Any religion spread by force got nothing to offer

[EFreethought]

6 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

Sam Harris has suggested it might be Star Wars. I can only imagine what type of religion could form around an initial discovery of the first trilogy, then a schism when the additional movies are revealed. 

 

OT, but here is a joke I read recently:

 

Why were the Star Wars trilogies release out of order?

 

In charge of the schedule Yoda was.

 

[ChiDragon]

On 10/15/2024 at 2:12 PM, 心神 ~ said:

 

Of course. What about laws regulating "ethical & moral" behavior? Laws are sometimes rooted in religion / philosophy. At what point does "non-violent" rule become force?

 

Non-violent force is when someone comes to knock on my door to brainwash me. I was told if I don't believe in God or accept Jesus as my savior, then I am a sinner. 

At my college period, I went to a baptist church to find out what Christianity was a about. One day, in a Sunday service, I was sitting next the preacher's wife. The speaker performing the service shouted aloud: "those who accepted Jesus as my savior please standup." All the sudden, I had felt two hands pushed me out to the isle. At the moment, I felt I was coerced to accept something against my will. Since then, I tried to act like a Christian but failed and left the church.

At that time, I had met this Christian girl was very strong in her belief. She was very coercive too. I heard her said to other Christians, we must encourage him(me) stronger before his mind becomes weaken.

At another time, during a night fellowship, the same preacher was staring at me and repeated a few times: "those who accepted Jesus as my savior please standup." I had a strong feeling that he was trying not to fail his power of preaching. Sorry, I had disappointed him again!

[心神 ~]

27 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 

"At the moment, I felt I was coerced to accept something against my will. Since then, I tried to act like a Christian but failed and left the church."

"At that time, I had met this Christian girl was very strong in her belief. She was very coercive too."
 

 

Coercion is a great word for that kind of force, sums up that behavior nicely. 

 

Since the thread specifies religion, is social coercion only disagreeable in matters of faith? 

 

How do you feel about coercion regarding public policy? Arranged marriage, child policies, inoculation and isolation for public health and safety, etc?

 

Is social coercion ever acceptable, in your opinion?

 

Edited October 17 by 心神 ~

[Thrice Daily]

49 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

Since the thread specifies religion, is social coercion only disagreeable in matters of faith? 

Brilliant point,

No,, especially in a world with people exhibiting more and more of the deadly tropes of personality disorders…

 

[IMHO the whole governments at large are an arm of the deep state and are highly coercive]

On a more local level,,

Lots of dark triad types will use coercion. Calling Police, Social services,  friends that easily believe lies and trickery. (Flying monkeys as they are better known)

 

to gaslight, stonewall, defame and slander. (Gotta watch I don’t judge to harshly and miss the plank in my own eye though, I try my best)
 

I’m very interested in this subject and feel these people need religion or the deeply healing effects of a belief system like Buddhism or Taoism , or the Teachings of Christ… but shouldn’t be pushed on anyone… 

 

Still I fear for most genuine Personality Disorders, they are never going to be healed. Too broken too young. 
 

it’s usually due to parents not expressing love early on, being demanding without expressing gratitude and understanding or a mixture of both. Also not socialising kids in the early years and/or exposing kids to extreme emotional outbursts.

 

it shatters the ego, and splits it, creating a (false ego) mask at the front and a very young and frightened Ego at the back. Unable to function and grow. So the Mask does all the work.

 

Its possible personally traits don’t deviate all the way to the pathological though, some people get away unscathed from bad early childhoods,

 

but it’s quite likely they will develop the tropes, haughtiness, infantile games, highly manipulative, extreme rage etc.

 

These can become extremely manipulative and coercive people and damage individuals , families and societies (via governmental institutions, universities etc,)

 

Such a shame for them . Most project so heavily onto others their own unresolved shame and guilt they don’t realise it’s actually their own. 

and ironically act the most shamelessly. Lies for example totally 💯 easy for them of it fits their narrative … very coercive and I’d add insidious…

 

They really need so much more compassion but it’s hard on care givers emotionally. Very tough. A true test of capacity of virtue and one i’d rather not for go full time.

