Seeing, Recognising & Maintaining One's Enlightening Potential II: Open Tradition Edition

[stirling]

6 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Do you do any physical practices like martial arts or purely stick with still meditation?

 

I did some Tai Chi as a teenager, but that's about it. Meditation is my primary practice, sitting maybe 40 minutes a day, and walking for an hour or so... also non-meditation all day. Working on dream yoga. 

[Ascetic]

Has anyone tried listening to the loudest sound? That feels like the best practice to me, it takes awareness and effort even outside of Lotus/other poses.

[Mark Foote]

On 10/10/2024 at 5:08 PM, old3bob said:

 

ok, but did the historic Buddha imply somewhere per recorded doctrine that without the right teaching (namely Buddhism) that one is not  going past the 7th or 8th liberations like those that his ascetic teachers reached, thus not reach the "far shore'? 

 

Also are there not those that go and come back,  (so to speak) thus in effect set down the teachings when they go and pick them  up when they come back?    

 

"it is untouchable by such things... timeless, stainless, and perfect"  which also sounds like eternal, a word and meaning that many Buddhists reject  if I remember correctly?

 

 

Something I'm writing now for my own site, which I hope speaks to the issue you raise:
 

In one of the sermons of the Pali Canon, Gautama the Buddha described “seven (types of) persons existing in the world”.

 

I’m going to quote from the sermon the first two “(types of) persons”, and then explain the terminology:
 

And which, monks, is the person who is freed both ways? As to this, monks, some person is abiding, having apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal having transcended material shapes; and having seen by means of wisdom his cankers are utterly destroyed. I, monks, do not say of this (person) that there is something to be done through diligence. What is the reason for this? It has been done by (them) through diligence, (they) could not become negligent.

 

And which, monks, is the person who is freed by means of intuitive wisdom? As to this, monks, some person is abiding without having apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal having transcended material shapes; yet, having seen by means of wisdom (their) cankers are utterly destroyed. This, monks, is called the person who is freed by means of intuitive wisdom. I, monks, do not say of this (person) that there is something to be done through diligence. What is the reason for this? It has been done by (them) through diligence, (they) could not become negligent…

 

(MN 70 [Pali Text Society vol. 2 pp 151-154]; more on “The Deliverances”, DN 15 Mahanidanasutta, Pali Text Society DN ii section 35 pp 68-69; pronouns replaced, emphasis added)

 

“Those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal…” are the last five of the nine states of concentration that Gautama regularly taught. He would generally describe a set of three or four “corporeal” concentrations, and then describe the set of five “incorporeal” concentrations. 

 

“Corporeal” is defined in the Oxford dictionary as “relating to a person's body”, and the four “corporeal” concentrations culminate in a cessation of volition in the activity of the body (particularly a cessation of volition in the activity of inhalation and exhalation).

 

About “those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal…”, Gautama said very little. My understanding is that they have to do with the influence of things that are beyond the range of the senses in experience, and so are said to be “incorporeal”, or not physical. The “peaceful Deliverances” culminate in a cessation of volition in the activity of the mind (particularly in feeling and perceiving).

 

The first “(type of) person” was “freed both ways”, apparently a reference to the cessation of volition in the action of both the body and the mind.

 

The three “cankers” were said to be “sense-pleasures”, “becoming”, and “ignorance” (MN III 121, PTS Vol. III pp 151-2). When the cankers are “destroyed”, the roots of the craving for sense-pleasures, the roots of the craving “to continue, to survive, to be” (Bhikkyu Sujato), and the roots of the craving for what is delusion are destroyed.

 

In the lecture about the “seven (types of) person”, Gautama went on to name five more “(types of) person”, all of whom had “seen by means of wisdom”, yet their cankers were not “utterly destroyed”—consequently, he said, “there is (yet) something to be done through diligence” for them.

 

There are schools of modern Buddhism that regard concentration as an ancillary practice in the attainment of wisdom, as a useful precursor to the attainment of insight. In the sermon above, Gautama acknowledged that there are indeed those who are “freed by means of intuitive wisdom”.  Such “persons” are freed in spite of their not having experienced the “the peaceful Deliverances…”, but so far as I know Gautama did not teach a path to such a freedom.

 

The paths that he did teach, eight-fold for the learner and ten-fold for the adept, both included “right concentration” among the elements.  
 

 

What I'm up to is focusing on the four "corporeal" concentrations, bearing in mind:

 

… a good (person] reflects thus: “Lack of desire even for the attainment of the first meditation has been spoken of by [me]; for whatever (one) imagines it to be, it is otherwise” [Similarly for the second, third, and fourth initial meditative states, and for the attainments of the first four further meditative states]. 

 

(MN III 113 (42-45), © Pali Text Society Vol III p 92-94)

 

As I explain in the piece I'm writing, I do because:

 

Part of the mindfulness that made up Gautama’s way of living was:

Contemplating cessation I shall breathe in. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe out.

 

(SN 54.1; Pali Text Society vol. V p 275-276)

 

 

The contemplation of “cessation” while breathing in and while breathing out is particularly conducive to “the cessation of inhalation and exhalation”, a state in which the activity of the body takes place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness.

I think I can say that most Buddhist teachers have not realized the complete destruction of the cankers. Nevertheless, I believe many of them regularly practice a concentration that includes “the cessation of inhalation and exhalation”, and a mindfulness similar to the mindfulness that Gautama declared was his way of living.

They do so because, as Gautama declared, that way of living:

 

… if cultivated and made much of, is something peaceful and choice, something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living too.

 

(SN 54.9, Pali Text Society SN vol. V p 285; “mindfulness of” substituted for Woodward’s “intent concentration on”, “mindfulness of” as in Horner’s translation of MN 118)

 

 

Maybe better to point at a way of living that doesn't necessarily require the attainment of all of the "incorporeal" Deliverances, and the complete destruction of the cankers.  

I guess some may say that they are freed by "intuitive wisdom", and that Gautama's teachings are really irrelevant, that having seen by means of wisdom through "intuitive wisdom" is where it's at.  Who am I, to disagree!

 

Then again, what of what they really teach has to do with Gautama the Buddha?

 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 09:53 PM by Mark Foote

[old3bob]

"...Maybe better to point at a way of living that doesn't necessarily require the attainment of all of the "incorporeal" Deliverances, and the complete destruction of the cankers.  

I guess some may say that they are freed by "intuitive wisdom", and that Gautama's teachings are really irrelevant, that having seen by means of wisdom through "intuitive wisdom" is where it's at.  Who am I, to disagree!

 

Then again, what of what they really teach has to do with Gautama the Buddha?  By Mark Foote

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Great points....Btw. the idea about setting down the teachings (or raft) to me when reaching the far shore does not mean destroying the teachings (or raft) as being irrelevant... for who is one to say or do so?   I'd also say (with very limited experience) that some  masters may step beyond of the 'workings of the "wheel of life' (thus a cessation) but if and when they step back in they still need to work with and in that matrix. thus not try to destroy it.  As for those that do not step back in they have completely finished their work never to come back, although leaving pointers (like rafts) behind for others to use.  I take it that Buddhist doctrine speaks directly of the historic Buddha stepping through the 8 liberations and also reaching  "beyond the beyond", so in a sense stepping in and out of the of the eight , but in the end He finished his work and was not to come back...

 

Edited Sunday at 10:46 AM by old3bob

[doc benway]

On 10/11/2024 at 2:58 PM, Thrice Daily said:

I quite liked it to be honest, you did go off on a bit of a mad one, but we all do that from time to time.

 

On 10/11/2024 at 7:41 PM, stirling said:

 

It might sound mad... but from here it feels about a clear as it gets.

 

Crazy wisdom, gotta love it!

 

[stirling]

On 10/13/2024 at 3:23 AM, old3bob said:

Great points....Btw. the idea about setting down the teachings (or raft) to me when reaching the far shore does not mean destroying the teachings (or raft) as being irrelevant... for who is one to say or do so?

 

The raft metaphor is originally the Buddha's so I would say it is for him to "say or do". He doesn't say to DESTROY teachings. Why would you do that? He says that , once there is realization, you set the teachings DOWN. You no longer cling to them.

 

Anyway, there have been any number of buddhas that have their own teachings that perfectly accord with the buddha's teachings. Read some Padmasambhava, for example... or some Dogen, or Bodhidharma amongst many. They don't sound the same, or even walk under the buddhist banner, but all of the content is there if you read it. 

 

On 10/13/2024 at 3:23 AM, old3bob said:

I'd also say (with very limited experience) that some masters may step beyond of the 'workings of the "wheel of life' (thus a cessation) but if and when they step back in they still need to work with and in that matrix. thus not try to destroy it.

 

Masters don't destroy anything... maybe delusions?  "Masters" operate in the world to liberate other beings. To do that it usually most effective to be where they are. 

 

On 10/13/2024 at 3:23 AM, old3bob said:

As for those that do not step back in they have completely finished their work never to come back, although leaving pointers (like rafts) behind for others to use. I take it that Buddhist doctrine speaks directly of the historic Buddha stepping through the 8 liberations and also reaching  "beyond the beyond", so in a sense stepping in and out of the of the eight , but in the end He finished his work and was not to come back...

 

I think the work never finishes. Buddhas are appearing in the world all the time out of the ashes of sentient beings. The next named incarnation of the Buddha is supposedly Maitreya... should be stopping by some time soon? I wouldn't wait. There are perfectly good buddhas all over the place. Once you know what a buddha sounds like you'll find yourself tripping over them everywhere.

[forestofclarity]

To study the buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of realization remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.

 

Dogen, Genjo Koan, trans Aitken and Tanahashi

[forestofclarity]

"Now you're probably all wondering what this unborn Buddha-mind is like. Well, while you're sitting there facing me and trying to catch what it is I'm saying, if the bark of a dog or the cry of a street vendor should find its way in here from outside the temple walls, though you're listening to me, each of you would hear it, even though you had no intention to do so, thanks to the working of the Buddha-mind, which hears and understands in the Unborn. The Buddha-mind, unborn and illuminating all things with perfect clarity, is like a mirror, standing clear and spotlessly polished. A mirror, as you know, reflects anything that's before it. Whatever's placed in front of it never fails to be reflected, though the mirror has no idea or intention of doing so. And when the object is taken away, the mirror doesn't reflect it any longer, though it makes no decision to cease reflecting. Now, that's just how the unborn Buddha-mind works. You see and hear all things, no matter what they are, although you haven't generated a single thought to see or hear them, because of the vital working of the unborn Buddha-mind each of you received at birth." 

 

Bankei, the Hoshin-Hi Sermons, trans. Waddell

[forestofclarity]

And randomly from the Tripura Rahasa, trans Tigunait:

 

"Just as the reflection is inseparable from the mirror, this entire reflected universe is inseparable from consciousness."