Daniel Posted October 29 7 hours ago, Nungali said: So ? What about it ? Briefly: You're saying "Egyptian magic" = "Holy Qabalah"? If so, the author of the book disagrees with you. It contrasts "Egyptian magic" with "Holy Qabalah" as if they are opposites. On 10/22/2024 at 2:37 PM, Nungali said: The Book of Abramelin tells the story of an Egyptian mage The Book of Abramelin is anti-Egyptian magic. It describes Egyptian magic as diabolical, idolatrous, and superstitious. Have you read the book? If so, when was the last time you've read it? From the book: 7 hours ago, Nungali said: The infamous diabolical and infidel one was a Rabbi ... Who had been corrupted by Egyptian magic. Whether or not he is a Rabbi is irrelevant. The topic of discussion is Egyptian mysticism and magic compared to Judaism. The book is pro-Judaism and anti-Egyptian magic. 7 hours ago, Nungali said: in [ the Rabbi's ] Magic he did not in any way make use of the Wisdom of the Lord, but instead availed himself of certain arts and superstitions of infidel and idolatrous nations, in part derived from the Egyptians, 1 together with images of the Medes and of the Persian " ... He did not make use of the Wisdom of the Lord ... " The Rabbi was not practicing Judaism " ... instead ... " What did he do instead? " ... availed himself of certain arts ... " Certain arts? " ... superstitions of infidel and idolatrous nations... " Which ones? " ... derived from the Egyptians, together with images of the Medes and of the Persian ... " The Egyptian together with Persia. Thank you. The author is clearly not in favor of gnostic syncretism, nor Egyptian magic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted October 29 7 hours ago, Nungali said: why did you censor the first sentence hmmmmmmmmmmmm ? There is a page break at that location. See screenshot below: https://sacred-texts.com/grim/abr/abr008.htm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted October 29 6 hours ago, Nungali said: Do Jews need a crown on their head to read Torah . The crown is teffiflin shel-rosh. "Totafos". The instructions follow Jewish law. Only the tefilin shel rosh would be put on, because the individual already put on the entire set in the morning, and, it's inappropriate to put them on again. 6 hours ago, Nungali said: Go on tell me which one is 'the crown ' ; Here is a picture. From the cover of "ohr Ha-seichal" by Rabbi Abulafia whom was one of your sources. It's in a spoiler to save screen space. Notice that the individual in only wearing the head teffilin, not the one on the hand. Again, this is observant of Jewish law. Spoiler Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted October 29 (edited) On 10/20/2024 at 3:47 PM, Nungali said: having placed the lighted Charcoal in the Censer, light the Lamp also. You shall then robe yourself, taking first the White Vestment, and over this you shall put on that 3 of Silk and Gold, then the Girdle, and upon your head you shall place the Crown, and you shall lay the Wand upon the Altar. Then, having put the Perfume in the Censer you shall fall on your knees... Let's break this down: "having placed the lighted Charcoal in the Censer, light the lamp also ... Then having put the Perfume in the censer ..." This corresponds to Exodus 30:7-8. It's the consecration of the tabernacle. The "perfume" is incense. That's why charcoal is added to the bowl. 30:7 והקטיר עליו אהרן קטרת סמים בבקר בבקר בהיטיבו את־הנרת יקטירנה׃ And Aaron shall burn on it sweet incense every morning; when he dresses the lamps, he shall burn incense upon it. 30:8 ובהעלת אהרן את־הנרת בין הערבים יקטירנה קטרת תמיד לפני יהוה לדרתיכם׃ And when Aaron lights the lamps at evening, he shall burn incense upon it, an everlasting incense before the Lord throughout your generations. The Torah: "He shall burn it when he lights the lamps" The Abramelin: "Put charcoal in the censer; light the lamp; add perfume/incense." That's a clear correspondence. " ... You shall then robe yourself, taking first the White Vestment ... " The white robe is called a kittel, קיטל. " ... and over this you shall put on that of Silk and Gold ... " This probably corresponds to the urim v'tumim. " ... then the Girdle ... " The gartel, it's a simple black belt that Jewish men wear during prayer. " ... and upon your head you shall place the Crown ... " Teffilin shel-rosh only, not including the teffilin shel-yad. The translator doesn't know what an "ornament", a "totafos" from Exodus 13, on the head is, so they translate it as crown. " ... and you shall lay the Wand upon the Altar ... " The