Seeing, Recognising & Maintaining One's Enlightening Potential II: Open Tradition Edition

[Sherman Krebbs]

54 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

Meditation is Tibetan is gom, often translated as "to become familiar with." I like this emphasis it isn't really effortful. Once you become familiar with some one, we can recognize them instantly, even if they are dressed differently, with a different haircut, or even in disguise. Same here, IME. 

 

Thanks!  Emotion seems to be hardest to "recognize" and release in this context.  Sometimes am not sure how to regard emotion within the pheonmenonal realm, or really what emotion is. Happiness, sadness, anger, fear, anxiety, anger.  Suppose there are all just the same thing. or maybe there is just pain and no pain.   Something sterling said the other day really stuck with me though, that its the story we make of these things not the things themselves, as they are self liberating. 

[forestofclarity]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

mind, including pure mind (which is great) is still a thing and is not "beyond the beyond" per borrowing a Buddhist quote.

 

Not at all, but feel free to form whatever ideas if that helps you on your own path. 

[old3bob]

 

oh, what happened to the funny guy?

[Thrice Daily]

This is a nice song that is very meditative and is sang three times at each daily session in the Mahayana Kadampa centres … it’s always stayed with me and it’s lovely in the precise way they sing it there. It’s very memorable and meditative in the spirit of a sympathetic joy…. 
 

Here are the words;

 

Tsongkhapa

Crown ornament of thе scholars of the Land of the Snows

You are Buddha Shakyamuni and Vajradhara

The source of all attainments

Avalokiteshvara

The treasury of unobservable compassion

Manjushri

The supreme stainless wisdom

And Vajrapani

The destroyer of the hosts of maras

 

O Venerable Guru-Buddha

Synthesis of all Three Jewels

With my body, speech and mind

Respectfully I make requests

Please grant your blessings

To ripen and liberate myself and others

And bestow the common and supreme attainments…

[forestofclarity]

Quote

Compared to begging one hundred times, save me, protect me! It is much more effective to say once, "Devour me!"

 

--- Machig Labdron

[forestofclarity]

Let's mix it up. I was surprised to come across this. Maybe not fully on point, but sympathetically so: 

 

Quote

 

Kia cannot be experienced directly because it is the basis of consciousness (or experience), and it has no fixed qualities which the mind can latch on to. Kia is the consciousness, it is the elusive “I” which confers self-awareness but does not seem to consist of anything itself. Kia can sometimes be felt as ecstacy or inspiration, but it is deeply buried in the dualistic mind. It is mostly trapped in the aimless wanderings of thought and in identification with experience and in that cluster of opinions about ourselves called ego. Magic is concerned with giving the Kia more freedom and flexibility and with providing means by which it can manifest its occult power. Kia is capable of occult power because it is a fragment of the great life force of the universe.

 

--- Peter Carroll, Liber Null

[Thrice Daily]

3 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

Let's mix it up. I was surprised to come across this. Maybe not fully on point, but sympathetically so: 

 

--- Peter Carroll, Liber Null

well ahead of his time wasn't he.

[stirling]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

Let's mix it up. I was surprised to come across this. Maybe not fully on point, but sympathetically so: 

 

--- Peter Carroll, Liber Null

 

I read that a few months ago. Some of it is, while more complicated, quite similar to the Buddhist models. I think of his description of Kia as (an inexpensive car... kidding!) a nice metaphor to explain how our intention can manifest in the world when we are more and more "empty" of "self". My experience is that this is certainly the case.

[forestofclarity]

17 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

well ahead of his time wasn't he.

 

Or behind, by several millenia, depending on how one looks. 

 

16 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I read that a few months ago. Some of it is, while more complicated, quite similar to the Buddhist models. I think of his description of Kia as (an inexpensive car... kidding!) a nice metaphor to explain how our intention can manifest in the world when we are more and more "empty" of "self". My experience is that this is certainly the case.

 

I could never get straight chaos magic to work. One could say that the model wasn't conducive to convincing my deeper layers of mind. 

[Mark Foote]

On 11/11/2024 at 12:43 PM, forestofclarity said:

Let's mix it up. I was surprised to come across this. Maybe not fully on point, but sympathetically so: 

  Quote

Kia cannot be experienced directly because it is the basis of consciousness (or experience), and it has no fixed qualities which the mind can latch on to. Kia is the consciousness, it is the elusive “I” which confers self-awareness but does not seem to consist of anything itself. Kia can sometimes be felt as ecstacy or inspiration, but it is deeply buried in the dualistic mind. It is mostly trapped in the aimless wanderings of thought and in identification with experience and in that cluster of opinions about ourselves called ego. Magic is concerned with giving the Kia more freedom and flexibility and with providing means by which it can manifest its occult power. Kia is capable of occult power because it is a fragment of the great life force of the universe.

