Is Mother Mary The Same As Guan Yin?

[Thrice Daily]

So, I posted not so long back about the possibility of God Creating the Tao, in a reply it was proposed that perhaps the Tao created God.

 

Last night I had a moment where that made great sense. Perhaps the Tao made God and God then created the Tao that created God even. I’m not ruling that out as paradoxical as it is. 
 

Anyway when all this (existence) started and the first Yin and Yang expression formed. I would put God up there at the top. (If not above the Tao.) 

 

I think I also read someplace that Guan Yin is regarded as the very highest expression of Yin.

 

I also read she is regarded in the same way as Mary. As Mary is also viewed as perfect and the mother of God. The perfect Mother and mother of all Christians, I guess she in her human incarnation is regarded as the highest Yin.

 

Im just spitballing here, all it’s all pretty new to me this so please bear with me if my opinions sound underdeveloped.

 

Have you thought about this? How does it make sense to you? Do you pray to either of these Beings? Do you feel as though the prayers likely go to the same place? Should or shouldn’t be intended to? 
 

Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. Love reading your responses on this ere forum. It’s quite brilliant so thanks in advance for your time. 
 

Best,

Thrice Daily 

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Thrice Daily said:

So, I posted not so long back about the possibility of God Creating the Tao, in a reply it was proposed that perhaps the Tao created God.

 

Chapter 4 The Fathomless Tao.
1.道沖而用之或不盈。
2.淵兮似萬物之宗。
3.挫其銳
4.解其紛，
5.和其光，
6.同其塵，
7.湛兮似或存。
8.吾不知誰之子，
9.象帝之先。 

1. Tao is a vessel and its function seems inexhaustible. 
2. Abyss, aha! It seems like the ancestry of all things.
3/7. Fathomless, aha! Unconscious or conscious.
4/8. I don't know whose son he is,
5/9. It seems like before the heavenly god.

***** Lines 3 through 6 seem to be out of context. They were reappeared in Chapter 56*****
In Chapter 4 of the TTC, Laozi had already defined, in line 5/9, that Tao is existed before any deity or god
 

Edited October 3 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Thrice Daily said:

 

I think I also read someplace that Guan Yin is regarded as the very highest expression of Yin.

FYI Quan Yin is 觀音. Please don't be misunderstood that yin as 陰.

Quan Yin, 觀音, is a male figure. He disguised as a female for the women to worship him. One can tell by the flat chest on all the Statues. 

 

PS It has been known that Quan Yin, 觀音, is as such in the Chinese culture.

Edited October 3 by ChiDragon

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Quote

Jung had always thought that four was the true mystical number, the symbol of wholeness and completion. Christianity’s Trinity was therefore by definition incomplete. As McLynn says, Jung thought “that the dogma of the Assumption clinched the case for four as the mystical number, since it meant that the Catholic Church had tacitly abandoned the Trinity in favour of a quaternity. Although it was not strictly true that there was no feminine element in the Trinity — since Jung often argued that the Holy Ghost was one manifestation of Sophia⁴ — nevertheless the perfection of God had now been fully achieved by God’s union with Sophia in the guise of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Mary was thus in effect a fourth member of the godhead, so that the Trinity was now a quaternity”.

In conclusion, here are a couple of random thoughts. Firstly, Jung’s thinking is more in line with Gnosticism than with Christianity. As June Singer says: “In Christianity the feminine power is subdued, as nature and body are subdued. Where woman is recognized, it is in her biological function as Mother and bearer of the Divine Child, or as virgin, as in religious orders. But as a fully independent and sexual woman, she has little status. In Gnosticism, the feminine is redeemed from the depths of matter and returned to co-equal status with the masculine”⁵.

https://graham-pemberton.medium.com/whats-wrong-with-christianity-carl-jung-and-the-divine-feminine-fbb5dca935f4

[ChiDragon]

Guanyin is originally based on the Hindu god Avalokiteśvara. Avalokiteśvara’s myth spread throughout China during the advent of Buddhism and mixed with local folklore in a process known as syncretism to become the modern day understanding of Guanyin. Though she can take both male and female form, she is most often represented as a woman in Chinese lore.

Ref: https://mythopedia.com/topics/guanyin

[Thrice Daily]

The treasury of unobservable compassion. 
 

