Does all spiritual traditions point towards the same truth?

[NaturaNaturans]

47 minutes ago, doc benway said:

Not sure if any of that makes sense but it's fun to chat about "it" once in a while.

Let me offer a radically different perception of «it,» for a moment, if only as a thought experiment. How about fully embracing this very personal and limited experience can be very fulfilling? That instead of trying to escape it, you say yes from the bottom of your heart, even your perception might or might not be in accordance to the underlying… what term would you prefer here? I think you would prefer no term, but can we call it reality?

[Chang dao ling]

On 10/3/2024 at 7:18 PM, dwai said:

 

Does that really tell us anything? One phenomenological inference can be that there is nothing beyond space and time. So, is Truth (Ultimate or otherwise) nothing, then?

 

 

Something that is beyond space and time is" unimaginable ". Ultimate truth is not nothing it is something that is unimaginable.  regular practice of meditation leads to enlightenment. Enlightenment leads to insight, insight leads to ultimate truth.

[doc benway]

22 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Let me offer a radically different perception of «it,» for a moment, if only as a thought experiment. How about fully embracing this very personal and limited experience can be very fulfilling? That instead of trying to escape it, you say yes from the bottom of your heart, even your perception might or might not be in accordance to the underlying… what term would you prefer here? I think you would prefer no term, but can we call it reality?

 

I'm not completely clear on what you're trying to say.

When you refer to "fully embracing this very personal and limited experience," are you referring to our mundane life experience in general, to the experiences of awakening in and beyond meditation, or to all of the above, or to something else? When you say "instead of trying to escape" do you mean that spiritual practice is an escape from mundane life experience or am I misinterpreting you?

I would like to respond but I want to be accurate.

Thanks

Edited October 5 by doc benway

[dwai]

7 hours ago, Chang dao ling said:

Something that is beyond space and time is" unimaginable ". Ultimate truth is not nothing it is something that is unimaginable.  regular practice of meditation leads to enlightenment. Enlightenment leads to insight, insight leads to ultimate truth.

Is it some “thing” then? To me unimaginable means something the mind cannot even think of. But obviously a lot of thinking is happening about what this Ultimate Truth is.
 

Could it be, that it is what it is because it is not a “thing”?  Rather it is what makes thinking possible? 

[Chang dao ling]

11 hours ago, dwai said:

Rather it is what makes thinking possible?

In Hinduism ultimate truth is called "Parambrahma" because of Parambrahma we are capable of thinking ( our consciousness). So in Hinduism they use term 

" Self realisation" here self refers to Parambrahma. Realising we are Parambrahma is the ultimate truth and end of suffering 

[Ascetic]

There are certainly the opposite truths which have no blend with other ideas.

 

Try a cult that worship Ravens, the goal being domination over others/ritual sacrifice and a language which progresses in understanding through faith. The God in question, is known as the Rat King and revels in Sadism. One can argue its not spiritual, but I would think that worship of any kind is a spiritual plateau.

Definitely lots of Sorcery that deviates from the self/brahman or even universal idea of truth as well.

Demons also enjoy difference of information, like the opposite of the self(union, no differences, clear puddle). The kat kat kat sound in Hell is very painful with how different the tones are. At least for me, it appears very agonizing compared to the light of consciousness.

[Klinsly]

I think many of them do, but you have a lot of human error and opinions added in over time that becomes tradition which people then get indoctrinated into to be part of the group so the original message gets entirely hidden or loses its focus. Then you end up with something that isn't remotely what it was intended to be originally. This is the typical track of religions. Which is why something like studying esoteric information is valuable or philopsohies such as the Dao so you can start to see beyond the superficial coverings people place upon  the truth.

 

There is a great Daskalos quote  I can summarize its similar to the Blind men and the Elephant parable. 

He said the truth is like a many facted Jewel. Each major religion  is one facet of that jewel all containing their own unique things for those people at that time, but you need all sides of the jewel to get the whole truth, so each has its value but no one system contains the absolute truth.

A great example of this though it's a hard one for religious people is how much Christianity can be improved by an understanding of Eastern religions it fills in a lot of the blanks and tough questions. By likewise the focus on compassion, love humility and service in Christianity can really help the other systems.

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, Klinsly said:

I think many of them do, but you have a lot of human error and opinions added in over time that becomes tradition which people then get indoctrinated into to be part of the group so the original message gets entirely hidden or loses its focus. Then you end up with something that isn't remotely what it was intended to be originally. This is the typical track of religions. Which is why something like studying esoteric information is valuable or philopsohies such as the Dao so you can start to see beyond the superficial coverings people place upon  the truth.

 

There is a great Daskalos quote  I can summarize its similar to the Blind men and the Elephant parable. 

He said the truth is like a many facted Jewel. Each major religion  is one facet of that jewel all containing their own unique things for those people at that time, but you need all sides of the jewel to get the whole truth, so each has its value but no one system contains the absolute truth.

A great example of this though it's a hard one for religious people is how much Christianity can be improved by an understanding of Eastern religions it fills in a lot of the blanks and tough questions. By likewise the focus on compassion, love humility and service in Christianity can really help the other systems.

 

very nice, although I don't completely agree  about one system not being able to lead to absolute truth...

[NaturaNaturans]

On nothingness… Aristotle once said, nothing is the dream of a rock. He did not acctually say that, but, I think it is a good one.