--- Peter Carroll, Liber Null
 

 

 

A post on my own website, Take the Backward Step:

 

 

Nisargadatta said:

 

You are not your body, but you are the consciousness in the body, because of which you have the awareness of “I am”. It is without words, just pure beingness. Meditation means you have to hold consciousness by itself. The consciousness should give attention to itself.

 

(Gaitonde, Mohan [2017]. Self – Love: The Original Dream [Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj’s Direct Pointers to Reality]. Mumbai: Zen Publications)

 

 

“The consciousness should give attention to itself”—in thirteenth-century Japan, Eihei Dogen wrote:

 

Therefore, …take the backward step of turning the light and shining it back.

 

(“Fukan zazengi” Tenpuku version; tr. Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, p 176)

 

 

That’s a poetic way to say “the consciousness should give attention to itself”.

 

... In his “Genjo Koan”, Dogen wrote:

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

 

(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Robert Aitken and Kazuaki Tanahashi)

 

 

Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself”, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness.  A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”.  Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body.

 

Dogen continued:

 

When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…

 

(ibid)

 

 

“When you find your way at this moment”, activity takes place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. A relationship between the freedom of consciousness and the automatic activity of the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, practice occurs. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested as the activity of the body.

 

You could say that's all about "giving the Kia more freedom and flexibility".

 

Regarding "it is a fragment of the great life force of the universe":

 

There’s a third line about actualization in “Genjo Koan”:

 

Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent.

 

(ibid)

 

 

... Dogen didn’t offer an explanation of his third line, but he did provide a case study from the literature of Zen:

 

Mayu, Zen Master Baoche, was fanning himself. A monk approached and said, “Master, the nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. Why then do you fan yourself?”

 

“Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent,” Mayu replied, “you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere.”

 

“What is the meaning of its reaching everywhere?” asked the monk again. Mayu just kept fanning himself…

 

(ibid)

 

 

The wind that reaches everywhere was actualized immediately in Mayu’s fanning.

 

(The Inconceivable Nature of the Wind)

 

 

[forestofclarity]

The true “I” — the consciousness that looks out at the world through you, as through a window — has many names: in Christianity it is the Son, the Logos, the kingdom of heaven; Jung called it the Self; the Dzogchen teachings speak of rigpa; other Buddhists sometimes call it “mind”; for the Hindus it is Atman. This Self — which is emphatically not the lower self or the ego — is at the core of your being. You can never see it, because it is that which sees. Saint Francis of Assisi alluded to this when he said, “What you are looking for is what is looking.” And Christ in the Gospel of Thomas says, “You can never take hold of it, but you can never lose it.”

 

Paradoxically, this “I,” this most intimate and private part of ourselves, is held in common by all; it is the same in everyone. A Course in Miracles says, “God has only one Son,” and we collectively are the Son. Language itself begins to bend and break under this realization. How does our tidy system of grammar do justice to the fact that what is most deeply, intimately “me” is precisely what I most share with everyone else?

 

The Buddhists say it is just as accurate to speak of “no self” as of the Self. Buddhism also doesn’t subscribe to the notion of a theistic God. Esoteric Christianity would agree that God is not a person in the way you and I are persons. God is Absolute, beyond personhood or nonpersonhood. And yet, Christianity teaches, God is capable of relating to us as persons. That is part of the infinite mercy of the divine.

 

--- Richard Smoley

[old3bob]

43 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

The true “I” — the consciousness that looks out at the world through you, as through a window — has many names: in Christianity it is the Son, the Logos, the kingdom of heaven; Jung called it the Self; the Dzogchen teachings speak of rigpa; other Buddhists sometimes call it “mind”; for the Hindus it is Atman. This Self — which is emphatically not the lower self or the ego — is at the core of your being. You can never see it, because it is that which sees. Saint Francis of Assisi alluded to this when he said, “What you are looking for is what is looking.” And Christ in the Gospel of Thomas says, “You can never take hold of it, but you can never lose it.”

 

Paradoxically, this “I,” this most intimate and private part of ourselves, is held in common by all; it is the same in everyone. A Course in Miracles says, “God has only one Son,” and we collectively are the Son. Language itself begins to bend and break under this realization. How does our tidy system of grammar do justice to the fact that what is most deeply, intimately “me” is precisely what I most share with everyone else?

