Seeing, Recognising & Maintaining One's Enlightening Potential II: Open Tradition Edition

[forestofclarity]

Like this thread, but open to all traditions. 

 

 

Self Liberation Through Seeing with Naked Awareness, trans John Myrdhin Reynolds

 

As for this sparkling awareness, which is called "mind," Even though one says that it exists, it does not actually exist. (On the other hand) as a source, it is the origin of the diversity of all the bliss of Nirvana and all of the sorrow of Samsara. And as for it’s being something desirable; it is cherished alike in the Eleven Vehicles.

 

With respect to its having a name, the various names that are applied to it are inconceivable (in their numbers).

 

Some call it "the nature of the mind" or "mind itself."

 

Some Tirthikas call it by the name Atman or "the Self."

 

The Sravakas call it the doctrine of Anatman or "the absence of a self."

 

The Chittamatrins call it by the name Chitta or "the Mind."

 

Some call it the Prajnaparamita or "the Perfection of Wisdom."

 

Some call it the name Tathagata-garbha or "the embryo of Buddhahood."

 

Some call it by the name Mahamudra or "the Great Symbol."

 

Some call it by the name "the Unique Sphere."

 

Some call it by the name Dharmadhatu or "the dimension of Reality."

 

Some call it by the name Alaya or "the basis of everything."

 

And some simply call it by the name "ordinary awareness." 

[stirling]

27 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

Like this thread, but open to all traditions. 

 

 

Self Liberation Through Seeing with Naked Awareness, trans John Myrdhin Reynolds

 

As for this sparkling awareness, which is called "mind," Even though one says that it exists, it does not actually exist. (On the other hand) as a source, it is the origin of the diversity of all the bliss of Nirvana and all of the sorrow of Samsara. And as for it’s being something desirable; it is cherished alike in the Eleven Vehicles.

 

With respect to its having a name, the various names that are applied to it are inconceivable (in their numbers).

 

Some call it "the nature of the mind" or "mind itself."

 

Some Tirthikas call it by the name Atman or "the Self."

 

The Sravakas call it the doctrine of Anatman or "the absence of a self."

 

The Chittamatrins call it by the name Chitta or "the Mind."

 

Some call it the Prajnaparamita or "the Perfection of Wisdom."

 

Some call it the name Tathagata-garbha or "the embryo of Buddhahood."

 

Some call it by the name Mahamudra or "the Great Symbol."

 

Some call it by the name "the Unique Sphere."

 

Some call it by the name Dharmadhatu or "the dimension of Reality."

 

Some call it by the name Alaya or "the basis of everything."

 

And some simply call it by the name "ordinary awareness." 

 

As disparate as these might sound, my experience in reviewing the literature from many or most of the traditions is that they absolutely point to the same understanding (though Unique Sphere is new to me  ). It could argued to be practically ALL of those, and yet it really can't be labeled. 

 

The work at its core is remarkably simple: Realize that what you are is the simple awareness that pervades all experience, though it can, has, and will be complicated by "man" over and over again. 

[Thrice Daily]

Seeing,

The somatic , the senses, actively being aware. Am I seeing or are things being seen, is my awareness outside or am I able to keep it more inside. What do I see, how do I Judge?

Recognising

watching, being, finding more space for action instead of reactions, Being more mindful, more meditative, maybe being able to make time for formal meditation again. Break some old habits, make some new habits. Become more conscientious 

& Maintaining

Having daily practice, expanding time and intensity in practice slowly, reducing or eliminating sugar and booze completely, reducing gossip and idle talk, fostering more silence and internal ease. Listening to intuition and letting go… fine tune instead of breaking in with quick ego driven action

One's Enlightening Potential II: Open Tradition Edition

my personal potential is set by…;

morning tendon Changing practice, a little Tai Chi afterwards. (its getting colder now)

 

Weight training in evening , quite heavy, push, pull, legs split… 8 or so reps a set. 3-4 sets of each compound lift with nice slow negatives and some rest pause sets. 
 