wand is the "yad", the Torah pointer. " ... Then, having put the Perfume in the Censer ... " It's an incense offering, as stated above. It directly corresponds to Exodus 30. " ... you shall fall on your knees ... " This corresponds to Gen 17:3. God is making a covenant, promising to increase Abraham IF he will walk in the ways of the Lord and be Tamim ( which is often translated as perfect. It's a reference to Noah who is known as a Tzaddik Tam, a "perfect" Tzaddik ) 17:1 ויהי אברם בן־תשעים שנה ותשע שנים וירא יהוה אל־אברם ויאמר אליו אני־אל שדי התהלך לפני והיה תמים׃ And when Abram was ninety nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said to him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be perfect. 17:2 ואתנה בריתי ביני ובינך וארבה אותך במאד מאד׃ And I will make my covenant between me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly. 17:3 ויפל אברם על־פניו וידבר אתו אלהים לאמר׃ And Abram fell on his face; and God talked with him, saying, Establishing a relationship with an HGA is making a covenant. Edited October 29 by Daniel 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted October 29 8 hours ago, Nungali said: The infamous diabolical and infidel one was a Rabbi Then he found the good one , an Egyptian You're hyper-fixated on nationality and ethnicity. Those are distractions just as much as being distracted by the fabrication of ritual implements when the book does not direct the reader in that manner at all. The individual's cultural lineage and family heritage are completely irrelevant. On 10/22/2024 at 2:37 PM, Nungali said: tells the story of an Egyptian mage If it is Egyptian, please: What is the Egyptian word for an HGA? What is the Egyptian word for a ritual censer? What is the Egyptian word for a ritual lamp? What is the Egyptian word for a ritual where a covenant is made with God? What is the Egyptian ritual which corresponds to burning incense in a bowl after lighting a lamp? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted October 29 (edited) Be happy! Edited October 29 by Cobie 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted October 29 11 hours ago, Nungali said: The diabolical one was a German Jew . ... who was practicing superstitious, idolatrous, Egyptian/Persian magic. He is diabolical because of what he is doing, not because of who he is as a German or as a Jew. This "diabolical one" is contrasted with the AbraMelin. Moving on... 13 hours ago, Daniel said: What does Abramelin teach? Does he teach Egyptian ceremonial magic with ritual wands? From Chapter #3: ( https://sacred-texts.com/grim/abr/abr010.htm ). This is what AbraMelin is doing. It is contrasted with Egyptian magic, or at least, one type of Egyptian magic. The aforesaid ABRAMELIN, knowing the ardent desire which I had to learn, he gave me two manuscript books, very similar in form unto these which I now bequeath unto thee, O Lamech, my son; but very obscure: and he told me to copy them for myself with care, which I did, and carefully examined both the one and the other. And he asked me if I had any money, I answered unto him "Yes". He said unto me that he required ten golden florins, which he must himself, according to the order which the Lord had given unto him, distribute by way of alms among seventy-two poor persons, who were obliged to repeat certain Psalms; 1 and having kept the feast of Saturday, which is the day of the Sabbath, he set out to go to ARACHI, because it was requisite that he should himself distribute the money. And he ordered me to fast for three days, that is to say, the Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday following; contenting myself with only a single repast in the day, wherein was to be neither blood nor dead things; 1 also he commanded me to make this commencement with exactness, and not to fail in the least thing, for in order to operate well it is very necessary to begin well, and be instructed me to repeat all the seven 2 psalms of David one single time in these three days; and not to do or practise any servile operation The author must produce a hand written copy, for himself, of two holy-books. Deut 17:18 והיה כשבתו על כסא ממלכתו וכתב לו את־משנה התורה הזאת על־ספר מלפני הכהנים הלוים׃ And it shall be, when he sits upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write for himself a copy of this Torah in a book from that which is before the priests the Levites; The author donates 10 gold florins which are distributed to 72 beggars reciting Psalms This is Ma'asei Merkava. One of the earliest forms of what is now referred to as kabalah. The 72 are 3 angelic chariots, "merkavot" in Hebrew, composed of 24 angels ( technically 12+12 ). 