 

The Buddhists say it is just as accurate to speak of “no self” as of the Self. Buddhism also doesn’t subscribe to the notion of a theistic God. Esoteric Christianity would agree that God is not a person in the way you and I are persons. God is Absolute, beyond personhood or nonpersonhood. And yet, Christianity teaches, God is capable of relating to us as persons. That is part of the infinite mercy of the divine.

 

--- Richard Smoley

 

Not bad, but...

soul as "I" is still unique and of consciousness,  while Brahman is not a particular and unique soul but the soul of all souls...

Smoley is apparently getting some things crossed over, for instance the major aspects like the absoulute non-manifest and manifest which are connected thus not one separate from the apparent other.

[Thrice Daily]

2 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

Saint Francis of Assisi alluded to this when he said, “What you are looking for is what is looking.”

Did you ever watch the movie biopic where the St is played by Mickey Rourke. Great film that was for Hollywood rendition. 

[stirling]

On 11/12/2024 at 6:48 AM, forestofclarity said:

Or behind, by several millenia, depending on how one looks. 

 

 

I could never get straight chaos magic to work. One could say that the model wasn't conducive to convincing my deeper layers of mind. 

 

I had quick, and immense success with summoning my Holy Guardian Angel, believe it or not. Part of it is that my existing visionary experience events are already photorealistic and 3 dimensional, so summoning this particular "being" seemed completely possible. As you say, how possible it seems (and how able you are to adopt or have absolutely NO belief system) DOES seem to make a big impact. Haven't really tried anything else honestly... most of the rest (manipulating for money/love/etc.) isn't of interest to me. 

[stirling]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

Not bad, but...

soul as "I" is still unique and of consciousness,  while Brahman is not a particular and unique soul but the soul of all souls...

Smoley is apparently getting some things crossed over, for instance the major aspects like the absoulute non-manifest and manifest which are connected thus not one separate from the apparent other.

 

Seems like he has it to me:

 

Quote

The Self which is free from sin, free from old age, from death and from grief, from hunger and thirst, which desires nothing but what it ought to desire, and imagines nothing but what it ought to imagine, that it is which we must search out, that it is which we must try to understand. He who has searched out that Self and understands it, obtains all worlds and all desires.

- Khândogya-Upanishad 8.7.1

 

Why does that sound familiar... oh yes:

 

Quote

There is neither ignorance nor extinction of ignorance... neither old age and death, nor extinction of old age and death; no suffering, no cause, no cessation, no path; no knowledge and no attainment. - Buddha, Heart Sutra

 

Or:
 

Quote

 

All this is Brahman. Let a man meditate on that (visible world) as beginning, ending, and breathing in it (the Brahman)...
...He is my self within the heart, smaller than a corn of rice, smaller than a corn of barley, smaller than a mustard seed, smaller than a canary seed or the kernel of a canary seed. He is also myself within the heart, greater than the earth, greater than the sky, greater than heaven, greater than all these worlds.

- Khândogya-Upanishad 3.14 1, 3

 

 

"self" is just a little bit of Self, but they aren't separate... that is an illusion. 

 

Quote

"The entire universe is truly the Self. There exists nothing at all other than the Self. The enlightened person sees everything in the world as his own Self, just as one views earthenware jars and pots as nothing but clay". - Shankara

 

It's ALL Self, Bob, including every little bit of it that you imagine is separate somehow. Nothing gets a pass.

[forestofclarity]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

Haven't really tried anything else honestly... most of the rest (manipulating for money/love/etc.) isn't of interest to me. 

 

I've sort of changed my mind on the issue. I realized that the most important material thing isn't money, etc. but actually health. And not just for oneself, but as an offering for others. When you hear about some obstacle or issue some one is having, there's something that can be done. Or maybe we just release it out into the world as an offering. 

 

But even money for oneself--- if you use it for dharmic ends--- buying dharmic things made by people who now earn merit, or giving to teachers, or support monastics, or the poor, or supporting dharma activities--- then this is also a good thing. Plus the gains of the people who manufacture the metals, or deliver it, etc, it ripples out. Not to mention the inward ripples or the impact on those around me who may not be spiritual practitioners. 

[silent thunder]

Such a strong point about health... without health, what else among the material can be enjoyed or made use of...  not food, not travel, being sick in grand clothes, being too sick to be with friends and family?  Missing moments with those we love? 

 

Health is paramount in the material.