 

There is so much more to Narcissism to how the term is banded around and applied to people. It’s often not what people think it is from how I see people talking about it online, even a lot of professionals that don’t specialise specifically imho 

 

coercive behaviour can be such a slippery fish, hopefully not pathological though, that’s another thing entirely 🐠 

 

I think most Romans were like this, especially around main centres like Rome. I blame lead poisoning as the main culprit…

Edited October 17 by Thrice Daily

[ChiDragon]

42 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

Coercion is a great word for that kind of force, sums up that behavior nicely. 

 

Since the thread specifies religion, is social coercion only disagreeable in matters of faith? 

 

How do you feel about coercion regarding public policy? Arranged marriage, child policies, inoculation and isolation for public health and safety, etc?

 

Is social coercion ever acceptable, in your opinion?

 

Thank you!
No, social coercion is not the only disagreeable in matters of faith. 

IMO Arranged marriage, and divorce does not allowed, is not acceptable. Throughout the history of China, there were many unhappy women. Nowadays, there are some seniors still living with their partners from this kind of arrangement. Somehow, they just tried to cope with it.

From the point of view of a Taoist, child policies, inoculation and isolation for public health and safety are acceptable.

Social coercion if only good for the people is totally acceptable. However, in America, some people do reject it due to the bill of rights. Ofc They have their own choice to do so. Under an emperor ruler, there was no choice but to obey.  

[Gerard]

8 hours ago, Sahaja said:

1.Practiced with the Wood tiger this morning. 2.Dudes that discovered this stuff must have been crazy smart and perceptive. 
 

 

1. What do you mean by Wood Tiger?

 

2. Same as the way the internal organs vibrate which can be detected by pulse diagnosis in any TCM course. This stuff is very complicated and how did ancient Taoists figure it out?

 

POWER OF OBSERVATION. It all comes to that.

 

The whole of Taoism is based in very accurate scientific principles which all stem from the universal law of Yin & Yang. The cascading effect:

 

Spirit gives rise to form:

 

Wuji ---> Taiji ---> Liang yi (Yin & Yang split like cell division: male and female, light & dark) and via the Five Forces/Spirits physical reality is created in all directions.) ---> Si Xiang ---> Ba Gua (the manifested totality).

 

Yes very observant and highly analytical and perceptive ancient Taoists. They had nothing to do other than cultivate and observe the action of all the subtle laws within themselves and also by observing the changes in the natural environment which are a reflection of what is taking place inside of us. 
 

Change is a constant. 

 

 

 

[Dedicated]

On 16/10/2024 at 8:01 AM, NaturaNaturans said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Verden
 

does this qaulify?

I would put it as people who don't understand the religion they're pushing 

[Master Logray]

On 10/16/2024 at 10:08 AM, Gerard said:

 

Taoism (and here's where many people still don't get it), is not a RELIGION; it's actually the world's oldest SCIENCE and a very accurate one to say the least. 

 

 

 

Taoism does have a religion arm.  As to whether this "religion" qualified as religion, is subjected to argument because it doesn't have some of the traits like preaching, or even a regular set of deities to be worshiped.

 

Taoism has some science inside it.  But is it more appropriate to describe it as one of the "Spiritual Technologies" ?   The whole cultivation system is technique oriented, rather than having experiments and unearthing the hidden secret of the universe.

 

 

 

[Sahaja]

14 hours ago, Gerard said:

 

1. What do you mean by Wood Tiger?

 

2. Same as the way the internal organs vibrate which can be detected by pulse diagnosis in any TCM course. This stuff is very complicated and how did ancient Taoists figure it out?

 

POWER OF OBSERVATION. It all comes to that.

 

The whole of Taoism is based in very accurate scientific principles which all stem from the universal law of Yin & Yang. The cascading effect:

 

Spirit gives rise to form:

 

Wuji ---> Taiji ---> Liang yi (Yin & Yang split like cell division: male and female, light & dark) and via the Five Forces/Spirits physical reality is created in all directions.) ---> Si Xiang ---> Ba Gua (the manifested totality).

