Why bother with morality and ethics?

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Before someone strawmans me, I do live in accordence to some societal as well as personal values, which might be called living morally. However, there is nothing objective about these: you cant derive an ought from an is. So why moralize? Is morality a tool used for control?

[old3bob]

 

"do unto others as you would have them do unto you", is straight forward and is related to karma, so what kind of karma would we want to come back on us!

[Lukks]

13 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 karma

 

this

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

28 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

"do unto others as you would have them do unto you", is straight forward and is related to karma, so what kind of karma would we want to come back on us!

Sure, I am not talking about running around killing everyone and everything. I do not think that would happen even If we admitted good and evil is entirely a construct. I just have a problem with moralizing, and wonder if it is a tool of control. A way to pressure others to behave the way youd like them to behave and is good for you, but maybe not themself.

[stirling]

In Buddhism, the precepts would be the primary morality teaching. Their point is to help the student avoid creating more unnecessary karma for themselves. 

 

If your intention is to relieve suffering, or become enlightened, dramatically reducing or stopping the creation of karma is a foregone conclusion. If that isn't of any concern to you, ask yourself why you still feel guilty about the choices you make and and actions you take. 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Sure, I am not talking about running around killing everyone and everything. I do not think that would happen even If we admitted good and evil is entirely a construct. I just have a problem with moralizing, and wonder if it is a tool of control. A way to pressure others to behave the way youd like them to behave and is good for you, but maybe not themself.

 

Thats what 'treat others as yourself is about ' - I consider it fraught with negative possibilities :

 

lets say I am a born again Christian ... what is the most important thing to me now ?  Going to heaven !  Its great news, I have been saved !  I am glad I am not like I was before .... non- born again ... because I was not going to get eternal life .

 

Now if i treat you how I would like to be treated I will try to convert you to save you ... at any cost  ( we are talking about your future spiritual eternal existence here ! )    Mate , I would get you in a headlock and FORCE you underwater !  Unfortunately I might even have to torture or kill you to GET YOU to confess your bad past .... but its for your own good !

 

How about instead , I treat you how YOU want to be treated ? 

 

Morals and ethics are dependent on where and when we live ... they are part of our social contacts and vary from place to place ... so aside from that and ultimately ; 

 

 "ESSENTIALS OF METHOD

I. Theology is immaterial; for both Buddha and St. Ignatius were Christs.

II. Morality is immaterial; for both Socrates and Mohammed were Christs.

III. Super-consciousness is a natural phenomenon; its conditions are therefore to be sought rather in the acts than the words of those who attain it.

The essential acts are retirement and concentration — as taught by Yoga and Ceremonial Magic. "

 

https://hermetic.com/crowley/equinox/i/ii/eqi02016#google_vignette

[idquest]

8 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Before someone strawmans me, I do live in accordence to some societal as well as personal values, which might be called living morally. However, there is nothing objective about these: you cant derive an ought from an is. So why moralize? Is morality a tool used for control?

 

We need ethics to get our spirit stronger. Some people can make their spirit stronger without being moral and ethical, but vast majority cannot. The catch is that this understanding comes later in life, when one starts developing some degree of wisdom. When this happens, it is often difficult to rectify earlier mistakes. So it is better to trust that being ethical is good, because it could be too late later on. 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

15 hours ago, Nungali said:

 "ESSENTIALS OF METHOD

I. Theology is immaterial; for both Buddha and St. Ignatius were Christs.

II. Morality is immaterial; for both Socrates and Mohammed were Christs.

III. Super-consciousness is a natural phenomenon; its conditions are therefore to be sought rather in the acts than the words of those who attain it.

The essential acts are retirement and concentration — as taught by Yoga and Ceremonial Magic. "

That paragraph has baffled me for a while. Finally it clicked.

[Thrice Daily]

19 hours ago, stirling said:

In Buddhism, the precepts would be the primary morality teaching. Their point is to help the student avoid creating more unnecessary karma for themselves. 