 

And as far as commodities go, or currencies and value.  The highest value in my experience has settled in awareness.  Attention is the one commodity of life beyond compare.  Attention is the currency of moments... it is the currency of life and living.  What we allow ourselves to attend to in awareness is what we spend our life upon.  Our life is comprised of the moments of attention that make up our life and if i count myself truly wealthy, it is in the grand fortune to have formed and shared myriad loving and cherished moments with inspiring and beautiful people, places, animals, and the rest of the ten thousand!

[stirling]

7 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

I've sort of changed my mind on the issue. I realized that the most important material thing isn't money, etc. but actually health. And not just for oneself, but as an offering for others. When you hear about some obstacle or issue some one is having, there's something that can be done. Or maybe we just release it out into the world as an offering. 

 

But even money for oneself--- if you use it for dharmic ends--- buying dharmic things made by people who now earn merit, or giving to teachers, or support monastics, or the poor, or supporting dharma activities--- then this is also a good thing. Plus the gains of the people who manufacture the metals, or deliver it, etc, it ripples out. Not to mention the inward ripples or the impact on those around me who may not be spiritual practitioners. 

 

Something my own teacher said once, and I hear repeated over and over again is that those on the path who compulsively act for the good of all sentient beings end up being "taken care of", most recently Khandro Kunzang Dechen in a recent podcast I heard. Her version of it has the "dharma protectors" doing it. While I have empowerments, I think it is true for anyone on this path, protectors or not. The work of truly cutting through the delusion of separateness and acting with the intention of kindness, and as little clinging and aversion as one can muster is rewarded with a more loving, beautiful, dream-like reality. 

 

It manifests something like a siddhi - regular little miracles of generosity of (relative) wealth, health, fulfillment of aims related to the spread of wisdom. It's just crazy. If it was really safe I'd go into a list I would but, suffice to say, things are provided and there is great gratitude. 

[Shadow_self]

22 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Something my own teacher said once, and I hear repeated over and over again is that those on the path who compulsively act for the good of all sentient beings end up being "take care of", most recently Khandro Kunzang Dechen in a recent podcast I heard. Her version of it has the "dharma protectors" doing it. While I have empowerments, I think it is true for anyone on this path, protectors or not. The work of truly cutting through the delusion of separateness and acting with the intention of kindness, and as little clinging and aversion as one can muster is rewarded with a more loving, beautiful, dream-like reality. 

 

It manifests something like a siddhi - regular little miracles of generosity of (relative) wealth, health, fulfillment of aims related to the spread of wisdom. It's just crazy. If it was really safe I'd go into a list I would but, suffice to say, things are provided and there is great gratitude. 

 

True Wisdom is also a siddhi of sorts   Thats something thats been proven to be abundantly clear to me  

[Sherman Krebbs]

8 hours ago, stirling said:

I had quick, and immense success with summoning my Holy Guardian Angel, believe it or not. Part of it is that my existing visionary experience events are already photorealistic and 3 dimensional, so summoning this particular "being" seemed completely possible. As you say, how possible it seems (and how able you are to adopt or have absolutely NO belief system) DOES seem to make a big impact. Haven't really tried anything else honestly... most of the rest (manipulating for money/love/etc.) isn't of interest to me. 

 

I read the liber null part, skimming the last sections  Not having any background on the subject, other than my own experiences, I thought it was super interesting.  I have yet to summon anything :  ), but the general concept, that through meditation, one can connect/understand/influence the realm beyond the limits of ones own realm of phenomenon resonated with me.   Keeping with the thread theme, the enlightened potential in this case seemed to be first coming to an understanding of what your will is (be it good or bad), and then allowing that will to manifest in the universe.  Is that correct, or is there more to it?   That to me felt very similar to the principle of authenticity in the context of Bön, although maybe more clearly stated. 

 

Some of the day-to-day advice was good too.  Somewhere it said remove an aspect of your daily routine and do something completely different, which I think is good advice regardless of the context. 

[stirling]

12 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

Keeping with the thread theme, the enlightened potential in this case seemed to be first coming to an understanding of what your will is (be it good or bad), and then allowing that will to manifest in the universe.  Is that correct, or is there more to it?   That to me felt very similar to the principle of authenticity in the context of Bön, although maybe more clearly stated.

 

When we meditate and the mind has moments of stillness what we experience IS enlightened mind, only not seen at its full depth. Where the mind has the spaciousness and lack of conceptual overlay, things are unencumbered by our thinking minds story of reality.

 

"Will" is tricky to discuss, but I'll give you my take: 

 

When the mind is still, the world can be seen to be a play of light and color. For a moment our thoughts about how reality is drop away. We can see that moment to moment reality is bubbling up from "emptiness". A bird flickers by outside. The sun makes it slow progress along the floor. There is a tickle in your leg. There is a sudden wave of bliss. All of these things happen, but the objects - the bird, the sun the leg, the bliss - arise in consciousness and pass from experience without our thinking mind analyzing, or engaging with them. 

