Developing Right Student Mindset

[心神 ~]

 

I've read a few discussions on finding a good teacher. I would like to know what one should do to develop personal discipline to become a good student worthy of a good teacher, especially as a student coming from a Western culture.

 

(Apologies if this is not the right section for this question.)

 

[Taoist Texts]

34 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

I would like to know what one should do to develop personal discipline to become a good student worthy of a good teacher

one should learn to think in full sentences. a student of what? a teacher of what? if it really does not matter of what exactly, then  discipline will be   like digging when in a hole.

[心神 ~]

 

Thank you, please forgive my ignorance. Hopefully I learn how to ask the right questions. 

 

I'd like to study traditional Chinese so I can read the classic Taoist texts on Internal Alchemy.

 

When I've learned to read the texts, I'd like to learn to understand them. 

 

If I can learn to understand them, I'd like to apply and practice the teachings.

 

Because I come from a Western culture, I'm unfamiliar with the basic expectations of interactions between student and teacher through Chinese mindset. I would like to know how to show respect to a teacher as a student, so that if I'm blessed enough for the opportunity, I don't ruin it with my cultural ways.

 

Please correct me if I'm still approaching this ineffectively.

 

[Thrice Daily]

Just my opinion. Basics. Right food, good sleep, calm mind. Consistency, your own personal discipline. 
 

Back when I was 27 I was planning to go to Wudang for three years martial arts practice, and learn some not only Kung fu and weapons but also be a herbologist… (I think that’s the right word) 

 

I remember thinking I would be quite a good student because I already had some martial practice, footwork etc so I could follow instructions, you know it wasn’t entirely new for the nervous system … 

 

I also had some practice with meditation so my mind had already become a little calmer and I had passed through some storms so I would not have to go through all that in my training , that was already experienced so easier to let go.

 

I’d also had some study with I-Ching and so was familiar with Confucius thought and later King Wen commentary so I’d spent time pondering the language for quite a while. 
 

As well TCM five element theory, I’d spent quite a while picking elements of this apart and putting it back together in various ways so again it’s not all new… 

 

It would have helped me I think work through the syllabus better when I was there, but alas I did not get to train in Wudang. 
 

One of my biggest regrets. I had £10,000 ready to go train for the three years. I booked on the course to literally fly over and start around Christmas time, then I found out a couple of months earlier that the money was not going to be available as it was promised…

 

I should have trusted destiny and just flew there to see what would have happened I could have just turned up and begged everywhere and anywhere for a job doing anything, sweeping up washing pots anything as close to the schools as possible.

 

if I could go back I would do this, present myself as a student rain or shine. And throw myself as the discipline 100%

 

if you have a deep reverence and a respect for what you plan to do you will no doubt be learning lots about it… or Chinese history, early writing, anything I guess…

 

What attracts you to these subjects???

 

I would suggest that should you meet a teacher, I would let them lead and drop expectations, me personally I wouldn’t even be reading on my own unless it was encouraged (after meeting teacher) I’d just follow the teacher. But that’s just me, when I was younger. Better respect and trust. 
 

Really though if you got no kids or responsibility consider community to full time study and living in where you learn with other so you can practice continuously like a monk. Again just my personal opinion but I think this is the most potent and quickest way to train and learn, develop the most.

 

Again just my opinions. Good Luck 🤞 
 

 

Edited October 11 by Thrice Daily

[心神 ~]

 

Thank you so much for offering your perspective, @Thrice Daily.

 

It sounds like you're saying that basic knowledge of the five arts and meditation practice gave you a foundation from which you could have learned more effectively, had the opportunity come to fruition. Did I understand it right?

 

It's a shame that you didn't get to go to Wudang. I would love to know how you continued in your studies and spiritual pursuits after the trip fell through. Did you eventually find a teacher?

 

I'm familiar with a few TCM basics, like living in accordance with the hours of the day and with the seasons. But I know I can be better about my daily habits, so I'll make an effort to improve this.

 

What attracts me to Internal Alchemy? 

 

Among various other hardships, my parents died when I was a child, and my partner died when I was in my early 20s. I've been through a lesser hell and have no desire to return. I don't want to lose the crumbs of knowledge and experience I've gained in this lifetime. I don't want to come back to a life that repeats the same lessons and suffering. I don't want to come back to a life that is "better" and forget why this pursuit is so essential. I understand that my current karmic conditions may not allow me to find what I'm seeking, but I have to try.