And prayer/meditation at night with an emphasis on Gratitude for all things…

 

 

Edited October 10 by Thrice Daily

[dwai]

10 hours ago, stirling said:

 

As disparate as these might sound, my experience in reviewing the literature from many or most of the traditions is that they absolutely point to the same understanding (though Unique Sphere is new to me  ). It could argued to be practically ALL of those, and yet it really can't be labeled. 

 

The work at its core is remarkably simple: Realize that what you are is the simple awareness that pervades all experience, though it can, has, and will be complicated by "man" over and over again. 

This! 

[old3bob]

  14 hours ago, stirling said:

 

As disparate as these might sound, my experience in reviewing the literature from many or most of the traditions is that they absolutely point to the same understanding (though Unique Sphere is new to me  ). It could argued to be practically ALL of those, and yet it really can't be labeled. 

 

The work at its core is remarkably simple: Realize that what you are is the simple awareness that pervades all experience, though it can, has, and will be complicated by "man" over and over again. 

__________________________________________________________________________________

 

How can you say that when the dualistic schools and masters absolutely do not point the same way as non-dualistic schools and masters!

 

And its a stretch or bridge too far for Buddhist masters to say that they (and their doctrine or literature) point the same way that Hindu Guru's (and their doctrine or literature) point. (or switch that around)  And neither will drop or deny their teachings for the other one.  Granted some common ground is recognized by both but that is as far as it goes per Buddhist and Hindu masters seeing eye to eye on everything. (or seldom if ever getting together for tea and biscuits, etc.) 

(And some of those in Abrahamic religions are so far apart that they are willing to kill each other for their beliefs and how they point)

 

New age folks espouse a universal warm and fuzzy that does not exist in,  nor is taught or pointed to in non-New age literature, even though that idea of awareness is a good one.  

 

 

Edited October 10 by old3bob

[stirling]

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

How can you say that when the dualistic schools and masters absolutely do not point the same way as non-dualistic schools and masters!

 

And its a stretch or bridge too far for Buddhist masters to say that they (and their doctrine or literature) point the same way that Hindu Guru's (and their doctrine or literature) point. (or switch that around)  And neither will drop or deny their teachings for the other one.  Granted some common ground is recognized by both but that is as far as it goes per Buddhist and Hindu masters seeing eye to eye on everything. (or seldom if ever getting together for tea and biscuits, etc.) 

(And some of those in Abrahamic religions are so far apart that they are willing to kill each other for their beliefs and how they point)

 

New age folks espouse a universal warm and fuzzy that does not exist in,  nor is taught or pointed to in non-New age literature, even though that idea of awareness is a good one.

 

This is going to be complicated, so bear with me:

 

Enlightenment is non-dual.

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

This is going to be complicated, so bear with me:

 

Enlightenment is non-dual.

 

which is also a pointer that is not in all spiritual type literature as you implied earlier, thus in a way you have confirmed the quandary or conundrum along these lines among various peoples.

Edited October 10 by old3bob

[stirling]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

which is also a pointer that is not in all spiritual type literature as you implied earlier, thus in a way you have confirmed the quandary or conundrum along these lines among various peoples.

 

I said:

 

20 hours ago, stirling said:

As disparate as these might sound, my experience in reviewing the literature from many or most of the traditions is that they absolutely point to the same understanding (though Unique Sphere is new to me  ). It could argued to be practically ALL of those, and yet it really can't be labeled. 

 

I stand by my statement. I even suspect that Jesus is an example of an enlightened person, and that there are hints of non-dual teaching in the gnostic tradition, and that the Sufis correctly apprehend the non-dual aspects of the Islamic tradition, amongst others.

[old3bob]

I stand by mine also without it being suspect of dubious new age like projections... if you want to get transcendental that is fine but being so in no way means that the conundrums don't exist down here on earth among billions of us.   

