Seeing, Recognising & Maintaining One's Enlightening Potential II: Open Tradition Edition

[stirling]

6 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Do you do any physical practices like martial arts or purely stick with still meditation?

 

I did some Tai Chi as a teenager, but that's about it. Meditation is my primary practice, sitting maybe 40 minutes a day, and walking for an hour or so... also non-meditation all day. Working on dream yoga. 

[Ascetic]

Has anyone tried listening to the loudest sound? That feels like the best practice to me, it takes awareness and effort even outside of Lotus/other poses.

[Mark Foote]

On 10/10/2024 at 5:08 PM, old3bob said:

 

ok, but did the historic Buddha imply somewhere per recorded doctrine that without the right teaching (namely Buddhism) that one is not  going past the 7th or 8th liberations like those that his ascetic teachers reached, thus not reach the "far shore'? 

 

Also are there not those that go and come back,  (so to speak) thus in effect set down the teachings when they go and pick them  up when they come back?    

 

"it is untouchable by such things... timeless, stainless, and perfect"  which also sounds like eternal, a word and meaning that many Buddhists reject  if I remember correctly?

 

 

Something I'm writing now for my own site, which I hope speaks to the issue you raise:
 

In one of the sermons of the Pali Canon, Gautama the Buddha described “seven (types of) persons existing in the world”.

 

I’m going to quote from the sermon the first two “(types of) persons”, and then explain the terminology:
 

And which, monks, is the person who is freed both ways? As to this, monks, some person is abiding, having apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal having transcended material shapes; and having seen by means of wisdom his cankers are utterly destroyed. I, monks, do not say of this (person) that there is something to be done through diligence. What is the reason for this? It has been done by (them) through diligence, (they) could not become negligent.

 

And which, monks, is the person who is freed by means of intuitive wisdom? As to this, monks, some person is abiding without having apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal having transcended material shapes; yet, having seen by means of wisdom (their) cankers are utterly destroyed. This, monks, is called the person who is freed by means of intuitive wisdom. I, monks, do not say of this (person) that there is something to be done through diligence. What is the reason for this? It has been done by (them) through diligence, (they) could not become negligent…

 

(MN 70 [Pali Text Society vol. 2 pp 151-154]; more on “The Deliverances”, DN 15 Mahanidanasutta, Pali Text Society DN ii section 35 pp 68-69; pronouns replaced, emphasis added)

 

“Those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal…” are the last five of the nine states of concentration that Gautama regularly taught. He would generally describe a set of three or four “corporeal” concentrations, and then describe the set of five “incorporeal” concentrations. 

 

“Corporeal” is defined in the Oxford dictionary as “relating to a person's body”, and the four “corporeal” concentrations culminate in a cessation of volition in the activity of the body (particularly a cessation of volition in the activity of inhalation and exhalation).

 

About “those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal…”, Gautama said very little. My understanding is that they have to do with the influence of things that are beyond the range of the senses in experience, and so are said to be “incorporeal”, or not physical. The “peaceful Deliverances” culminate in a cessation of volition in the activity of the mind (particularly in feeling and perceiving).

 

The first “(type of) person” was “freed both ways”, apparently a reference to the cessation of volition in the action of both the body and the mind.

 

The three “cankers” were said to be “sense-pleasures”, “becoming”, and “ignorance” (MN III 121, PTS Vol. III pp 151-2). When the cankers are “destroyed”, the roots of the craving for sense-pleasures, the roots of the craving “to continue, to survive, to be” (Bhikkyu Sujato), and the roots of the craving for what is delusion are destroyed.

 

In the lecture about the “seven (types of) person”, Gautama went on to name five more “(types of) person”, all of whom had “seen by means of wisdom”, yet their cankers were not “utterly destroyed”—consequently, he said, “there is (yet) something to be done through diligence” for them.

 

There are schools of modern Buddhism that regard concentration as an ancillary practice in the attainment of wisdom, as a useful precursor to the attainment of insight. In the sermon above, Gautama acknowledged that there are indeed those who are “freed by means of intuitive wisdom”.  Such “persons” are freed in spite of their not having experienced the “the peaceful Deliverances…”, but so far as I know Gautama did not teach a path to such a freedom.