 

@doc benway It appears I might have missinterpeted you, based on your last response : )

[Thrice Daily]

On 05/10/2024 at 11:20 AM, Chang dao ling said:

Something that is beyond space and time is" unimaginable ". Ultimate truth is not nothing it is something that is unimaginable.  regular practice of meditation leads to enlightenment. Enlightenment leads to insight, insight leads to ultimate truth.

Sounds like bliss. 

Is ultimate truth Metta/Love?

 

How does it feel ultimate truth. Do we get to feel it if we get to reach it??

[Chang dao ling]

8 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Is ultimate truth Metta/Love?

No, love is bound to space and time it is duality. And ultimate truth is beyond duality 

Edited October 8 by Chang dao ling

[Chang dao ling]

8 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

How does it feel ultimate truth. Do we get to feel it if we get to reach it??

As long there is mind there is feeling once mind dissolve there is no feeling. For example in deep sleep you lose your awareness after awakening you feel it was nice sleep. In deep sleep mind temporarily shut down. In  nirvikalpa samadhi mind permanently dissolved so there is no feeling. If you reach nirvikalpa samadhi you become ultimate truth. Some say ultimate truth is eternal bliss.

[Neirong]

On 02.10.2024 at 2:45 PM, NaturaNaturans said:

but do they all, at their core, convey the same message? That message, I interpet, as oneness.

 

Not nearly; a lot of traditions and practices can go as far as having opposite goals.

 

For example, there are spiritual traditions that put their goal at dissolving and dissolution; the idea is to exit the "Samsara circle" by going back to the "source," which would be global consciousness. They view life as suffering and want to cease it permanently. That would mean the destruction of an Ego, Self in the broad sense of this word. You will cease to reincarnate and cease to exist as a standalone entity.

 

Others, like, for example, the Magus tradition, work on developing the self to a level that it starts to transcend life and death, changing bodies, reincarnation is nothing more than changing clothes; the core (Self) does not dramatically change. You are able to continue the work you did in your previous life, in your next life, and so on.

 

Another example is mediumism; think of a sail that is affected by winds or what we could call external signals. For a medium or a channeling practitioner, it is essential to have a less structured/fixed consciousness, that can easily attach itself and be carried away or possessed by external signals.

 

Magi would have an opposite development, where they grow their consciousness and mental body stronger to a point where external signals cannot easily sway them. You become resistant or even immune to entity possession and hypnosis and gain more power to deal with ghosts, spirits, and elementals.

 

8 hours ago, Chang dao ling said:

you become ultimate truth.

 

Humans are an insignificant part of the Universe. When someone speaks about knowing everything, ultimate truths, it just shows how lacking they are in their comprehension capacity. Breathe in and out, turn your head upwards, and look at the sky at night. A finite mortal being can never comprehend infinite reality.

Various teachings also have different starting and end points; for some, the endpoint, the final destination, would be the entry gates to another. Think of it as if you are going to kindergarten, then it ends, you start school, then it ends, then start university, there it ends, and you go for professional work. You cannot immediately begin university if you do not even know how to walk, read, or write.

For example, the state of awakening, the permanent cessation of internal dialogue, and the ability to see the spiritual world and energies would be an entry gate/early condition for magic cultivation. But most people and I have observed a lot of various teachings and traditions and talked with masters and teachers, and they never reach this level, even after 30-plus years of daily training. Some don't even think that is possible. Quite a lot of people, even dedicating their lives to "esoteric" practices, believe it is all a fantasy.

One University professor made an example for how learning works, that is applicable to cultivation as well.

"Imagine climbing a very tall mountain sparing no effort, when you finally arrive at the peak, you feel that you have "won, conquered" your studies, but then you look around, and see that another mountain that is twice as tall and steep, stands right at the peak of the first one, and you could not see it from below. That is an excellent general model for how the knowledge works, now imagine climbing through that cycle 30 times, with each subsequent mountain being twice taller and more complex. You would still know nothing compared to infinite reality, but you would have some perspective if you looked behind.

 

A lot of people don't really want to develop or evolve themselves; they just want to tick a checkbox in their ego that they have "succeeded." Trying to limit the reality to their own perception and capabilities.

[Thrice Daily]

4 hours ago, Neirong said:

A lot of people don't really want to develop or evolve themselves; they just want to tick a checkbox in their ego that they have "succeeded." Trying to limit the reality to their own perception and capabilities.

So cool, your entire post. Nice that you took the time to share that.

 

You finish in a great place. Whatever we think we know, we are probably best to ‘return to the uncarved block’ that’s how I try to keep it. And watch out for the impulses of the forever elusive wu-wei to guide the moment. 
 

Stars are so humbling too aren’t they. When I look up I ponder this. 
 

How we come from stars and will eventually return to them is phenomenal, what journey life is , even in 3D time and space. I love it…

 

Neirong, I’m be real interested to know what roll you think virtue plays in all this when it comes to spiritual paths, cultivation and development.

 

It seems in Taoism De or Virtue is pretty engrained in the earliest writings as being a vital component.

 

What’s your take?

 

 

[Chang dao ling]

16 hours ago, Neirong said:

Various teachings also have different starting and end points; for some, the endpoint, the final destination, would be the entry gates to another

In Buddhism achieving Nirvana is final it is the final destination. In Hinduism achieving nirvikalpa samadhi is final. What you mentioned above is applied to before samadhi States or absorptions.

[moment]

TRUTHS