Any religion spread by force got nothing to offer

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Opinions?

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Thing is… if you have something of valuesto offer, why do you have to force it upon people? 

[ChiDragon]

Taoist and Buddhist do not force their religious beliefs to others. It's only up to the believer's own free will to accept them.

[心神 ~]

 

I think... anything can be forced upon a person or people. In theory, things shouldn't be forced, but also an ideal / religion / rule doesn't lack value or meaning just because someone feels compelled to enforce it.

 

Also, how is force defined here?

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

1 minute ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

 

 

Also, how is force defined here

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Verden
 

does this qaulify?

Edited October 15 by NaturaNaturans

[心神 ~]

7 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Verden
 

does this qaulify?

 

Of course. What about laws regulating "ethical & moral" behavior? Laws are sometimes rooted in religion / philosophy. At what point does "non-violent" rule become force?

 

[Gerard]

5 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Buddhist do not force their religious beliefs to others

They come close hence why I disregard Buddhism completely (amongst a myriad of other reasons).

 

It's not what the Buddha taught (so not valid).

 

From one Buddhist monastery here in Australia (online manifesto):

 

It aims to transcend today's bewildering confusion of Buddhist gurus, dogmas and techniques by returning to the original teachings of the Buddha as found in the early parts of the Pali canon, and in the living practice of the great meditation masters in the Forest Tradition.

 

 

They sound pretty much fundamentalist, Taliban-like and dogmatic.

 

NO, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

 

Taoism (and here's where many people still don't get it), is not a RELIGION; it's actually the world's oldest SCIENCE and a very accurate one to say the least. 
 

And to respond to the OP:

 

Religions have nothing to offer, they are the opium of the people. 
 

NO RELIGION, just self-realisation and understanding the laws of reality. It's all that it matters. 

Edited October 16 by Gerard

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Thing is… if you have something of valuesto offer, why do you have to force it upon people? 

 

For their own good !  

 

   - ironic wasn't it ? 

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, Gerard said:

Taoism (and here's where many people still don't get it), is not a RELIGION; it's actually the world's oldest SCIENCE and a very accurate one to say the least. 
 

FYI Taoism has two categories. One is philosophy and the other is religion. In the west, however, by the term Taoism was referred as the Taotist religion.

Edited October 16 by ChiDragon

[心神 ~]

 

@Gerard

 

This scientist (a physicist, I believe) doesn't claim that Buddhism is a science, exactly, but rather that it is rooted in a scientific framework and the laws of nature.

 

I'd be curious to know what you think of his work and his perspective.

 

[forestofclarity]

Religions don't force their beliefs on people. Believers and followers force their beliefs on people. This is the result of a devolutionary process per the Dao De Jing in my opinion (i.e. DDJ 38, which as the first verse I have trouble passing since it seems so pithy). 

[Sahaja]

While I agree that Buddhists are less prone to using violent or oppressive means than their Abrahamic counterparts, recent history in Sri Lanka and Myanmar  shows they are not immune. 

 

i think that once any religion gets institutionalized and entangled with royalty/government , somebody is likely going to suffer. Usually someone from a competing religious or ethnic group. Women often get demonized as well. 
 

As far as Buddhism as a science, I think it may be different at its root from other religions but I also see that people seem to have created a religious framework for it, certainly at the grassroots level. It’s particularly ironic how Buddhism seems to have collected religious accoutrements seemingly  so contrary to its founders purported intentions. Daoism also may have started in a similar way (philosophy based on self cultivation practiced by recluses)  but later turned into a religion in the 1st century CE and Laozi turned from an obscure librarian into a god.  Seems like there is a natural pressure to turn things into religions. Makes me wonder about 500 years hence what may have turned into religion. 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

19 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

Of course. What about laws regulating "ethical & moral" behavior? Laws are sometimes rooted in religion / philosophy. At what point does "non-violent" rule become force?

 

Could question. So good I am unable to answer it.

[Cobie]

If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 

(Mathew 10:14, NIV )
 

 

[Master Logray]

I think the post refers to physical force, which is not uncommon amongst monotheism.   Not only conversion involves violence, leaving the religion could also face death. 

[Gerard]

18 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

FYI Taoism has two categories. One is philosophy and the other is religion. In the west, however, by the term Taoism was referred as the Taotist religion.

Three in fact:

 

Scientific. Yin is cold to touch (ice) and likewise Yang is hot (fire).
 

Wood expands and Metal contracts (Five Forces/Spirits science).

 

Qi travels methodically and continuously throughout the FIVE ENERGY NETWORKS. 365/24/7

 

Every year Qi adopts a different phase; eg. 2024 is Year of the Wood Dragon:

 

Earth + Wood

 

Spleen-Stomach + Liver & Gallbladder are the dominant forces in 2024.

 

I can carry on with endless scientific laws, which are the underlying mechanism upon how reality works.

 

............................................

[Gerard]

12 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

@Gerard

 

This scientist (a physicist, I believe) doesn't claim that Buddhism is a science, exactly, but rather that it is rooted in a scientific framework and the laws of nature.

 

I'd be curious to know what you think of his work and his perspective.

 

Another aspect that I try to highlight is the CONSISTENCY of Buddha Dhamma

 

I can see how consistently they have missed THE LAW OF THE YIN & THE YANG for the past 2,500 years. For that very reason, it's easy to dismiss Buddhism. From my own personal perspective based on my own practice, I have no interest in their methodology.