 

Yes very observant and highly analytical and perceptive ancient Taoists. They had nothing to do other than cultivate and observe the action of all the subtle laws within themselves and also by observing the changes in the natural environment which are a reflection of what is taking place inside of us. 
 

Change is a constant. 

 

 

 

It’s an energetic relationship used in  ba gua (and I guess in Xing Yi as well )
 

Given how old the 5 element model is (well over 2000 years - 2nd or 3rd BCE), it makes me question how it took until the 19th century (Dong Hai Chuan)  to get included in martial arts. I guess Xing yi 5 elements is older but still only 400 years plus or minus. Makes me wonder what was there before these “founders” as I don’t think they figured out these subtle, complex relationships on their own from scratch. Seems like it  would have required some sort of evolution prior to this incorporation into these relatively modern arts.  Particularly if these modern founders focus was fighting, not science. 

 

 

 

[Gerard]

16 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

1. Taoism does have a religion arm.  

 

2. Taoism has some science inside it.

 

 

 

 

1.Yes true but it doesn't have the widespread appeal and push as Buddhism, Hinduism and the Middle Eastern religions except for the Sufi way.

 

2. It has a lot IMO: Medicine, Feng Shui/Divination, Astrology and Physiognomy. 

 

Edited October 19 by Gerard

[Gerard]

12 hours ago, Sahaja said:

Makes me wonder what was there before these “founders” as I don’t think they figured out these subtle, complex relationships on their own from scratch. Seems like it  would have required some sort of evolution prior to this incorporation into these relatively modern arts.  Particularly if these modern founders focus was fighting, not science. 
 

They were not Taoist intellectuals who were in charge of writing texts about their findings plus compiling old texts on the matter; eg. Wu Xing theory; let alone alchemists experimenting with substances that causes many a premature death but thanks to them we have a vast and rich Classical Chinese Medicine system. Herbal Medicine would be nothing today without their experiments and results; cinnabar in small doses clears the heart and calms the mind...earlier on some Taoists died while trying to figure out the correct dose. 

 

 

 

 

[Master Logray]

5 hours ago, Gerard said:

 

1.Yes true but it doesn't have the widespread appeal and push as Buddhism, Hinduism and the Middle Eastern religions except for the Sufi way.

 

2. It has a lot IMO: Medicine, Feng Shui/Divination, Astrology and Physiognomy. 

 

 

Taoists have the so called 5 techniques/arts,  medicine, divination, physiognomy, astrology, immortality.   Some would add martial arts too. 

 

Hinduism, Taoism and Judaism are confined to their own culture/nationals.  Buddhism, has a much wider reach geographically across national boundaries, races and cultures, but is still quite limited.   The genuine international religions are Christianity and Islam only. 

 

[Thrice Daily]

The genuine international religions are Christianity and Islam only. 

 

It’s a shame isn’t it… Personally I feel it would be much better if it were Buddhism. 
 

If you were to define Christianity in one sentence 

 

And Islam in one sentence what would it be?

 

[deep breath] Mine is;

 

1/. Christianity is Buddhism modified for the sake of family.

 

2/. Islam is the best Tribe in the World.

Edited October 19 by Thrice Daily

[心神 ~]

@Thrice Daily

 

Have you read Thich Nhat Hanh's "Living Buddha, Living Christ" ?

 

[Thrice Daily]

21 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

@Thrice Daily

 

Have you read Thich Nhat Hanh's "Living Buddha, Living Christ" ?

 

No but I trust your judgement, so I’ll get on the case 👍 

 

When I realised Christ imow I mentioned it to my partner. I said it’s incredible,

“the Buddha that has been sitting on the moon seat of my heart.

Has now got a face, it’s Jesuses”
 

Think I’ll like reading that book thanks. I’m not really so well read really. Just bits over the years.