go through a process where you forget what you knew about the mountain and the way up , to see if you can work it out again .

 

You might make it ... or you might fuck up ... and least later  you will know where and why you fucked up ... and take that on board  for next attempt  .... ie. try to remember the  processes that worked for you  because the actual route will be erased from your memory each time you try it .

 

The details of each life may not be that important , its the learning of 'process'  or what the Sufis call 'learning how to learn ' ... so it 'sticks'

 

Sorry if  this attempt at simplicity made my  communication unfathomable   

 

 

It's not quite what you're saying here, but this reminds me of the story of The Old Weaving Woman.

 

An old woman sits in a cave weaving a garment. One that she hopes will be the most beautiful garment in the world. She's been weaving this garment her entire life, and she's reached the final point of adding its fringe. 

 

One day, a black dog rushes into the cave, grabs the cloth by a corner, and rushes out, unraveling the entire garment.

 

The old woman's life work ruined. After staring at the mess of thread for a while, she picks it back up and begins weaving again. Her hands remember the work well, and the garment comes together more quickly, even more beautiful than the first time.

 

Like a process of releasing in order to refine. Frustrating, but ultimately satisfying and worthwhile.

 

[silent thunder]

2 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

It's not quite what you're saying here, but this reminds me of the story of The Old Weaving Woman.

 

An old woman sits in a cave weaving a garment. One that she hopes will be the most beautiful garment in the world. She's been weaving this garment her entire life, and she's reached the final point of adding its fringe. 

 

One day, a black dog rushes into the cave, grabs the cloth by a corner, and rushes out, unraveling the entire garment.

 

The old woman's life work ruined. After staring at the mess of thread for a while, she picks it back up and begins weaving again. Her hands remember the work well, and the garment comes together more quickly, even more beautiful than the first time.

 

Like a process of releasing in order to refine. Frustrating, but ultimately satisfying and worthwhile.

 

Your sharing reminds me of the Japanese art of Kintsugi; the mending of broken pottery using fine metals. 

 

The restored pieces becoming more cherised and valued for having been broken and mended by skilled, caring hands... their scars becoming a mark of beauty and resillience which enhances the inherent beauty of the original work.

 

 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

It's not quite what you're saying here, but this reminds me of the story of The Old Weaving Woman.

 

An old woman sits in a cave weaving a garment. One that she hopes will be the most beautiful garment in the world. She's been weaving this garment her entire life, and she's reached the final point of adding its fringe. 

 

One day, a black dog rushes into the cave, grabs the cloth by a corner, and rushes out, unraveling the entire garment.

 

The old woman's life work ruined. After staring at the mess of thread for a while, she picks it back up and begins weaving again. Her hands remember the work well, and the garment comes together more quickly, even more beautiful than the first time.

 

Like a process of releasing in order to refine. Frustrating, but ultimately satisfying and worthwhile.

 

 

 

Mmmmm ... sort of .   I think perhaps, living an 'unconscious' life with an unconscious death might be the 'unraveling ' .  Learning, and allowing it to sink in and  permeate the 'immortal spirit' .... we might be able to bring our beautiful  cloth with us  into the next world , and if we choose, 'come back and make more ' with the experience .under our 'spiritual belt' .

 

" ... thus we gather up all the threads of human passion and interest, and weave them into an harmonious tapestry, subtly and diligently with great art, that our Order may seem an ornament even to the Stars that are in the Heavens at Night. In our rainbow-coloured texture we set forth the glory of the whole Universe— See thou to it, brother Magician, that thine own thread be strong, and pure, and of a colour brilliant in itself, yet ready to mingle in all beauty with those of thy brethren! "

 

- from 'The Constitution of the O.T.O. '  .

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Your sharing reminds me of the Japanese art of Kintsugi; the mending of broken pottery using fine metals. 

 

The restored pieces becoming more cherised and valued for having been broken and mended by skilled, caring hands... their scars becoming a mark of beauty and resillience which enhances the inherent beauty of the original work.

 

 

 

 

The kentsugi  artists  are like the angels that fix us up in the afterlife   

 

... and I am reminded also of Ecclesiastes  12 : 6  

 

" , Remember your Creator now while you are young, before the silver cord of life snaps and the golden bowl is broken. Don’t wait until the water jar is smashed at the spring and the pulley is broken at the well. "

Edited November 1 by Nungali