3 are needed because the intent is a petition, an "audience" at the "foot stool" of the almighty which is in a realm referred to as "B'riyah" in Hebrew. It is the "third heaven". The donation of 10 represents all 10 aspects of the individual's soul. These 10 are often referred to as the 10 sefirot. Depending on the school of thought, brining these two together is either called a Yichud, a "unification", or more accurately it would be called a Kiddushin, a "sanctification" in English. The recitation of Psalms are already in process. This is already, in theory, producing a "shefa", an abundant-flow of benevolence and vitality from above. The donation of 10 in gold ( the entirety of the individual's eternal soul ) syncs up the individual's soul with the shefa of the 72. AbraMelin keeps the feast of the Sabbath on Saturday AbraMelin practices Judaism The author is instructed to fast for 3 days This refers to the story of Esther. The author is instructed to recite "the 7 Psalms of David" IIR, there are 7 which begin "L'David". I think, but I'm not sure, these 7 are chosen because of the Lamed. L'David. It's like lightning striking. The author is instructed not to engage in "sevile labor". In Hebrew, this is called "M'lachah". It's the legal term for work prohibited on Sabbath. It is translated as "servile labor". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted October 29 2 minutes ago, Daniel said: … He is diabolical because of what he is doing, not because of who he is as a German or as a Jew … I agree. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted October 29 @Nungali, What are the corresponding Egyptian traditions, practices, concepts to the 6 action-items listed in Chapter 3? If this is an Egyptian mage, I would expect that there are Egyptian concepts which correspond to each of these items. The aspirant writes the book for themself. The aspirant donates to beggars ( in Hebrew tz'dakah ) who are reciting holy-praises. The aspirant religiously / spiritually abstains from work. The aspirant abstains from food and drink for 3 days. Please bring Egyptian examples of these? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted October 29 (edited) 10 hours ago, Daniel said: There is a page break at that location. See screenshot below: https://sacred-texts.com/grim/abr/abr008.htm Okay, you censored it from your quote because there was a page break However that made no difference to your above quote from the same textual source . Its all on the same page (as above ) as the source ! . Edited October 29 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted October 29 8 hours ago, Daniel said: Let's break this down: "having placed the lighted Charcoal in the Censer, light the lamp also ... Then having put the Perfume in the censer ..." This corresponds to Exodus 30:7-8. It's the consecration of the tabernacle. The "perfume" is incense. That's why charcoal is added to the bowl. 30:7 והקטיר עליו אהרן קטרת סמים בבקר בבקר בהיטיבו את־הנרת יקטירנה׃ And Aaron shall burn on it sweet incense every morning; when he dresses the lamps, he shall burn incense upon it. 30:8 ובהעלת אהרן את־הנרת בין הערבים יקטירנה קטרת תמיד לפני יהוה לדרתיכם׃ And when Aaron lights the lamps at evening, he shall burn incense upon it, an everlasting incense before the Lord throughout your generations. The Torah: "He shall burn it when he lights the lamps" The Abramelin: "Put charcoal in the censer; light the lamp; add perfume/incense." Yes, thats right . no one but Jews ever lit charcoal and put incense in it and offered it up to the Gods That's a clear correspondence. " ... You shall then robe yourself, taking first the White Vestment ... " The white robe is called a kittel, קיטל. " ... and over this you shall put on that of Silk and Gold ... " This probably corresponds to the urim v'tumim. " ... then the Girdle ... " The gartel, it's a simple black belt that Jewish men wear during prayer. How can I resist ; " ... and upon your head you shall place the Crown ... " Teffilin shel-rosh only, not including the teffilin shel-yad. The translator doesn't know what an "ornament", a "totafos" from Exodus 13, on the head is, so they translate it as crown. " ... and you shall lay the Wand upon the Altar ... " The wand is the "yad", the Torah pointer. " ... Then, having put the Perfume in the Censer ... " It's an incense offering, as stated above. It directly corresponds to Exodus 30. " ... you shall fall on your knees ... " This corresponds to Gen 17:3. God is making a covenant, promising to increase Abraham IF he will walk in the ways of the Lord and be Tamim ( which is often translated as perfect. It's a reference to Noah who is known as a Tzaddik Tam, a "perfect" Tzaddik ) 17:1 ויהי אברם בן־תשעים שנה ותשע שנים וירא יהוה אל־אברם ויאמר אליו אני־אל שדי התהלך לפני והיה תמים׃ And when Abram was ninety nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said to him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be perfect. 