 

Totally agree, and depending on the precept being broken, it may determine the extent of the downfall.

 

I remember reading ‘don’t sell intoxicants’ as being one recommendation in Tibetan Buddhism.
 

So I won’t provide drugs or alcohol to others. This seems sensible.
 

And In doing to others as you want done. Trying to avoid gossip and backbiting is best and arguing face to face too…

 

it can help correct so many problems that we are conditioned with, having a better conduct.
 

So if Morality covers, good manners, being calm and kind and not leading others into chaotic circumstances that may badly hurt them, or others. 
 

Yeah I think morality is important. Also if you got kids and you don’t want the spitting, swearing and smoking at ten it’s probably best to be more of a square.

 

like attracts like

 

birds of a feather flock together 

 

and…

 

monkey see monkey do

Edited October 11 by Thrice Daily

[Thrice Daily]

 

[Master Logray]

22 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Before someone strawmans me, I do live in accordence to some societal as well as personal values, which might be called living morally. However, there is nothing objective about these: you cant derive an ought from an is. So why moralize? Is morality a tool used for control?

 

From a cultivator's perspective, sticking to morality is essential.  Because when a cultivator is doing some deep stuff which is comparable to defusing a bomb,  you don't want to be disturbed by whatever thinking or guilt or greed or lust that may crop up.

[Thrice Daily]

2 hours ago, Master Logray said:

comparable to defusing a bomb,

Oh I love that …

[Ajay0]

On 10/10/2024 at 11:21 PM, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

Before someone strawmans me, I do live in accordence to some societal as well as personal values, which might be called living morally. However, there is nothing objective about these: you cant derive an ought from an is. So why moralize? Is morality a tool used for control?

 

As per eastern philosophy, the nature of the mind is to tend to vice and negativity. We would rather be lazy and enjoying pleasures unrestrainedly for the sensual stimulation, go by our likes and dislikes indiscriminately,  rather than engaging in virtuous conduct and duty. So it takes effort and austerity to make the mind incline to virtue and positivity instead.

 

Vices results in temporary pleasure followed by unhappiness and misery. Virtue on the other hand results in temporary pain followed by joy and peace. This joy and peace actually stems from the Self or Buddha nature within ourselves.

 An ethical life as in right speech and effort has been emphasized in Buddhism for attaining enlightenment.

 

Buddhist and Hindu saints and sages, had stated that ethical discipline is a necessary pre-requisite for philosophical enquiry, self-control and Self-realisation. Ethical discipline leads to restraint of the lower self leading to mental equanimity and calmness. Mental equanimity is a necessary element in meditation and Self-knowledge.

 

Hence lack of ethical discipline would lead to lack of meditation, mental training and concentration, mental equanimity and consequent lack of wisdom. 

 

Virtuous conduct has also been considered to be synonymous with meditation.

Rajini Menon is a modern enlightened sage who attained enlightenment by adhering to virtuous conduct and following her conscience. I have created a thread on her in this regard...

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/52451-female-enlightened-master-rajini-menon-on-attaining-enlightenment-by-virtuous-conduct/

Edited October 28 by Ajay0

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

On 28.10.2024 at 6:43 AM, Ajay0 said:

Virtuous conduct has also been considered to be synonymous with meditation.

This I like.

 

As for a doctrine being «necesarry» for developing virtue (reffering to your first 4-6 paragraphs), I think I have heard similar refferences in other religions. That is: for the masses practise and «dogma» is neccesary, but when/if you come to realize the more esoteric teachings, they are no longer of use? Sort of being a gateway, in a way?

[Ascetic]

These are the same people that criminalize their own ego’s, those that have some belief in equality.

 

Equality is the dread and straw sickle which sucks blood from every organism. Though appearing good on surface, these dead animals only contribute towards misery and the coalition of the self, a parasitic ideology that is responsible for every cancer.