 

We can see this in meditation, but fail to recognize that things are actually ALWAYS like this, even when our mind is busy. We also fail to see that one of the things that flickers into existence in the mind then disappears are our thoughts. Sometimes something happens in the world and a thought arises in response. That response is, itself, the product of how our mind is conditioned, but isn't "I". It is just like everything else, it comes, it goes, it doesn't belong to you. "Will" is just this, your response in this moment, colored and conditioned by the circumstances you are experiencing, and not yours. Will is impersonal. This is how things are in my experience. 

 

Another good piece of advice was to learn to temporarily adopt beliefs then drop them. Since beliefs are always fictions, learning to see that they are fluid and ultimately do not represent reality is a useful skill.

[stirling]

17 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

True Wisdom is also a siddhi of sorts   Thats something thats been proven to be abundantly clear to me  

 

Prajna is most important siddhi by far, and the father of all other true siddhis, from my perspective.

[forestofclarity]

Mod Note: Buddhism/Hinduism Discussion Split: 

 

Mode

[Thrice Daily]

On 15/11/2024 at 8:07 PM, stirling said:

 

When we meditate and the mind has moments of stillness what we experience IS enlightened mind, only not seen at its full depth. Where the mind has the spaciousness and lack of conceptual overlay, things are unencumbered by our thinking minds story of reality.

 

"Will" is tricky to discuss, but I'll give you my take: 

 

When the mind is still, the world can be seen to be a play of light and color. For a moment our thoughts about how reality is drop away. We can see that moment to moment reality is bubbling up from "emptiness". A bird flickers by outside. The sun makes it slow progress along the floor. There is a tickle in your leg. There is a sudden wave of bliss. All of these things happen, but the objects - the bird, the sun the leg, the bliss - arise in consciousness and pass from experience without our thinking mind analyzing, or engaging with them. 

 

We can see this in meditation, but fail to recognize that things are actually ALWAYS like this, even when our mind is busy. We also fail to see that one of the things that flickers into existence in the mind then disappears are our thoughts. Sometimes something happens in the world and a thought arises in response. That response is, itself, the product of how our mind is conditioned, but isn't "I". It is just like everything else, it comes, it goes, it doesn't belong to you. "Will" is just this, your response in this moment, colored and conditioned by the circumstances you are experiencing, and not yours. Will is impersonal. This is how things are in my experience. 

 

Another good piece of advice was to learn to temporarily adopt beliefs then drop them. Since beliefs are always fictions, learning to see that they are fluid and ultimately do not represent reality is a useful skill.

IMO , Will is the mental glue that binds us to existence...

 

Recently I've been finding something most enlightening yet assimilating it into a working living practice I'm absolutely a million miles away from. It concerns the TCM ideas/realities of the 24 solar cycles of the year. Comprising distinctive phases for each season. I feel this is something to get to know and have to confess I've not yet tried to work seasonally like this with regards to practices.

 

It has been part of looking back, trying to find the earliest records of qigong practice, then working forward from the earliest and most influential texts/sages. I'm still very early on and parts of the yellow emperor classic are starting to emerge as important. The seasonal are now becoming a focus point. Organizing qigong and exercise practices can start to look like a very different process when revisited through the lens of the 24 solar phases... Wish me luck, its going to be a long winter  

[stirling]

20 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

IMO , Will is the mental glue that binds us to existence...

 

Recently I've been finding something most enlightening yet assimilating it into a working living practice I'm absolutely a million miles away from. It concerns the TCM ideas/realities of the 24 solar cycles of the year. Comprising distinctive phases for each season. I feel this is something to get to know and have to confess I've not yet tried to work seasonally like this with regards to practices.

 

It has been part of looking back, trying to find the earliest records of qigong practice, then working forward from the earliest and most influential texts/sages. I'm still very early on and parts of the yellow emperor classic are starting to emerge as important. The seasonal are now becoming a focus point. Organizing qigong and exercise practices can start to look like a very different process when revisited through the lens of the 24 solar phases... Wish me luck, its going to be a long winter  

 

Sounds interesting... maybe laborious? I can't honestly image what that might look like in practical terms, but then the practices I engage in the most these days would be viewed by most to be (seemingly) startlingly simple. 

 

From my perspective being completely at home in this moment is key, so using a practice to ground yourself in the cycles of the world might be quite efficacious.