Avi was one of my favourites. Indeed interesting to start working with.

 

Although I felt it safer and easier for ego sense to just stick with Tara.  
 

Return to the uncarved block… 

 

People pray to Quan Yin though no? In much the same way as Mary? Or no? In China is there an Eternal mother that is prayed to? In ancient lore, beyond local figures?

[ChiDragon]

6 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

People pray to Quan Yin though no? In much the same way as Mary? Or no? In China is there an Eternal mother that is prayed to? In ancient lore, beyond local figures?

Most often, I said most often. The Chinese women worship Quan Yin is because they wish to bear a male child to carry the name for the family. That was in the male dominant society in ancient Chinese thinking.

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

So, I posted not so long back about the possibility of God Creating the Tao, in a reply it was proposed that perhaps the Tao created God.

 

Last night I had a moment where that made great sense. Perhaps the Tao made God and God then created the Tao that created God even. I’m not ruling that out as paradoxical as it is. 

 

Its a start      - this also ;  ' God created Man , but Man created God first . '   - no, its not a riddle .

 

 

Anyway when all this (existence) started and the first Yin and Yang expression formed. I would put God up there at the top. (If not above the Tao.) 

 

I think I also read someplace that Guan Yin is regarded as the very highest expression of Yin.

 

I also read she is regarded in the same way as Mary. As Mary is also viewed as perfect and the mother of God. The perfect Mother and mother of all Christians, I guess she in her human incarnation is regarded as the highest Yin.

 

Guam Yin is a complex character  but there is a possible 'regarding' similarity . But one must 'remove the cultural clothing ' first .  'Mary' also has high personal 'iconography' aside from her position in Catholicism  as a representation of the manifested anima (in psychology )  - which then gives her virtually world wide recognition (again in local 'cultural clothing ' )  but also  there seems similarities with  the 'Daena' in Zoroastrianism  ; " Some Buddhists believe that when one of their adherents departs from this world, they are placed by Guanyin in the heart of a lotus and then sent to the western pure land of Sukhāvatī.'  similar to the Daena as compassionate guide to the other world and a  guide through the first processes of that . Also , as a few have experienced , Mary, as 'anima' also has an aspect of  Personal Tutilary Diety .... guide and helper through life as well .  She has a high 'Neptunian' aspect and Lunar one  as well , often being depicted with or stranding upon the Moon .

 

In some aspects of  compassion and assistance ( alleviation ? )  she is shown as a patron to mariners and 'all those that travel upon the Sea ' .... remembering that the sea is a symbol of the unconscious , the surface being only that part we can see, representing the conscious mind .    Sometimes its rough navigation  ;

 

' All delicate days and pleasant, all spirits and sorrows are cast

Far out with the foam of the present that sweeps to the surf of the past:

Where beyond the extreme sea-wall, and between the remote sea-gates,

Waste water washes, and tall ships founder, and deep death waits:

Where, mighty with deepening sides, clad about with the seas as with wings,

And impelled of invisible tides, and fulfilled of unspeakable things,

White-eyed and poisonous-finned, shark-toothed and serpentine-curled,

Rolls, under the whitening wind of the future, the wave of the world. "

 

 

Im just spitballing here, all it’s all pretty new to me this so please bear with me if my opinions sound underdeveloped.

 

Have you thought about this? How does it make sense to you? Do you pray to either of these Beings? Do you feel as though the prayers likely go to the same place? Should or shouldn’t be intended to? 

 

 

Yes.  Through experience and also through a life's study and cross reference .  Yes.  Yes.  ( I am not clear about the last question;

'Should or shouldn’t be intended to?' 

'.

Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. Love reading your responses on this ere forum. It’s quite brilliant so thanks in advance for your time. 
 

Best,

Thrice Daily 

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

3 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Do you feel as though the prayers likely go to the same place?

Want a biblical answer?

 

Teaching About Prayer.

5“When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.

6But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

7* In praying, do not babble like the pagans, who think that they will be heard because of their many words.*

8Do not be like them. Your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

The Lord’s Prayer.

