Kundalini vs Preheaven Chi

[Eden]

Is Kundalini Shakti the same concept as Preheaven Chi in Taoism? 

In my experience the Hindu is opening themselves and aligning their subtle body for this torroidal kundalini energy to start flowing through the central channel... Taoist is accomplishing the same thing just in a different manner, like cultivating the Jing electromagnetic energy field that holds that body in alignment...

Shakti uniting with Shiva in the crown and their outpouring of divine love producing amrita... same phenomenon of microcosmic orbit and sexual energy (jing) rising as Chi to nourish Shen in the brain to produce the golden elixir... like its same process just different method of cultivation? and slightly different physics of how everything is working... 

Like all spiritual paths more or less aiming for the same final goal, but their methods and ways of getting there are different... and cause of that there is different effects and scenery and phenomena that show up along the way, and not necessarily will you reach the "final goal" with your chosen path.. as some paths have different obstacles to overcome... like with Taoist path for a guy they have to overcome leaking sexual energy to even really begin to part of laying the foundation and building their Jing and Chi in order to nourish Shen... Or the Zen Buddhist may have some ability to rest in a no-mind state during their meditation, but maybe its never "deep" enough to really lead to any profound energetic awakening. Hindu Yogi may cause their kundalini to stir but then they may experience kundalini syndrome and have it fall back down?

[dwai]

Imho, energetic awakening is not necessary for spiritual awakening. Different paths (could) have various methods, results, and goals. For a Hindu Yogi (Yoga is a broad term not restricted to Patanjali Yoga), the objective is Self-Realization - not profound energetic awakening. However, some take the Kundalini awakening path to it. Others might use the path of self-inquiry to get there. 

 

All those things you mention might happen, but they might not. It depends on the sincerity, fortitude, and respect for the tradition and teacher they follow. The rest will fall into place if we take care of those foundational things. 

[Eden]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Imho, energetic awakening is not necessary for spiritual awakening. Different paths (could) have various methods, results, and goals. For a Hindu Yogi (Yoga is a broad term not restricted to Patanjali Yoga), the objective is Self-Realization - not profound energetic awakening. However, some take the Kundalini awakening path to it. Others might use the path of self-inquiry to get there. 

 

All those things you mention might happen, but they might not. It depends on the sincerity, fortitude, and respect for the tradition and teacher they follow. The rest will fall into place if we take care of those foundational things. 

Yes but everything is interconnected, interrelated and interdependent... so those who achieve some sort of spiritual awakening through a more meditative path, inevitably will have energetic shifts and transformations of the body, mind-body-consciousness-spirit-chi-nervous system-physiology-brain chemistry-prana-kundalini.. all interrelated.

maybe there are different depths to how deep realization can be? or how deep spiritual realization has been integrated?

 

[Sahaja]

5 hours ago, Eden said:

Is Kundalini Shakti the same concept as Preheaven Chi in Taoism? 

In my experience the Hindu is opening themselves and aligning their subtle body for this torroidal kundalini energy to start flowing through the central channel... Taoist is accomplishing the same thing just in a different manner, like cultivating the Jing electromagnetic energy field that holds that body in alignment...

Shakti uniting with Shiva in the crown and their outpouring of divine love producing amrita... same phenomenon of microcosmic orbit and sexual energy (jing) rising as Chi to nourish Shen in the brain to produce the golden elixir... like its same process just different method of cultivation? and slightly different physics of how everything is working... 

Like all spiritual paths more or less aiming for the same final goal, but their methods and ways of getting there are different... and cause of that there is different effects and scenery and phenomena that show up along the way, and not necessarily will you reach the "final goal" with your chosen path.. as some paths have different obstacles to overcome... like with Taoist path for a guy they have to overcome leaking sexual energy to even really begin to part of laying the foundation and building their Jing and Chi in order to nourish Shen... Or the Zen Buddhist may have some ability to rest in a no-mind state during their meditation, but maybe it’s never "deep" enough to really lead to any profound energetic awakening. Hindu Yogi may cause their kundalini to stir but then they may experience kundalini syndrome and have it fall back down?