Edited October 11 by old3bob

[stirling]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

I stand by mine also without it being suspect of dubious new age like projections... if you want to get transcendental that is fine but being so in way means that the conundrums don't exist down here on earth among billions of us.   

 

I think this is a discussion of enlightenment rather than a discussion of traditions. Enlightenment itself respects no boundary, structure, or conceptual ideation. It is why the Buddha said that we discard the teachings when we reach the far shore, and why Hui Hai (Cha'n Master) said:

 

Quote

“The awakened mind is turned upside down and does not accord even with the Buddha-wisdom.” - Hui Hai

 

How the literature refers to it or doesn't isn't of consequence ultimately - it is untouchable by such things... timeless, stainless, and perfect. It is no surprise that some people, or written traditions will get it wrong, have all of the non-duality drummed out of them, or hidden in a secretive gnostic tradition over time. 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

I think this is a discussion of enlightenment rather than a discussion of traditions. Enlightenment itself respects no boundary, structure, or conceptual ideation. It is why the Buddha said that we discard the teachings when we reach the far shore, and why Hui Hai (Cha'n Master said:

 

How the literature refers to it or doesn't isn't of consequence ultimately - it is untouchable by such things... timeless, stainless, and perfect. It is no surprise that some people, or written traditions will get it wrong, have all of the non-duality drummed out of them, or hidden in a secretive gnostic tradition over time. 

 

ok, but did the historic Buddha imply somewhere per recorded doctrine that without the right teaching (namely Buddhism) that one is not  going past the 7th or 8th liberations like those that his ascetic teachers reached, thus not reach the "far shore'? 

 

Also are there not those that go and come back,  (so to speak) thus in effect set down the teachings when they go and pick them  up when they come back?    

 

"it is untouchable by such things... timeless, stainless, and perfect"  which also sounds like eternal, a word and meaning that many Buddhists reject  if I remember correctly?

 

 

Edited October 11 by old3bob

[stirling]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

ok, but did the historic Buddha imply somewhere per recorded doctrine that without the right teaching (namely Buddhism) that one is not  going past the 7th or 8th liberations like those that his ascetic teachers reached, thus not reach the "far shore'? 

 

Also are there not those that go and come back,  (so to speak) thus in effect set down the teachings when they go and pick them  up when they come back?    

 

"it is untouchable by such things... timeless, stainless, and perfect"  which also sounds like eternal, a word and meaning that many Buddhists reject  if I remember correctly?

 

Recorded doctrine? Which Buddhism? Where? The Buddha would weep openly if he thought people were arguing about what he said or didn't say. Honestly... fuck all of that. Enlightenment doesn't give a shit about which "liberations" a person "attains". That is a fiction. No person "attains" anything worth having and never has. Right now all phenomena are liberating themselves moment to moment, it is our story about them that is the bondage.

 

Really there is only ONE liberation. 

 

The moment you realize that you have never been separate from the phenomena you are surrounded by, and that the part of it you partitioned into a fictitious "self" and told all of your stories about was a ridiculous lie that has only made you miserable, it is complete. There is a moment where it is clear that the whole shebang is done, and it can't be unseen. 

 

There is nowhere to go or come back from. Anything that comes and goes isn't it. Go until you hit the STOP sign. Make a right at "permanent insight into no-self", and suddenly the horizon is everywhere. It's right HERE. Eternity means that this impossible moment of being never ends and never has. What you are is the deathless, and birthless. It means there is no separation, no other place to be, no separate self apart from it all. Just this, happening now, naked and clean. 

 

The emptiness (Self) is the thing that never ends. It is what you have always been and are inseparable from.

[Tommy]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Really there is only ONE liberation. 

 

I agree. There may be 88 thousand different ways to reach Nirvana. There is only one liberation. If mine was different from yours then it can not be liberation. It can not be the truth in that case. In lies, there are many. In truth, there is only one.