 

It's not all out of desperation and avoidance of suffering. I deeply enjoy learning about Chinese culture and history, painting, philosophy, music, medicine, physiognomy, divination, etc. But if it all goes away in the end, then it was merely a way to pass the time.

 

Maybe naive and simplistic, but my learning goals are:

 

To calm the nervous system

To regulate my emotions

To protect and heal myself

To protect and heal my relationships

To understand myself and others

To live a longer, more fulfilling life

To develop discipline and discernment

To learn from and with sages and saints

To understand, or at least perceive, the nature of reality

To inspire others to protect and heal themselves

To release my karmic debt

To escape samsara

To be an eternal light for others

 

 

I don't have children, but I am married now. I'm blessed to have the freedom that I do to pursue my spiritual interests in the face of domestic responsibility, but for now, the monastic / community life is out of reach.

 

 

Thank you again for sharing your opinion with me! I'm very grateful for your time.

 

[liminal_luke]

I don´t know much about Asian cultures so I can´t offer advice about the nuances of Asian student / teacher dynamics.  Still, I don´t see how any teacher could go wrong with a student like you. You´re humble.  You want to learn. You know your purpose. You want to approach the subject with respect.  What more could anyone ask for?

[ChiDragon]

36 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

Maybe naive and simplistic, but my learning goals are:

 

To calm the nervous system

To regulate my emotions

To protect and heal myself

To protect and heal my relationships

To understand myself and others

To live a longer, more fulfilling life

To develop discipline and discernment

To learn from and with sages and saints

To understand, or at least perceive, the nature of reality

To inspire others to protect and heal themselves

To release my karmic debt

To escape samsara

To be an eternal light for others

This is all about the cultivation of Xing(mind). Eventually, you will get there with your mindset!

PS Your nickname says it all.

Edited October 11 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

4 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

I would like to know what one should do to develop personal discipline to become a good student worthy of a good teacher,

Personal discipline is from oneself not from a teacher. You learn good things from a good teacher and avoid the bad. Good teacher is hard to find. However, a good teacher is only you but own yourself!

[心神 ~]

 

That's so kind of you to say, @liminal_luke.

 

I worry about the mud settled at the bottom of the lake. What comes up when the water is disturbed? I want to be clear all the way through, not just on the surface.

 

[心神 ~]

Thank you, @ChiDragon !

 

34 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

This is all about the cultivation of Xing(mind). Eventually, you will get there with your mindset!

 

 

I really hope so. I'm just a bit overwhelmed and trying to determine the next step.

 

[blue eyed snake]

26 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

I worry about the mud settled at the bottom of the lake. What comes up when the water is disturbed? I want to be clear all the way through, not just on the surface.

 

welcome here, we hadn't met yet.

 

reading your posts i think all the hardship you've been through will both have given you wisdom beyond your years and a lot of mud on the bottom. Whatever way you choose, whatever teacher may feel the best for you.

Be careful not to rake up too much at once, these processes take time.

 

when a lot of mud comes up too fast it can be overwhelming, as long as you do not have a structured training program, just sit down and try to still the mind and make long walks preferably somewhere outside in nature.

 

regarding finding a teacher, it'll come when the time is ripe, don't worry.

 

also, you'll find as much different advices as there are bums around here 

 

take care, you're worth it 

 

 

 

 

[心神 ~]

49 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

welcome here, we hadn't met yet.

 

reading your posts i think all the hardship you've been through will both have given you wisdom beyond your years and a lot of mud on the bottom.

 

 

Well met, @blue eyed snake !

 

I think you're very right, and I still have a ways to go. Thank you for the reminder to pace myself.

 

[dwai]

6 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

one should learn to think in full sentences. a student of what? a teacher of what? if it really does not matter of what exactly, then  discipline will be   like digging when in a hole.

Moderator  Comment: What is with this aggressive behavior? If you don’t understand the question, and genuinely want to know, you can articulate your question without the condescension. Let me be very clear with you @Taoist Texts - 

if I see even a hint of condescension/bullying from you again, it will result in a permanent ban. 

 

[Ascetic]

I don't think a Student is meant to take any attitude. The blessing is that the Teacher does what they do so the student can step elsewhere or further. Lifetimes are wasted on the efforts here.

There is some ignorance, and more frightening things than that, but the hope to nurture a seedling that does not drag the same regrets really does go somewhere. Even if it all it is, is just a difference in how one moves a pebble.

I find it harsh to realize, because one is really playing with delicate strings; everything is blamed on the teacher, the student is never at fault.

Edited October 12 by Ascetic

[Thrice Daily]

10 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

I worry about the mud settled at the bottom of the lake. What comes up when the water is disturbed?

Hmm, yeah it happens especially in the start.

 

Going for long walks in nature or even short walks is a great circuit breaker as was said in brilliant earlier reply. And the beauty of something as simple as getting 10,000 steps a day will do heaps for your general well being and thus your practice.

 

Practices generally amplify how you already feel… if mega stressed just go for walk, change your focus change your state…

 

If you are reading books and tempted trying things out for yourself. I would stick with only the very basics and build a daily practice that is very simple and easy to remain consistent with (with the view to very gradually build it out from there)

 

One danger in the beginning can be overlapping practices. If we do too many things, it’s difficult to tell what practice or set or meditation is doing what to the mind body emotions etc. from day to day. And week to week…

 

It can be hard in the start as there may be an amplification of results in the beginning of trying something new and even more if there are overlapping practices that may or may not be compatible.

 

This can add to the confusion. I’ve found some of the best advice on here in Daobums is to get a very good grounding in the basic practices (of system you are using) in beginning it’s perhaps not such a good idea to mix systems . 
 

I’ve found it best when I stick with simple practices from a system and gradually increase the time spent and intensity each week. It’s hard to keep in check but 5% increase each week is sweet.

 

You are creating new level of power in your bodies so you want to become stronger gradually in practice and your ability to maintain it. 
 

it may be good to take a journal and just try your hardest to stick to short sessions in your day (consistency is key for me so it’s every day, with a day of a week for most of the things I now have built into my routine) 

 

One of the things often overlooked when giving advice like this is the importance of absolute basics. Not even formal practices… Consistent sleep, food, rest, time outside in morning sunlight , good air, time in nature. Hopefully some social time too, even a bit.
 

This will provide a good foundation for your practice, mental health is so important when working on yourself and going through the storms that naturally come when the water gets muddy.

 

These basics are best if daily practice can become difficult to maintain. 
 

Hey it is possible to have great practices even being on the road all the time, travelling or being without a ‘fixed abode’ it can be interesting but hard to maintain Consistency. 
[opposites can also be true as Daobums May point out and you may get conflicting advice, consistency and basics though seem to come from the most solid sources, they all seem to say that]
 

Regular money, regular place to stay, nearby nature, friendly community, good atmosphere locally. You’re set. Imho.

 

Would you have opportunity for a simple class close by, like Chinese Martial Arts, Tai Chi? Is there somewhere close by you could get some acupuncture, maybe helpful. It was for me in the early stages. Helped me stay grounded when I had a lot going on. Lots of new energies moving sometimes it’s good to move around a lot. 
 

Unsupervised Seated Meditation, personally I would advise just focus on breath at nostrils. Trying to maintain this focus only in practice I’ve found is the best way to avoid ‘muddying the water’ 

 

focusing on other areas of body where emotions are stored or processes are activated may be unsettling. I personally wouldn’t concentrate on third Eye or lower Dan Tien for time in the beginning. It might put you off and upset consistency. 
 

If I don’t want additional drama in my life I’ll try to stay only with sensation on nostrils in seated meditation… it’s way easier and I’ll still get great benefits. I just stay more grounded.

 

This focus on nostril region will naturally help strengthen your future practice. When walking I find it helpful to focus on one part of the body, say the big toe… it’s a great way to strengthen concentration and is quite grounding and calming too. 
 

Are you working with any pre existing physical injuries? Anything that still bothers you from old accidents etc?

[Thrice Daily]

Or any pre existing medical conditions that may be contra indications to certain practices. 
 

if you would prefer not to discuss specifics on the thread feel free to personal message me.

 

I’m a fully qualified alternative and complimentary therapist but will not try to charge you any money. The offer is there though if you want to get more specific. I could be helpful especially if you are on meds or are prone to chronic pain.  

 

happy to help 👍 

[心神 ~]

 

@Ascetic I'm grateful for your response, but I don't quite understand your meaning.

 

Are you saying that the responsibility to nurture the student-teacher relationship lies with the teacher?

 

[心神 ~]

 

@Thrice Daily

 

Thank you so much. I'm going to take your advice and sit and breathe for 20 minutes this morning. Afterward, I'll send you a message about my health.

 

I also think I'd like to start a PPD, to journal my daily habits. Do I need to be a member longer to do so?

 

[blue eyed snake]

general warning

 

The bums writing on this forum are a varied bunch, ranging from some very wise and thoughtful people to weirdo's. Most bums sit somewhere in the middle of this range.

it's not always easy to discern between the two extremes.

 

As on any digital platform, do not trust any stranger on the internet, no matter how sweet they sound.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

19 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

I've read a few discussions on finding a good teacher. I would like to know what one should do to develop personal discipline to become a good student worthy of a good teacher, especially as a student coming from a Western culture.

 

(Apologies if this is not the right section for this question.)

 

What my qigong teacher always says:

 

“Just do it”

 

It’s as simple as just practicing every day until it becomes a habit and second nature.

 

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

17 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

Thank you, please forgive my ignorance. Hopefully I learn how to ask the right questions. 

 

I'd like to study traditional Chinese so I can read the classic Taoist texts on Internal Alchemy.

 

When I've learned to read the texts, I'd like to learn to understand them. 

 

If I can learn to understand them, I'd like to apply and practice the teachings.

 

Because I come from a Western culture, I'm unfamiliar with the basic expectations of interactions between student and teacher through Chinese mindset. I would like to know how to show respect to a teacher as a student, so that if I'm blessed enough for the opportunity, I don't ruin it with my cultural ways.

 

Please correct me if I'm still approaching this ineffectively.

 

Ok, as an Asian who grew up in Asia, just listen to your teacher and follow exactly what they say. Ask questions to clarify when you aren’t sure how to do something properly but don’t keep asking questions about theory or more advanced stuff. When you are ready, they will let you know. If they haven’t told you, you aren’t ready yet.

 

Don't even bother learning Chinese just to read classic Taoist texts before learning a practice, it won’t mean anything to you as a beginner.  Just find a good teacher and follow what they say.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

3 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

@Thrice Daily

 

Thank you so much. I'm going to take your advice and sit and breathe for 20 minutes this morning. Afterward, I'll send you a message about my health.

 

I also think I'd like to start a PPD, to journal my daily habits. Do I need to be a member longer to do so?

 

Write a request in this thread if you want your own PPD:

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/38370-personal-practice-discussion-thread-request/

 

Edited Saturday at 01:44 PM by -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-

[Ascetic]

5 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

@Ascetic I'm grateful for your response, but I don't quite understand your meaning.

 

Are you saying that the responsibility to nurture the student-teacher relationship lies with the teacher?

 

Yes, everything is the teacher. The teacher is blamed for everything and the student is not.
 

Maybe this makes more sense with an example, when one starts to follow the teacher, the fault lies entirely with a teacher.

 

i once trained with an imaginary Yogi and the  Yogi was still blamed for everything. It’s really refreshing at least when the strictness that is expected in learning isn’t there.

[Neirong]

23 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Don't even bother learning Chinese just to read classic Taoist texts before learning a practice, it won’t mean anything to you as a beginner.  Just find a good teacher and follow what they say.

 

The whole point of finding a teacher/school is to save time. So, you don't need to learn the different language, go through thousands of books, travel all around the world, try out hundreds of practices to see if something works or not. Structured teaching will have a step by step approach with milestones along the way, so you don't get overwhelmed and lost in confusion.
And time is money, so a good teaching will naturally pay for itself.

[silent thunder]

21 minutes ago, Neirong said:

The whole point of finding a teacher/school is to save time

 

21 hours ago, Ascetic said:

Yes, everything is the teacher. The teacher is blamed for everything and the student is not.

 

wow. 

just wow.