 

Ultimately the best morality is comfort, any exhaustion is just a need for resources. I hate people who contribute themselves towards kindness, they look like pigs in the psychic sea who revel in the scent of suffering.
 

If anyone would know how terrifying a need for resources is, then I find someone who I can at least respect a little. The cause or need for morality is purely evil, like adding barbs to an already sharpened scimitar.

[Thrice Daily]

47 minutes ago, Ascetic said:

I hate people who contribute themselves towards kindness, they look like pigs in the psychic sea who revel in the scent of suffering.
 

Please elaborate?

[Ascetic]

Might just be me, but it’s something I struggle with a lot. It’s like I can’t open a spiritual connection because it feels like multiple people or arms are reaching towards the same point.

The design of love and mass kindness (for all beings) is a huge blockage for me. I’m unsure if my psychic sense is accurate but everytime I try I feel like there are too many spiritual entities or sources of bliss.

 

its like not having space to develop and ability to only be dominated by others as the situation becomes more extreme.
 

The feeling of being touched physically/emotionally by people who believe in love and light is irritating. The psychic sea to me is like the sensation of there only being a single particle that everyone touches. Which explains why it’s hard for me to actually spark outwards.

 

Just massive bliss states that have to do with sharing experience. Whether it’s true or not, I don’t know. But it has led me to believe that kindness or love without direction are more evil than good. 
 

I don’t think morality or civility are things that are part of human nature. But a lot of places I go and experience, people are obsessed with rules even though it’s a very anti psychic feeling they emit.

 

It’s difficult to explain how these kind of people are psychically corrupt. It’s just odd because it’s not normal behavior, it’s like most of the human species has degenerated into some weird attachment towards kindness for all, even though these are deeply personal feelings for me.

 

Don’t get me wrong, monks and priests are kind, but it’s irritating to have someone who speaks before you.

[Thrice Daily]

Wow, that’s a deep and personal response. I wasn’t expecting that. I enjoyed reading it a lot.

 

I’ve had similar experiences you know… one component of mine was different though, but when I fixed it I fixed all the other stuff too (over time) 

 

The difference for me is if I seem someone suffering, like a kid being bullied my their parents in the bus or something, I would reach out of my own energy to help the kid, I would feel so much for the kid that I’d go home and just collapse with exhaustion . I’d done it all my life and had no tools or insights to control or stop doing it.

 

For me all the tools and understandings where in my Reiki training. I learned self protection methods and deep grounding methods. When I’d qualified I read into many of the earliest students methods, they were wide and varied but operated from same principles.

 

the strategies were many and within that discipline I was able to learn to stay in my own power , truly, for the first time in life. People bash Reiki which is a shame I think. The techniques I found to be very useful and quite universal common sense in application too… 

 

I hope you crack the nut too, maybe look into Reiki or find something else that can give you similar skill, especially while dealing with your psychic situation. I know it can get tough, but it can get better with the right training for you… 

 

Whatever you do, it’s safe for me to say,,, grounding practices are key… 

 

Good luck and I’m happy to chat with you more in this thread or any other  

[Ascetic]

Reading responses like this really reconnect with me on kindness.

 

When I started, my first psychic event was the feeling of being watched while asleep. Then I woke up to whatever psychic figure being easily able to hold my own Ego in their palm without any of my consent. That’s the psychic sea I got used to, one that uses malice to divide and with every psychic trying to prove there is no one else in the sea. 
 

it’s really pretty at some point, people like to bring up how few human experts there are; but they certainly are there even if some are the corpses that are still moving after death.

 

Reiki is pretty, as well as other healing. It’s an obscene skill to be able to do so. Maybe there’s a lot I need to heal from,  I think in some sense is my main struggle where I am trying to change my species. Human and Elven morals aren’t exactly the same. The benefit of switching to an Elven ideal is that one is a child/a lot younger.