Edited October 11 by Tommy

[Thrice Daily]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Recorded doctrine? Which Buddhism? Where? The Buddha would weep openly if he thought people were arguing about what he said or didn't say. Honestly... fuck all of that. Enlightenment doesn't give a shit about which "liberations" a person "attains". That is a fiction. No person "attains" anything worth having and never has. Right now all phenomena are liberating themselves moment to moment, it is our story about them that is the bondage.

 

Really there is only ONE liberation. 

 

The moment you realize that you have never been separate from the phenomena you are surrounded by, and that the part of it you partitioned into a fictitious "self" and told all of your stories about was a ridiculous lie that has only made you miserable, it is complete. There is a moment where it is clear that the whole shebang is done, and it can't be unseen. 

 

There is nowhere to go or come back from. Anything that comes and goes isn't it. Go until you hit the STOP sign. Make a right at "permanent insight into no-self", and suddenly the horizon is everywhere. It's right HERE. Eternity means that this impossible moment of being never ends and never has. What you are is the deathless, and birthless. It means there is no separation, no other place to be, no separate self apart from it all. Just this, happening now, naked and clean. 

 

The emptiness (Self) is the thing that never ends. It is what you have always been and are inseparable from.

I love the way in the Geshe Kelsang’s New Kadampa Centre song recording, how they say the lyric “Everything Becomes Emptiness” I’ll never forget that line.

Edited October 11 by Thrice Daily

[old3bob]

13 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Recorded doctrine? Which Buddhism? Where? The Buddha would weep openly if he thought people were arguing about what he said or didn't say. Honestly... fuck all of that. Enlightenment doesn't give a shit about which "liberations" a person "attains". That is a fiction. No person "attains" anything worth having and never has. Right now all phenomena are liberating themselves moment to moment, it is our story about them that is the bondage.

 

Really there is only ONE liberation. 

 

The moment you realize that you have never been separate from the phenomena you are surrounded by, and that the part of it you partitioned into a fictitious "self" and told all of your stories about was a ridiculous lie that has only made you miserable, it is complete. There is a moment where it is clear that the whole shebang is done, and it can't be unseen. 

 

There is nowhere to go or come back from. Anything that comes and goes isn't it. Go until you hit the STOP sign. Make a right at "permanent insight into no-self", and suddenly the horizon is everywhere. It's right HERE. Eternity means that this impossible moment of being never ends and never has. What you are is the deathless, and birthless. It means there is no separation, no other place to be, no separate self apart from it all. Just this, happening now, naked and clean. 

 

The emptiness (Self) is the thing that never ends. It is what you have always been and are inseparable from.

 

Wow, getting testy are we?  Throwing the baby out with the bathwater are we?  Discarding/demeaning the Buddha's teachings are we?

Playing games about the well established and well respected doctrine that points to the 8 liberations (or steps) are we?  Using adharmic words from the nether world which go against the Nobel 8 fold path (or right speech) are we?  Awe shucks.  Thumping people over the head with the absolute are we? Sounds more like some left turns to me.  

 

There is evolution and beyond evolution.  There is the immanent and the transcendent.  Om, Om, Om

 

P.S. I'm not a qualified Buddhist on anything but I would defend peoples right to be so.

 

Edited October 11 by old3bob

[Thrice Daily]

[stirling]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

Wow, getting testy are we?  Throwing the baby out with the bathwater are we?  Discarding/demeaning the Buddha's teachings are we?

 

No, no, and no.  It is a complete joy to talk about the nature of things unfettered, and what I am saying in no way demeans the Buddha's teachings. There have been (and ARE) countless buddhas and arhats throughout history. The body of their teachings is all of apiece. All teachings about practices are useful until you actually see where they point - then they are unnecessary, as the buddha himself shares:

 

Quote

The Blessed One said: "Suppose a man were traveling along a path. He would see a great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. The thought would occur to him, 'Here is this great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. What if I were to gather grass, twigs, branches, & leaves and, having bound them together to make a raft, were to cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with my hands & feet?' Then the man, having gathered grass, twigs, branches, & leaves, having bound them together to make a raft, would cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with his hands & feet. [7] Having crossed over to the further shore, he might think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having hoisted it on my head or carrying it on my back, go wherever I like?' What do you think, monks: Would the man, in doing that, be doing what should be done with the raft?"