17:2 ואתנה בריתי ביני ובינך וארבה אותך במאד מאד׃ And I will make my covenant between me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly. 17:3 ויפל אברם על־פניו וידבר אתו אלהים לאמר׃ And Abram fell on his face; and God talked with him, saying, Establishing a relationship with an HGA is making a covenant. The whole thing is a copy of Egyptian ritual which is where the Jews copied it from . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted October 29 8 hours ago, Daniel said: You're hyper-fixated on nationality and ethnicity. Those are distractions just as much as being distracted by the fabrication of ritual implements when the book does not direct the reader in that manner at all. The individual's cultural lineage and family heritage are completely irrelevant. And YOU are hyper fixated on on trying to divert away from the issue that you got all mixed up with the characters and made a blunder on this one ! If it is Egyptian, please: What is the Egyptian word for an HGA? What is the Egyptian word for a ritual censer? What is the Egyptian word for a ritual lamp? What is the Egyptian word for a ritual where a covenant is made with God? What is the Egyptian ritual which corresponds to burning incense in a bowl after lighting a lamp? What sort of silly 'Daniel challenge is this now ? Are you trying to test my knowledge of Egyptian WORDS ? For Egyptians 'angels' took on different forms , depending on what type of angel , a personal or guardian angel might be depicted Incense in a bowl ; There are many rituals where they make a covenant with their Gods . Thats the overall purpose of most Egyptian rituals . The lamp is usually lit first ..... it gives of light Egyptian temples where rather dark inside The whole thing and most Jewish ritual is a copy of Egyptian magic, as is some of their stories and prayers . Would you like to see an analysis of the two side by side ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted October 29 4 hours ago, Cobie said: Be happy! With crown and wand and wings , I do bless thee ; 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted October 29 4 hours ago, Daniel said: @Nungali, What are the corresponding Egyptian traditions, practices, concepts to the 6 action-items listed in Chapter 3? If this is an Egyptian mage, I would expect that there are Egyptian concepts which correspond to each of these items. The aspirant writes the book for themself. The aspirant donates to beggars ( in Hebrew tz'dakah ) who are reciting holy-praises. The aspirant religiously / spiritually abstains from work. The aspirant abstains from food and drink for 3 days. Please bring Egyptian examples of these? Well, as you point out 'he was a Jew' ( but that doesnt matter, according to you if one is a Jew or not , anyway ) Of course a Jew is going to graft some of their practices into it , but it is based on Egytptian magic like a lot of original old Jewish traditions culture and ceremony was . There are too many holes in your argument for me to bither fulfilling your requests I will give one example ; 'make copies of the book ( the ritual ) ' you compare with coping the scripture as in jewish tradition . if this was a Jewish tradition he would have been instructed to copy the Torah , not this Abremalin ritual " And it shall be, when he sits upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write for himself a copy of this Torah in a book from that which is before the priests the Levites; " What are you suggesting here Daniel ? That he was going to 'sit upon the throne of his kingdom ' ? That what was being taught was a kind of masked and secret Judaism where the 'operator' does what a King of Judah was instructed to do ? I mean if the whole thing is a straight Jewish ceremony and ritual ..... why not just offer a conversion to Judaism and not be so obscure about it all . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted October 29 4 hours ago, Cobie said: I agree. So do I .... as what i was referring to is not what Daniel twisted it into . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