 

There tends to be that huge disadvantage humans have when they start cultivating early or in their childhood. Switching to an elven identity did the same for me. I’m still only 24 but having another decade to cultivate in childhood feels nice (from elven stuff). Also obviously, human observation/spaces where humanity is present seems kind of dated and unable to accept a racial change.

 

In all truth my only collision with moralist or the good, is that I do a lot of weird things. I remember one divinity who tried to heal me and I snapped back because I was trying to keep a disease alive.

 

I think overall your points have convinced to be more open minded and less feral. Maybe it’s just a misunderstanding that I’ve followed for too long. 

 

But it may be that because my following of quite some evil techniques I am facing my reckoning from the good hearted.

 

one passage I like a lot:

” Look, this is very simple. We are inspired by the Holy Writ. We alone can read and interpret it. Therefore: Leave the thinking to us. You do what we say is right. If you do, there will be heavenly reward down the line. If you do not, the Divine One, in the form of me and my helpers here, will smite you. And it will not be pleasant.”

Edited October 30 by Ascetic

[Thrice Daily]

Ahh, you are 24. It sounds like you have already come a long long way. 
 

An old man may be lucky to have some of this insight into wisdom. 
 

You are still young and may have much protecting you that you’re unaware of. If you have gotten out of harms way.

 

I can highly recommend the middle way. You may not feel ready for it yet and may still be drawn to excesses, but it sounds like you have already had quite a ride with all of that.

 

I began to make my peach with excesses at this splendid old building in York England called Madhayamaka (it means middle way) and is a Tibetan Buddhist centre, here I was able to work a little, in exchange for accommodation and food.

 

I also got to listen to monks, and speak a little with them too. It was very useful. I I wish I’d taken the advice to go spend time with monks when I first got given that advice, at age 18, and it was my mother who told me I should. I ignored it… 

 

When I was 28 I eventually did it, it was time, and a great time too,,, very very grounding…

[Dedicated]

To avoid being morally boring.

[Thrice Daily]

Emotional intelligence lends a hand to actual perceived iq and cognitive abilities as well I think

[Ajay0]

On 10/30/2024 at 11:27 PM, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

This I like.

 

As for a doctrine being «necesarry» for developing virtue (reffering to your first 4-6 paragraphs), I think I have heard similar refferences in other religions. That is: for the masses practise and «dogma» is neccesary, but when/if you come to realize the more esoteric teachings, they are no longer of use? Sort of being a gateway, in a way?

 

Yes, as Ayya Khema stated, "The more we abandon ill-will and hatred, the easier it will be to  meditate. "

 

Practice of virtuous conduct and morality helps to develop the faculties of the mind such as mental equanimity, critical thinking and a positive frame of mind that makes meditation easier.

 

The nature of vices like hatred, lust, greed is to agitate the mind, making it unfit for meditation.  I have noticed that people with positive behavioral characteristics seems to go deeper and faster in meditation than those who lack the same.

 

[Thrice Daily]

Love - Compassion - Sympathetic Joy - Equanimity 

[Sahaja]

A couple of thoughts

 

1. The majority of people have some basic amount of values and morality inculcated into them by their upbringing and life experiences. From a cultivators standpoint behavior deviating from these internal standards can disturb the  Jing, qi or shen making cultivation more difficult. There also  can be physical and mental health consequences of this disturbance for anyone, cultivator or not. 

 

2.  Calm abiding, sympathetic joy, acceptance, equanimity  etc arise naturally from deep cultivation. These have behavioral consequences in how we conduct ourselves and treat others. In deep cultivation they become the natural response, not contrived/imposed or with a root in attachment to an outcome or a goal or to egoic self interest. 

 

3. While karma may exist, chasing merit or imposing external or even our own internal standards can become an attachment that impedes cultivation energetically or have other unintended consequences. 
 

learning to listen to the guidance and respond without attachment (either to the standards or to egoic self interest) is the work.