"No, lord."

"And what should the man do in order to be doing what should be done with the raft? There is the case where the man, having crossed over, would think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having dragged it on dry land or sinking it in the water, go wherever I like?' In doing this, he would be doing what should be done with the raft. In the same way, monks, I have taught the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the Dhamma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dhammas, to say nothing of non-Dhammas."

- Buddha, Alagaddupama Sutta

 

 

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

Playing games about the well established and well respected doctrine that points to the 8 liberations (or steps) are we?  Using adharmic words from the nether world which go against the Nobel 8 fold path (or right speech) are we? 

 

Also, no. Not at all. The Eightfold path is impossible for a normal person to perfect. The only way to accomplish its perfection is by having the prajnaparamita, which comes with complete insight into the nature of mind. See my last post, which is all about it.

 

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

Awe shucks.  Thumping people over the head with the absolute are we? Sounds more like some left turns to me.

 

I'm sorry if you feel thumped Bob. 

 

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

There is evolution and beyond evolution.  There is the immanent and the transcendent.  Om, Om, Om

 

They aren't separate things. It is all Brahman, thank Jesus. 

[old3bob]

water and oil do not mix,  try as we might to be correlation experts.

[stirling]

27 minutes ago, old3bob said:

water and oil do not mix,  try as we might to be correlation experts.

 

Water and oil are Brahman... inseparable.

[old3bob]

3 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Water and oil are Brahman... inseparable.

 

it's ok if you  give it a rest,  and also own your earlier comments that you then denied with an "above it all" come back.

Edited October 11 by old3bob

[stirling]

30 minutes ago, old3bob said:

it's ok if you  give it a rest,  and also own your earlier comments.

 

Bob, I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. I have no problem owning any of my comments. 

 

Give it a rest?  I'm trying to remember who it was that engaged me in this side conversation... oh yeah, it was you!

 

In a few hours I am planning a nice nap. Works for you?

 

[Thrice Daily]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

I have no problem owning any of my comments. 

I quite liked it to be honest, you did go off on a bit of a mad one, but we all do that from time to time.

 

Can reach some pretty good ways to present truths in that state. 
 

I love this forum, I remember working in the kitchen at Vipassana centre

and on a piece off paper on a wall by the prep area (where we would do all the shredding of cabbages by hand on a grater)
 

it said , Buddha dictated to Ananda ,

 

“no discussing, no theorising, no speculating” 

 

Ananda must have found that quite funny when he wrote it down.

Edited October 11 by Thrice Daily

[stirling]

4 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

I quite liked it to be honest, you did go off on a bit of a mad one, but we all do that from time to time.

 

It might sound mad... but from here it feels about a clear as it gets. If you really read the Tsin Tsin Ming or even the Heart or Diamond Cutter Sutra you find the same brand of madness.

 

4 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

I love this forum, I remember working in the kitchen at Vipassana centre

and on a piece off paper on a wall by the prep area (where we would do all the shredding of cabbages by hand on a grater)
 

it said , Buddha dictated to Ananda ,

 

“no discussing, no theorising, no speculating” 

 

Ananda must have found that quite funny when he wrote it down.

 

 

 

Only real experience matters. The rest is conjecture.

 

-

 

In the Zen center I used to darken the doors of they had a sign in Japanese style calligraphy in the kitchens: 

 

Quote

“What is practice?”
            
The cook:

“Everywhere, nothing is hidden.” - Dogen

 

[silent thunder]

@stirling 

 

dropping pearls mate!

[Thrice Daily]

9 hours ago, stirling said:

 

 

In the Zen center I used to darken the doors of they had a sign in Japanese style calligraphy in the kitchens: 

Do you do any physical practices like martial arts or purely stick with still meditation?