There is an interesting parallel between amrta and the jade fluid in the two traditions (tantric yoga  and Neidan) though there is variance in methodology (e.g Khecari mudra/Nyasa vs MCO).
My understanding is that Jing is not sexual energy though it may be a very, very small part of it. . According to the early Daoists (Nei Yeh) Jing is qi in consolidated form that is required for life and that we are naturally endowed with. According to them, it is lost through desire, emotions and selfishness. Stilling these things stills the Jing allowing it to be in its natural state (and to fuel the cultivation process in Neidan). 
my understanding is there are paths of addition that cultivate energetics and paths of subtraction that don’t. However, in the end the paths of subtraction also end up energetically in the same place as the paths of addition.   I imagine this last step for those on the paths of subtraction must be quite exciting!
I think people tend to dumb down Kundalini into simple energetics.  My understanding is that Kundalini is at a much deeper level than cultivating Jing and  qi. It’s more like at the refining shen level in Neidan. In yoga people get kriyas and call it Kundalini, in Daoist internal arts they get the similar kriyas and call it Yang qi or Zi Fa Gong. It’s less problematic in Daoist arts because they have cultivated a strong grounding mechanism, the lower Dan tian, to keep the excess Yang qi out of the head. Yoga has the kanda but I don’t think that many cultivate this as a grounding mechanism leading to more energetic issues with “Kundalini”. 

 

[dwai]

22 hours ago, Eden said:

Yes but everything is interconnected, interrelated and interdependent... so those who achieve some sort of spiritual awakening through a more meditative path, inevitably will have energetic shifts and transformations of the body, mind-body-consciousness-spirit-chi-nervous system-physiology-brain chemistry-prana-kundalini.. all interrelated.

I think it comes down to what one focuses on.  

22 hours ago, Eden said:

maybe there are different depths to how deep realization can be? or how deep spiritual realization has been integrated?

 

Realization of true nature is one and done. There is a permanent switch. But how the mind reconciles with it of course is dependent on the story each person holds on to. Some entirely let go of all stories, so there’s nothing more to be done. 

[Thrice Daily]

On 22/10/2024 at 12:37 AM, Sahaja said:

There is an interesting parallel between amrta and the jade fluid in the two traditions (tantric yoga  and Neidan) though there is variance in methodology (e.g Khecari mudra/Nyasa vs MCO).
My understanding is that Jing is not sexual energy though it may be a very, very small part of it. . According to the early Daoists (Nei Yeh) Jing is qi in consolidated form that is required for life and that we are naturally endowed with. According to them, it is lost through desire, emotions and selfishness. Stilling these things stills the Jing allowing it to be in its natural state (and to fuel the cultivation process in Neidan). 
my understanding is there are paths of addition that cultivate energetics and paths of subtraction that don’t. However, in the end the paths of subtraction also end up energetically in the same place as the paths of addition.   I imagine this last step for those on the paths of subtraction must be quite exciting!
I think people tend to dumb down Kundalini into simple energetics.  My understanding is that Kundalini is at a much deeper level than cultivating Jing and  qi. It’s more like at the refining shen level in Neidan. In yoga people get kriyas and call it Kundalini, in Daoist internal arts they get the similar kriyas and call it Yang qi or Zi Fa Gong. It’s less problematic in Daoist arts because they have cultivated a strong grounding mechanism, the lower Dan tian, to keep the excess Yang qi out of the head. Yoga has the kanda but I don’t think that many cultivate this as a grounding mechanism leading to more energetic issues with “Kundalini”. 

 

Totally agree with you here. I'd like to hear about the different physical mechanisms that are used with the will in Yoga to raise Kundalini Shakti mindfully, or i'm wondering is this always automatic and just happens along with Pranayama and good Asana practice. 

 

It did with me when I learned Hatha, but I didn't have information on he front channel and bring energy down, lots of it was rising and I had a feeling I should have been doing something with it to connect a circuit or something but I couldnt figure it out through intuition, it just kept rising up and felt like it was leaving via the top of my head. 

 

The science of the ida and pingala are also interesting to me and have the experiences and fuctions line up with Taoism, the channels and concept of yin-yang.

 

[Sahaja]

On 10/29/2024 at 10:52 AM, Thrice Daily said:

Totally agree with you here. I'd like to hear about the different physical mechanisms that are used with the will in Yoga to raise Kundalini Shakti mindfully, or i'm wondering is this always automatic and just happens along with Pranayama and good Asana practice. 

 

It did with me when I learned Hatha, but I didn't have information on he front channel and bring energy down, lots of it was rising and I had a feeling I should have been doing something with it to connect a circuit or something but I couldnt figure it out through intuition, it just kept rising up and felt like it was leaving via the top of my head. 

 

The science of the ida and pingala are also interesting to me and have the experiences and fuctions line up with Taoism, the channels and concept of yin-yang.

 

Here is a link to some articles that describe some of the physical mechanisms involved from a Nath Tantric Hatha Yoga perspective. The article on Shakti chalana talks about one of the main processes used, the churning. This stuff is challenging, takes a long time and requires an experienced guide. 

https://shadowyoga.com/articles

 

[GuiKang]

On 21/10/2024 at 11:07 PM, Eden said:

Is Kundalini Shakti the same concept as Preheaven Chi in Taoism? 