9* “This is how you are to pray:c

Our Father in heaven,*

hallowed be your name,

10your kingdom come,*

your will be done,

on earth as in heaven.d

11* e Give us today our daily bread;

12and forgive us our debts,*

as we forgive our debtors;f

13and do not subject us to the final test,*

but deliver us from the evil one.g

14* If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you.h

15But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.
 

 

Look at 8 there. The way I see it, if you pray or meditate on the highest principle, there should be no need for words.

 

Here is another one for you;

 

"O God and Heavenly Father, grant to us the serenity of mind to accept that which cannot be changed, courage to change that which can be changed, and wisdom to know the one from the other through Jesus Christ, our Lord, Amen."

Edited October 3 by NaturaNaturans

[ChiDragon]

8 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Its a start      - this also ;  ' God created Man , but Man created God first . '   - no, its not a riddle .

The same token goes with Tao.
Tao was created by Laozi, then Tao was said to be before god or deity. Tao is on top the universe to monitor how things are created properly. If not, so let it be by following the course of nature. That is what the Laozi's philosophy of Wu Wei(無為) was all about.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

27 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

The same token goes with Tao.
Tao was created by Laozi, then Tao was said to be before god or deity. Tao is on top the universe to monitor how things are created properly. If not, so let it be by following the course of nature. That is what the Laozi's philosophy of Wu Wei(無為) was all about.

Let me repeat something I just read ans commented on in another thread: the chinese translation of the greek term Logos (the Word in english). They translate it as Dao. This was helpfull info for me aswell, since it gave me a lense to understand dao better with. So lets see:

 

 

 

John 1

 

King James Version

 

 

1 In the beginning was the Word/logos/Dao, and the Word/logos/Dao was with God, and the Word/logos/Dao was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 

Another interresting curiousity, is, I belive, that in the works of Aurelius and Epictetus, the term gods and nature are used interchangebly.

 

 

Edited October 3 by NaturaNaturans

[old3bob]

Another take would be to try a different meaning with 'immanent' (and at the same time Transcendent) which is obviously of different import and teaching than as a creator God who is separate from his creation.

[Thrice Daily]

9 hours ago, old3bob said:

Another take would be to try a different meaning with 'immanent' (and at the same time Transcendent) which is obviously of different import and teaching than as a creator God who is separate from his creation.

Interesting, care to elaborate?

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Interesting, care to elaborate?

 

well there are several variations and here is one example:  Quote: "Panentheism views God as both immanent and transcendent. This means that while the entire universe is a part of God, God also exists beyond the universe. As such, this God can be a personal God, a conscious being that manifested the universe with whom one can have a personal relationship 2018"

Edited October 4 by old3bob

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

well there are several variations and here is one example:  Quote: "Panentheism views God as both immanent and transcendent. This means that while the entire universe is a part of God, God also exists beyond the universe. As such, this God can be a personal God, a conscious being that manifested the universe with whom one can have a personal relationship 2018"

I like that very much.

 

Meditations, second book, paragraph III:

III. What comes from the gods is permeated by their providence. The work of fate is not nature foreign, nor is it different from the web that is woven by fortune. Everything flows from there. The necessary comes from it, and what benefits the entire universe that you are a part of. What all-nature gives, and what serves to sustain it, is also good for every part of nature. The world is sustained by change, changes in the things that the elements form, as much as the elements themselves. Let that be enough for you if you accept these teachings. Free yourself from your thirst for books, so that you do not die with rebellion in your heart, but sincerely content and with a heart grateful to the gods.

[Thrice Daily]

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

well there are several variations and here is one example:  Quote: "Panentheism views God as both immanent and transcendent. This means that while the entire universe is a part of God, God also exists beyond the universe. As such, this God can be a personal God, a conscious being that manifested the universe with whom one can have a personal relationship 2018"

Love that, I've started to synergise a gratitude practice with my qigong which is enhancing it I think. Blending the ideas of asking God for guidance through the signs in natural happenings and wuwei. 

 

I'm integrating Christianity slowly into my framework of understanding. The experience of it is distinct from Qigong but I think they can be integrated, should the individuals experience allow it.

 

It's taken me around 5 years to really integrate the ideas and understanding of the sacraments and theology (and history, schurch, saints etc) to an acceptable level. 

 

I'm interested to know if people pray to guanyin in a similar way to Mary, it seems like I'm off track with that analogy though... 