 

 

Edited October 16 by Gerard

[ChiDragon]

23 minutes ago, Gerard said:

Scientific. Yin is cold to touch (ice) and likewise Yang is hot (fire).
 

Wood expands and Metal contracts (Five Forces/Spirits science).

 

Are you familiar with the Yijing, 易經? It seems that is where you are extracting the information from. I don't think that is supporting our original argument of interest. 

I think We are 牛頭不答馬嘴 (a cow is talking to a horse).

Edited October 16 by ChiDragon

[Gerard]

I'm not an intellectual. I don't read Taoist, Buddhist or books based on similar methodologies.

 

Ba Gua circle walking, walking meditation, grounding work and a bit of seated meditation plus hiking in nature. A life of a hermit and what I know is a result of how I live.

 

You can't buy or read about wisdom.

 

You either get it or you don't. End of story. 
 

And here ends my contribution on this thread. I don't get involved in arguments anymore, it bocks the Qi.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

20 hours ago, Sahaja said:

Makes me wonder about 500 years hence what may have turned into religion. 

Gamer girl bath water will be the relics of the future and Andrew Tate will be revered as a prophet.

[Thrice Daily]

From Dust to Dust, just like the stars aren’t we.
 

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. 
 

And Religion as an institution like String theory was a total con job. 

I blame the monetary system. 
 

It will all come out in the wash though. Like P Diddies Baby Oil.
 

 

[forestofclarity]

13 hours ago, Gerard said:

I can see how consistently they have missed THE LAW OF THE YIN & THE YANG

 

Just for public knowledge, this is not true if one is familiar with any form of Tantric Buddhism. Or Zen/Chan. 

 

2 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Gamer girl bath water will be the relics of the future and Andrew Tate will be revered as a prophet.

 

Sam Harris has suggested it might be Star Wars. I can only imagine what type of religion could form around an initial discovery of the first trilogy, then a schism when the additional movies are revealed. 

[Thrice Daily]

21 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

 

Of course. What about laws regulating "ethical & moral" behavior? Laws are sometimes rooted in religion / philosophy. At what point does "non-violent" rule become force?

I remember standing in front of a Buddha statue, It was a huge golden Statue in a glass case (in a room previously set up to host playboy style parties, lovely old building in York U.K.) 

 

At that moment I’m wanting to take things to the next level in my commitment, but then one problem arisen in my mind. “pacifism”, can I not use my Martial arts now, should I be 100% none violent?
 

I realised this is not for me. I would rather take the downfall and defend myself. I’m no good to my family if I’d dead, that’s what I thought. I shrugged my shoulders at the Buddha and turned my back on that level of pacifism.

 

The None Violent rule becomes force only if someone directly threatens my life or families life. Other than that I’m cool and peaceful. I think that applies to most cool and peaceful people.

 

Sadly people try to take advantage of this. And would still rather rape pillage plunder and control others … 

Buddhists and ‘others’ fall fall prey to this if too gently and peaceful.

 

Better for society though if peace is a rule and violence is outlawed over almost any circumstance. Children exposures to watch and violence simply pass it on generation to generation otherwise.

 

At some point to be civilised we had to decide/cut off from the old ways… 

 

but some are opposed to life and think murder is fine under many circumstance. Then we are back again to the immovable object meeting an unstoppable force, and none violence becomes force once more.

 

Struth 
 

And another star is born. How are stars born exactly anyway?…

Edited October 17 by Thrice Daily

[Sahaja]

14 hours ago, Gerard said:

Three in fact:

 

Scientific. Yin is cold to touch (ice) and likewise Yang is hot (fire).
 

Wood expands and Metal contracts (Five Forces/Spirits science).

 

Qi travels methodically and continuously throughout the FIVE ENERGY NETWORKS. 365/24/7

 

Every year Qi adopts a different phase; eg. 2024 is Year of the Wood Dragon:

 

Earth + Wood

 

Spleen-Stomach + Liver & Gallbladder are the dominant forces in 2024.

 

I can carry on with endless scientific laws, which are the underlying mechanism upon how reality works.

 

............................................

Practiced with the Wood tiger this morning. Its cool when the internal martial arts make a measurable physical connection in the body that is based on the 5 element model. It takes it way beyond the conceptual when the flesh contorts/twists/ changes from a cause that appears unrelated based on a Western understanding of physiology.  Dudes that discovered this stuff must have been crazy smart and perceptive. 
 

perhaps in 500 years the US will have the cult of the orange George Washington who saved it from democracy. Perhaps it’s already there. 

[blue eyed snake]

On 16-10-2024 at 4:21 PM, forestofclarity said:

Religions don't force their beliefs on people. Believers and followers force their beliefs on people. This is the result of a devolutionary process per the Dao De Jing in my opinion (i.e. DDJ 38, which as the first verse I have trouble passing since it seems so pithy). 

 

The Jehovah witnesses have to peddle their brand of religion to other people to fulfill being a good Jehovah witness.

Going from door to door on sundays.

 

and I think there are more smaller offshoots that do this.

I have a devout friend who tried that on me many years ago when our friendship was still young, I quickly helped her out of her dream, no way you will be successful and it'll ruin our friendship.

 

were still friends, but sometimes we have a row and sometime ago she again tried  to push her belief on me.

 

I think it is in the rules of the particular brand of christianity she is enrolled with.