 

The paths that he did teach, eight-fold for the learner and ten-fold for the adept, both included “right concentration” among the elements.  
 

 

What I'm up to is focusing on the four "corporeal" concentrations, bearing in mind:

 

… a good (person] reflects thus: “Lack of desire even for the attainment of the first meditation has been spoken of by [me]; for whatever (one) imagines it to be, it is otherwise” [Similarly for the second, third, and fourth initial meditative states, and for the attainments of the first four further meditative states]. 

 

(MN III 113 (42-45), © Pali Text Society Vol III p 92-94)

 

As I explain in the piece I'm writing, I do because:

 

Part of the mindfulness that made up Gautama’s way of living was:

Contemplating cessation I shall breathe in. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe out.

 

(SN 54.1; Pali Text Society vol. V p 275-276)

 

 

The contemplation of “cessation” while breathing in and while breathing out is particularly conducive to “the cessation of inhalation and exhalation”, a state in which the activity of the body takes place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness.

I think I can say that most Buddhist teachers have not realized the complete destruction of the cankers. Nevertheless, I believe many of them regularly practice a concentration that includes “the cessation of inhalation and exhalation”, and a mindfulness similar to the mindfulness that Gautama declared was his way of living.

They do so because, as Gautama declared, that way of living:

 

… if cultivated and made much of, is something peaceful and choice, something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living too.

 

(SN 54.9, Pali Text Society SN vol. V p 285; “mindfulness of” substituted for Woodward’s “intent concentration on”, “mindfulness of” as in Horner’s translation of MN 118)

 

 

Maybe better to point at a way of living that doesn't necessarily require the attainment of all of the "incorporeal" Deliverances, and the complete destruction of the cankers.  

I guess some may say that they are freed by "intuitive wisdom", and that Gautama's teachings are really irrelevant, that having seen by means of wisdom through "intuitive wisdom" is where it's at.  Who am I, to disagree!

 

Then again, what of what they really teach has to do with Gautama the Buddha?

 

 

 

Edited October 12 by Mark Foote

[old3bob]

"...Maybe better to point at a way of living that doesn't necessarily require the attainment of all of the "incorporeal" Deliverances, and the complete destruction of the cankers.  

I guess some may say that they are freed by "intuitive wisdom", and that Gautama's teachings are really irrelevant, that having seen by means of wisdom through "intuitive wisdom" is where it's at.  Who am I, to disagree!

 

Then again, what of what they really teach has to do with Gautama the Buddha?  By Mark Foote

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Great points....Btw. the idea about setting down the teachings (or raft) to me when reaching the far shore does not mean destroying the teachings (or raft) as being irrelevant... for who is one to say or do so?   I'd also say (with very limited experience) that some  masters may step beyond of the 'workings of the "wheel of life' (thus a cessation) but if and when they step back in they still need to work with and in that matrix. thus not try to destroy it.  As for those that do not step back in they have completely finished their work never to come back, although leaving pointers (like rafts) behind for others to use.  I take it that Buddhist doctrine speaks directly of the historic Buddha stepping through the 8 liberations and also reaching  "beyond the beyond", so in a sense stepping in and out of the of the eight , but in the end He finished his work and was not to come back...

 

Edited October 13 by old3bob

[doc benway]

On 10/11/2024 at 2:58 PM, Thrice Daily said:

I quite liked it to be honest, you did go off on a bit of a mad one, but we all do that from time to time.

 

On 10/11/2024 at 7:41 PM, stirling said:

 

It might sound mad... but from here it feels about a clear as it gets.

 

Crazy wisdom, gotta love it!

 

[stirling]

On 10/13/2024 at 3:23 AM, old3bob said:

Great points....Btw. the idea about setting down the teachings (or raft) to me when reaching the far shore does not mean destroying the teachings (or raft) as being irrelevant... for who is one to say or do so?

 

The raft metaphor is originally the Buddha's so I would say it is for him to "say or do". He doesn't say to DESTROY teachings. Why would you do that? He says that , once there is realization, you set the teachings DOWN. You no longer cling to them.

 

Anyway, there have been any number of buddhas that have their own teachings that perfectly accord with the buddha's teachings. Read some Padmasambhava, for example... or some Dogen, or Bodhidharma amongst many. They don't sound the same, or even walk under the buddhist banner, but all of the content is there if you read it. 

 

On 10/13/2024 at 3:23 AM, old3bob said:

I'd also say (with very limited experience) that some masters may step beyond of the 'workings of the "wheel of life' (thus a cessation) but if and when they step back in they still need to work with and in that matrix. thus not try to destroy it.

 

Masters don't destroy anything... maybe delusions?  "Masters" operate in the world to liberate other beings. To do that it usually most effective to be where they are. 

 

On 10/13/2024 at 3:23 AM, old3bob said:

As for those that do not step back in they have completely finished their work never to come back, although leaving pointers (like rafts) behind for others to use. I take it that Buddhist doctrine speaks directly of the historic Buddha stepping through the 8 liberations and also reaching  "beyond the beyond", so in a sense stepping in and out of the of the eight , but in the end He finished his work and was not to come back...

 

I think the work never finishes. Buddhas are appearing in the world all the time out of the ashes of sentient beings. The next named incarnation of the Buddha is supposedly Maitreya... should be stopping by some time soon? I wouldn't wait. There are perfectly good buddhas all over the place. Once you know what a buddha sounds like you'll find yourself tripping over them everywhere.

[forestofclarity]

To study the buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of realization remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.

 

Dogen, Genjo Koan, trans Aitken and Tanahashi

[forestofclarity]

"Now you're probably all wondering what this unborn Buddha-mind is like. Well, while you're sitting there facing me and trying to catch what it is I'm saying, if the bark of a dog or the cry of a street vendor should find its way in here from outside the temple walls, though you're listening to me, each of you would hear it, even though you had no intention to do so, thanks to the working of the Buddha-mind, which hears and understands in the Unborn. The Buddha-mind, unborn and illuminating all things with perfect clarity, is like a mirror, standing clear and spotlessly polished. A mirror, as you know, reflects anything that's before it. Whatever's placed in front of it never fails to be reflected, though the mirror has no idea or intention of doing so. And when the object is taken away, the mirror doesn't reflect it any longer, though it makes no decision to cease reflecting. Now, that's just how the unborn Buddha-mind works. You see and hear all things, no matter what they are, although you haven't generated a single thought to see or hear them, because of the vital working of the unborn Buddha-mind each of you received at birth." 

 

Bankei, the Hoshin-Hi Sermons, trans. Waddell

[forestofclarity]

And randomly from the Tripura Rahasa, trans Tigunait:

 

"Just as the reflection is inseparable from the mirror, this entire reflected universe is inseparable from consciousness." 

[Mark Foote]

On 10/16/2024 at 3:10 PM, forestofclarity said:

And randomly from the Tripura Rahasa, trans Tigunait:

 

"Just as the reflection is inseparable from the mirror, this entire reflected universe is inseparable from consciousness." 
 

 

 

Sitting shikantaza is the place itself, and things. …When you sit, the cushion sits with you. If you wear glasses, the glasses sit with you. Clothing sits with you. House sits with you. People who are moving around outside all sit with you. They don’t take the sitting posture!

 

(“Aspects of Sitting Meditation”, “Shikantaza”; Kobun Chino Otogawa;
http://www.jikoji.org/intro-aspects/)

 

"The place itself, and things"--sit the posture, breath the inbreath and the outbreath.  

Shikantaza is an experience of the universe in action, through the place of occurrence of consciousness and things.

 

Edited October 18 by Mark Foote

[forestofclarity]

Then she said, “Dear teacher, I have done nothing at all to prepare for the next life. Now I’m going to do so. Please, out of your great compassion, take care of me and give me meditation instruction.”

 

Milarepa was delighted and replied, “If you practice the Dharma sincerely, in my tradition, you don’t need to change your name. One awakens with a full head of hair. You don’t have to cut your hair or make other changes.”

 

He sang this song with four examples and five points about meditation and mind practice:

 

Ah, Lady Paldarboom
Fortunate and devoted student,

Take the sky as an example,
Practice without any sense of limit or position.

Take the sun and moon as examples,
Practice without any sense of clarity or distortion.

Take this mountain as an example,
Practice without any sense of movement or change.

Take the great ocean as an example,
Practice without any sense of depth or surface.

To bring out mind,
Practice without any doubt or hesitation.

 

Showing her how to sit and direct her mind, he set her to practice. She had good experiences in her meditation and presented this song to clear away doubts and impediments.

 

Ah, Treasured Lord,
Perfect expression of awakened form,

I was happy practicing with the sky,
But a little uneasy about bringing clouds into the practice.
Please give me instruction on practicing with clouds.

I was happy practicing with the sun and moon,
But a little uneasy about bringing stars and planets into the practice.
Please give me instruction on practicing with stars and planets.

I was happy to practice with the mountain,
But a little uneasy about bringing in grass and trees.
Please give me instruction on practicing with grass and trees.

I was happy practicing with the ocean,
But a little uneasy about bringing waves into the practice.
Please give me instruction on practicing with waves.

I was happy to practice with mind,
But a little uneasy about bringing thoughts into the practice.
Please give me instruction on practicing with thoughts.

 

Milarepa thought that her practice was productive and was delighted. In response to her request, he sang this song about removing
impediments and enhancing practice:

 

Ah, Lady Paldarboom,
Listen, fortunate and devoted student,

If you are happy practicing with the sky,
Clouds are the sky’s magical creations.
Be the sky itself.

If you are happy practicing with the sun and moon,
Planets and stars are their magical creations.
Be the sun and moon.

If you are happy practicing with the mountain,
Grass and trees are the mountain’s magical creations.
Be the mountain itself.

If you are happy practicing with the ocean,
Waves are the ocean’s magical creations.
Be the ocean itself.

If you are happy practicing with mind,
Thoughts are the mind’s magical creations.
Be mind itself.

 

When she practiced with these instructions, she came to a clear understanding of the nature of pure being. Later, she went to the dakini realms in her own body, accompanied by the sounds of cymbals.

 

(trans Ken McLeod)

[forestofclarity]

Quote

 

Rest at ease within the uncontrived nature of mind

By looking, nothing is seen;

Seeing nothing is actually to see naked awareness.

That itself is Buddha Kuntu Zangpo.

 

 

--Dudjom Rinpoche, trans. Ron Garry

[old3bob]

 

so a clean computer has all it's ram programing resolved and only follows pure rom code programed by god. 

 

 

[forestofclarity]

Quote

 

In Dzogchen practice, the most important thing is the recognition of inner space, or emptiness. If you can practice this, then whatever phenomena of samsara arise are dissolved into wisdom mind.

 

For this to happen, your recognition of mind nature has to be unwavering. If you can achieve this, then anything that arises in your mindstream—any emotions, thoughts, likes, dislikes, perceptions of good and bad, and so on—is naturally released without effort. 

 

-- Tsoknyi Rinpoche

[Sherman Krebbs]

On 10/11/2024 at 5:06 AM, stirling said:

Right now all phenomena are liberating themselves moment to moment, it is our story about them that is the bondage.

 

Really there is only ONE liberation. 

 

This made my day.  Thanks!

[Mark Foote]

On 10/16/2024 at 3:07 PM, forestofclarity said:

"Now you're probably all wondering what this unborn Buddha-mind is like. Well, while you're sitting there facing me and trying to catch what it is I'm saying, if the bark of a dog or the cry of a street vendor should find its way in here from outside the temple walls, though you're listening to me, each of you would hear it, even though you had no intention to do so, thanks to the working of the Buddha-mind, which hears and understands in the Unborn. The Buddha-mind, unborn and illuminating all things with perfect clarity, is like a mirror, standing clear and spotlessly polished. A mirror, as you know, reflects anything that's before it. Whatever's placed in front of it never fails to be reflected, though the mirror has no idea or intention of doing so. And when the object is taken away, the mirror doesn't reflect it any longer, though it makes no decision to cease reflecting. Now, that's just how the unborn Buddha-mind works. You see and hear all things, no matter what they are, although you haven't generated a single thought to see or hear them, because of the vital working of the unborn Buddha-mind each of you received at birth." 

 

Bankei, the Hoshin-Hi Sermons, trans. Waddell
 

 

 

Not fond of Bankei.  Nevertheless--my explanation of what he's driving at:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

 

When the free location of consciousness is accompanied by an extension of the mind of compassion, there can be a feeling that the necessity of breath is connected to things that lie outside the boundaries of the senses. 

 

 

"You see and hear all things, no matter what they are"--things beyond the range of the senses can sometimes end up manifested in activity:

 

Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent.

 

(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Tanahashi)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 3 by Mark Foote

[forestofclarity]

Quote

No matter what happens in space, space can never be harmed or destroyed. Likewise, no matter what arises in the mind, no matter how violent or deluded it is, the nature of mind has always and will always be pure.

 

~ Chamtrul Rinpoche

[old3bob]

56 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

~ Chamtrul Rinpoche

 

that would have to be put into context...being that mind per se ranges anywhere from A-Z.  (as depicted in the Wheel of Life in Tibetan Buddhism, whereas un-compounded pure Spirit points to that which can not be corrupted)

[forestofclarity]

22 hours ago, old3bob said:

that would have to be put into context...being that mind per se ranges anywhere from A-Z.  (as depicted in the Wheel of Life in Tibetan Buddhism, whereas un-compounded pure Spirit points to that which can not be corrupted)

 

In this case the reference is to the mind's essential nature (sems nyid) as opposed to the mind (sems) or its various expressions. 

[Sherman Krebbs]

On 11/1/2024 at 5:27 PM, forestofclarity said:

For this to happen, your recognition of mind nature has to be unwavering. If you can achieve this, then anything that arises in your mindstream—any emotions, thoughts, likes, dislikes, perceptions of good and bad, and so on—is naturally released without effort. 

 

I find I am able to do this until I'm not. Its like you recognize something, then once you think you've achieved it, you forget it, and the boulder rolls back down the hill.  Daily mediation seems to be a key (for me at least), though once the boulder starts rolling its hard to stop.   

 

Also, I find working on computers puts a huge strain on this recognition, as it inherently requires your attachment to the abstract elements of the mindstream that you are trying to release.  

[forestofclarity]

47 minutes ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

I find I am able to do this until I'm not.

 

Exactly so! As Tulku Urgyen says, "short times, many times." It is the practice until it unfolds at its own rate. 

 

Meditation is Tibetan is gom, often translated as "to become familiar with." I like this emphasis it isn't really effortful. Once you become familiar with some one, we can recognize them instantly, even if they are dressed differently, with a different haircut, or even in disguise. Same here, IME. 

[forestofclarity]

As a follow on: 

 

Quote

When we hear ‘Don’t be distracted’, we may think that we have to do something in order to be undistracted. People usually think that trying to remain undistracted is some kind of deliberate act. This would in fact be so if the aim was to maintain a par­ticular state of concentration for a long time. Deliberate action would be necessary in that case. But I am not telling you to do that. The moment of natural empty cognisance doesn’t last very long by itself, but that’s perfectly okay. You don’t have to try to prolong that moment; rather, repeat it many times. ‘Short moments, many times’—this is the training in uncontrived natu­ralness. Uncontrived naturalness means you don’t have to do any­thing during that state. It’s like ringing a bell. Once you ring the bell there is a continuity of sound; you don’t have to do anything in order for the sound to continue. Simply allow that continuity to endure by itself until at some point the sound fades away.

 

--- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

 

In this case the reference is to the mind's essential nature (sems nyid) as opposed to the mind (sems) or its various expressions. 

 

That's per a Buddhist definition, right?  

[forestofclarity]

5 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

That's per a Buddhist definition, right?  

 

Yes. It is a Buddhist definition related to a Buddhist quote. Feel free to share quotes from other traditions as well! 

[old3bob]

12 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

Yes. It is a Buddhist definition related to a Buddhist quote. Feel free to share quotes from other traditions as well! 

 

mind, including pure mind (which is great) is still a thing and is not "beyond the beyond" per borrowing a Buddhist quote.