Edited October 4 by Thrice Daily

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

11 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

I'm interested to know if people pray to guanyin in a similar way to Mary, it seems like I'm off track with that analogy though... 

alright, let me just share my take on this. I stress that it is my own, I am not talking on behalf of anyone. But I see prayer as not to different from meditating on a concept. Giving thanks, maybe, and maybe you direct that towards God, or nature or the universe or what have you, but I really do not think it matters. Nor do I think the words used matters. Do I have to tell the gods anything, and do they speak Norwegian or english?

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Ty for introducing me to something New, tho:

 

Avalokiteśvara was translated into Guanyin or Guanshiyin 觀世音 in Chinese, which means “the one who hears (the world’s) sounds” – in the sense of hearing the world’s prayers – and has become the most important bodhisattva in Chinese and East Asian Buddhism. These two names were later borrowed into Japanese as Kannon and Kanzeon, respectively.
 

It is good wording, I belive. Not suggesting that I have any thing to say on it after reading a paragraph fron wiki, however.

[Thrice Daily]

I've got a slightly different perspective. I feel that praying to God via Jesus Story, will have God shine through that message and via the Holy Spirit, there is a certain quality to the power being accessed. The energy of the holy spirit seems somehow distinct and I'm quite sure it comes through the medium of the story and life/death of the mystic that we know as Jesus. 

 

I'm pretty sure all lineages and traditions that involve teachings from specific teachers, function in a similar way to this And as such all have with them a certain quality to the energy And power accessed.

 

As well as skills and abilities, be them physical, mental etc 

 

I'm sure it's still God's light shining through it and it's the source of creation that powers it all, it just is light filtered through different lenses depending on which story you hold up to that light so you can experience through it. 

 

Or lineage.

 

If the stories of the healing that Jesus did were even partially true he was working with some serious power and sending all those apostles out to heal in his name was serious business, even before doing the whole cross scenario it seems he was aligned with a very well concentrated energy. 

 

I think it's very easy to take it for granted with the church being so well established and it just being the norm growing up. Paying it considerable thought as an adult though, it's a seriously mystical situation  . I think...

Edited October 4 by Thrice Daily

[Taomeow]

Wikipedia lists 135 pages of mother goddesses from different cultures and time periods.  

Mother Mary didn't make the list.  (God is decidedly male in that religion, no room for any goddesses.)   

Guanyin, however, did. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mother_goddesses

 

Edited October 4 by Taomeow

[Nungali]

'' A religion without Goddess is like a tribe without children .''

[ChiDragon]

22 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Let me repeat something I just read ans commented on in another thread: the chinese translation of the greek term Logos (the Word in english). They translate it as Dao. This was helpfull info for me aswell, since it gave me a lense to understand dao better with. So lets see:

 

 

 

John 1

 

King James Version

 

 

1 In the beginning was the Word/logos/Dao, and the Word/logos/Dao was with God, and the Word/logos/Dao was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 

Another interresting curiousity, is, I belive, that in the works of Aurelius and Epictetus, the term gods and nature are used interchangebly.

 

 

I am sorry it came out that way. That was not what the TTC says. Apparently, someone did not read the whole TTC throughly to relate all the chapters. There are few chapters have good description of Tao that cannot be ignored.

[blue eyed snake]

Quan yin has a place in my living room, i never pray to her though. In fact I never pray at all.

Can very well imagine that christian people think she must be the mirror image of their mother Mary.

 

when I remember well she was on her way to being ready with karma and not returning to earth when she heard the suffering, the crying of the people ( not the prayers)  and turned back to ease their pain. That message sort of speaks to me, and although I am aware of the way she seemed to change her gender when she went from india to china, personally I like the androgynous appearance, that suits me.

 

so she sits in my livingroom and reminds me daily of the importance of compassion.

 

when you look at the little statuette, you see the vase she's carrying points outwards and to me it seems that symbolizes the way compassion gushes from the heartregion.

 

--having problems getting pic uploaded-

 

 

Edited October 4 by blue eyed snake

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

20 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

having problems getting pic uploaded-

Get back to us, you got my imagination going.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Sorry, but if this does not fit here, it fits nowhere: