Daoism, KunLun, Yoga, Buddhism

[Pietro]

Bruce said something at the last workshop which I thought was going to be VERY interesting for the community here.

 

He was explaining about Dragon and Tiger, how it was a Taoist practice even though it was coming from a Busshist place (Shaolin). Essentially he explained that it is like having a car with a different engine, the car is a ford, but the engine is of a Ferrari. So what brand is the car? ?I would say a Ferrari'. He said.

And then he went on explaining how Shaolin was a sort of crossing point for many people for 1500 years (I hope I remember the dates correctly). And how

 

there were different type of meditation. Meditations that followed deeply different principles.

So take on one side Daoism, and on the other Yoga (the one from India). In Yoga you close some channels, then you open them, and in this way you develop an energy through your channels that is going to open them up. A bit like you would do with a system of dams.

On the other hand in Daoism you tend to make everything very smooth, and go from one side to the other without stopping. So in Pranayama you stop the breathing, while in Daoist meditation you keep it continuous and smooth like the one from a baby.

 

And then he said there are different type of meditations. That follow different principles. And he said that Daoism and Yoga, are two such type. He then added a few other names. I wish I remember them. But I do remember Buddhism, and Kun Lun. Others I do not remember. But I know there is at least one which was said that I never heard before. Which I thought was interesting.

 

So the end point is:

according from this kunlun is a totally different way of doing meditation, it follows different principles, and maybe this is why we are having so much trouble in integrating it.

[Smile]

Pietro... different energy, much better. What have you been doing?

[hagar]

Interesting...

 

Reminds me: My master said something similar on a retreat once. He suggested a master in Beijing that was his friend, and that was a Wudan monk, but now lived in Beijing. He underlined that at a basic level this man's system was not that different from what my master taught, but at an advanced level it was wastly different.

 

h

[Sahaj Nath]

So the end point is:

according from this kunlun is a totally different way of doing meditation, it follows different principles, and maybe this is why we are having so much trouble in integrating it.

 

 

i study kunlun school wild goose qigong, and it is a very different system. there are 72 levels, and so far i'm only privy to the first 12, so i can't really comment on the highest level stuff. but from the beginning you're taught to lose yourself in the beauty of the form, playfully. the microcosmic orbit is stimulated naturally through movement rather than being directed. no intention, no direction, just play the form and allow what naturally occurs to occur.

 

it's the first system i've ever come across that has that particular approach. you stretch the body and you play the form, but you don't direct. the still meditative forms that i know are very similar.

[Pietro]

Pietro... different energy, much better. What have you been doing?

 

If it's just a matter of different energies they could be integrated quite easily. But when they follow different principles it is much harder. Especially because the principles are very often not expressed openly. You get them from the practice, and then it's just obvious to you that the others are doing all wrong because they do practices that do not follow those obvious principles.

 

Take for example the chap from the other thread. He rightly points out that in yoga postures the energy would not flow if you do them as they are being taught to him.

So the suggestion he gets is to do them differently. But maybe (and I say maybe because I am no yogin) it was just the aim of that posture to stop the energy over there, to have it rushing back in at the end. A different principle from what we are used to.

 

To the other question I will answer soon enough in my space in the Personal Practice section. Not to clog up this area. But now I have no time. Max, I will send you a message when I do that, so you don't need to keep on checking .

[YMWong]

He then added a few other names. I wish I remember them. But I do remember Buddhism, and Kun Lun.

 

Pietro,

 

this mean BKF most probably reads this board as there is no mention of a 'kunlun' school anywhere in Daoism.

 

The term was first utilized by some early 'wuxia' (martial novels) writers and later employed by the late Liu Beizhong (Pei Chung) in Taiwan. His school, which had quite a few following and is still somehow popular there, practices a mix of martial arts and meditation derived from different traditions in China.

 

Nothing to do, at least for as much as I read here, with what this guy Max does.

 

It is however quite interesting to see what kind of interest and following can people like this Max or Verdesi can have in the west.

 

To each their own, I guess.

 

YM

Edited May 30, 2008 by YMWong

[Pietro]

Pietro,

 

this mean BKF most probably reads this board as there is no mention of a 'kunlun' school anywhere in Daoism.

...

 

No he doesn't. I know this for sure. But he does get people asking him questions about 25 hours a day.

 

And he did said he knew someone doing kunlun in China. So he asked me if I wanted to (intellectually!) know something. I wasn't interested, so I gently thanked him, but did not took the offer.

 

Regarding the

" there is no mention of a 'kunlun' school anywhere in Daoism"

If there was somwhere where all the school of Daoism where listed. Somwhere open, and public, then yes you could make sucha claim. But lacking that, and being Daoism a teaching that has no central authority, no central list, and generally under the foot of the power, more often than above, then you really cannot make such claim.

 

FOr as much that I wish you could. It would make all our life so much easier.

 

Pietro

[Sahaj Nath]

Pietro,

 

...as there is no mention of a 'kunlun' school anywhere in Daoism.

 

 

this is simply not true.

 

kunlun school is one of the oldest disciplined schools still in existence. it predates wudan by about 1,000 years.

 

as i said, the wild goose system is of the kunlun school. it's over 1800 years old.

[dao zhen]

I do not know much about history and the like.......

 

But my Master was talking to me about Kunlun being a place where in ancient times there were hermits and wizards training in the deep mountains.........

 

Yet, he did not mention it as "Daoism" per say......

 

He said it was a place he loved greatly, and he seemed in awe of the Kunlun mountain range.......

 

Makes me want to take a trip there.......

 

I know there are many legends about Kunlun, and a few movies and such here in China that have a lot of fantasy about the place.....

[YMWong]

No he doesn't. I know this for sure. But he does get people asking him questions about 25 hours a day.

 

[...]

 

FOr as much that I wish you could. It would make all our life so much easier.

 

Pietro

 

Let's put it this way then: in 30 years of dwelving in Daoist Studies in China I have never heard or read of any Kunlun School. And, yes, there are lists of Daoist Schools thou of course they can hardly been called "complete" as they were written by *people* who hardly knew it all.

 

If BKF knows of a Kunlun school in China, apart from the Taiwanese line as I said, I'd be most interested to hear more info about that.

 

'Kunlun' the name is of course everywhere in China/Daoism but that's a different issue.

 

YM

 

this is simply not true.

 

kunlun school is one of the oldest disciplined schools still in existence. it predates wudan by about 1,000 years.

 

as i said, the wild goose system is of the kunlun school. it's over 1800 years old.

 

I'd be happy to see evidence of this, thanks

 

YM

[neidan practitioner]

Let's put it this way then: in 30 years of dwelving in Daoist Studies in China I have never heard or read of any Kunlun School. And, yes, there are lists of Daoist Schools thou of course they can hardly been called "complete" as they were written by *people* who hardly knew it all.

[...]

YM

 

I have run across references to the 'Kunlun School' of Taoism from

Yang Meijun (now deceased), who first introduced Da Yan Qigong in China after the Cultural Revolution

ended. She apparently learned the Da Yan Qigong system from here grandfather,

who pased the system on to her. Yang Meijun referred to herself as

"The inheritor of the 27th Generation of Dayan Qi Gong, Kunlun School".

( See: http://www.dayan-qigong.org.uk/authorization/ )

Yang Meijun has also referred to the origin of Da Yan Qigong as coming from the 'Kunlun

School of Taoism', in a short video clip of her that I have seen, that was made when she was ninety.

Whether she got that information from her grandfather or not, I'm not sure, but maybe

she wrote further on this somewhere, or maybe detailed interviews have been done with her.

 

I came across another website for 'Kunlun Shan Qigong' which also claims to originate from

the Kunlun mountains, and which is apparently similar to Da Yan Qigong, though apparently from a

different source. The story goes that this style of Qigong originated from a monk named Dao An

(some say Buddhist, some say Taoist) from the Kunlun mountains in the Jin Dynasty. Not sure

where this information originates from though. Maybe there is information on this monk named

Dao An written of somewhere, or maybe this information was just passed on verbally...

[YMWong]

Yang Meijun has also referred to the origin of Da Yan Qigong as coming from the 'Kunlun School of Taoism', in a short video clip of her that I have seen, that was made when she was ninety.

Whether she got that information from her grandfather or not, I'm not sure, but maybe

she wrote further on this somewhere, or maybe detailed interviews have been done with her.

 

This is what she says and her words have the same authority of Max or anybody else.

Again until she can come up with hard evidence (i.e. something older than her saying), in my opinion of course, the Kunlun Pai name comes from Jin Yong's martial novel - which came well before Max or YMJ.

 

 

http://wuxiapedia.com/novels/jin_yong/heav...n_slaying_sabre

 

By the way, just like with Taiwan Liu's made up (name) Kunlun, I don't think what the late YMJ did had any logical similarity with Max's, is it not ?

 

I came across another website for 'Kunlun Shan Qigong' which also claims to originate from

the Kunlun mountains, and which is apparently similar to Da Yan Qigong, though apparently from a

different source. The story goes that this style of Qigong originated from a monk named Dao An

(some say Buddhist, some say Taoist) from the Kunlun mountains in the Jin Dynasty. Not sure

where this information originates from though. Maybe there is information on this monk named

Dao An written of somewhere, or maybe this information was just passed on verbally...

 

Everything is always possible, of course, but certain things are more possible than others I guess

 

YM

Edited May 31, 2008 by YMWong

[Pietro]

in 30 years of dwelving in Daoist Studies in China I have never heard or read of any Kunlun School.

This is talking, finally a well stated claim.

 

Keep it like this and we might reach something.

 

If BKF knows of a Kunlun school in China, apart from the Taiwanese line as I said, I'd be most interested to hear more info about that.

 

Next time you meet him, you should ask him.

For me I will not see him for quite some time, so I assume by that time I will have more pressing things to ask.

 

'Kunlun' the name is of course everywhere in China/Daoism but that's a different issue.

 

Yes, I think we need to distinguish.

 

There are many practices that orignated from those mountains. Not just the KunLun meditation.

 

FOr example, the meditation I study with BKF are also said to originate from there. But they are not the same meditation.

[YMWong]

This is talking, finally a well stated claim.

 

Keep it like this and we might reach something.

 

Well, I can only speak for what I know and what I see.

Always, like everybody else.

 

So *there is not* stands of course for 'not that I know', it could not be otherwise.

 

There are many practices that orignated from those mountains. Not just the KunLun meditation.

 

Again, one must read these 'origins' in their actual perspective.

 

In chinese, for instance, we say *ten thousand* to mean "a lot".

 

There is basically NO actual transmission coming from Kunlun because the mountain is only a symbol: father/mother of all mountains, connected to Xiwangmu etc.

 

Those are all pretty back on time.

 

Moreover, daoist terminology is intended for initiates.

Kunlun, in this respect, is usually referred as the head, the *niwan* palace ... it is inside and not outside.

 

All IMHO, if that was not clear

 

YM