In my experience the Hindu is opening themselves and aligning their subtle body for this torroidal kundalini energy to start flowing through the central channel... Taoist is accomplishing the same thing just in a different manner, like cultivating the Jing electromagnetic energy field that holds that body in alignment...

Shakti uniting with Shiva in the crown and their outpouring of divine love producing amrita... same phenomenon of microcosmic orbit and sexual energy (jing) rising as Chi to nourish Shen in the brain to produce the golden elixir... like its same process just different method of cultivation? and slightly different physics of how everything is working... 

Like all spiritual paths more or less aiming for the same final goal, but their methods and ways of getting there are different... and cause of that there is different effects and scenery and phenomena that show up along the way, and not necessarily will you reach the "final goal" with your chosen path.. as some paths have different obstacles to overcome... like with Taoist path for a guy they have to overcome leaking sexual energy to even really begin to part of laying the foundation and building their Jing and Chi in order to nourish Shen... Or the Zen Buddhist may have some ability to rest in a no-mind state during their meditation, but maybe its never "deep" enough to really lead to any profound energetic awakening. Hindu Yogi may cause their kundalini to stir but then they may experience kundalini syndrome and have it fall back down?

Nope. Those kundalini thing is post heaven Qi

[Bindi]

On 22/10/2024 at 3:58 AM, dwai said:

Imho, energetic awakening is not necessary for spiritual awakening. Different paths (could) have various methods, results, and goals. For a Hindu Yogi (Yoga is a broad term not restricted to Patanjali Yoga), the objective is Self-Realization - not profound energetic awakening. However, some take the Kundalini awakening path to it. Others might use the path of self-inquiry to get there. 

 

All those things you mention might happen, but they might not. It depends on the sincerity, fortitude, and respect for the tradition and teacher they follow. The rest will fall into place if we take care of those foundational things. 

In my view, the kundalini path to nonduality is qualitatively different from the self-inquiry path. Kundalini is unique in that it has the potential to address all layers of karma directly.

 

This distinction highlights the difference between becoming a jivanmukta and being nondually realised: The nondually realised person transcends identification with karma and sees it as illusory but doesn’t necessarily aim to remove it. As a result, the karma remains intact, even if it is considered to be no longer binding.

In contrast, kundalini is a transformative force that works to dissolve karma completely, making liberation not just a matter of perception but a permanent reality.

IMO Kundalini isn’t merely a preference or an optional path, it’s part of the innate design of complete spiritual awakening. 

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, Bindi said:

In my view, the kundalini path to nonduality is qualitatively different from the self-inquiry path. Kundalini is unique in that it has the potential to address all layers of karma directly.

 

This distinction highlights the difference between becoming a jivanmukta and being nondually realised: The nondually realised person transcends identification with karma and sees it as illusory but doesn’t necessarily aim to remove it. As a result, the karma remains intact, even if it is considered to be no longer binding.

In contrast, kundalini is a transformative force that works to dissolve karma completely, making liberation not just a matter of perception but a permanent reality.

IMO Kundalini isn’t merely a preference or an optional path, it’s part of the innate design of complete spiritual awakening. 

You’ve not had either, right?  If so,  it’s mainly your imagination that’s driving your beliefs. 

[Bindi]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

You’ve not had either, right?  If so,  it’s mainly your imagination that’s driving your beliefs. 

It’s true my perspective is based on my own ongoing journey and insights rather than a claim of final attainment. My post reflects how I currently interpret the differences between these paths, informed by kundalini experience, study, and contemplation.

 

That said, what’s your take on the difference between jivanmukti and nondual realisation? 

[Bindi]

On 22/10/2024 at 12:07 AM, Eden said:

Is Kundalini Shakti the same concept as Preheaven Chi in Taoism? 

In my experience the Hindu is opening themselves and aligning their subtle body for this torroidal kundalini energy to start flowing through the central channel... Taoist is accomplishing the same thing just in a different manner, like cultivating the Jing electromagnetic energy field that holds that body in alignment...

Shakti uniting with Shiva in the crown and their outpouring of divine love producing amrita... same phenomenon of microcosmic orbit and sexual energy (jing) rising as Chi to nourish Shen in the brain to produce the golden elixir... like its same process just different method of cultivation? and slightly different physics of how everything is working... 

Like all spiritual paths more or less aiming for the same final goal, but their methods and ways of getting there are different... and cause of that there is different effects and scenery and phenomena that show up along the way, and not necessarily will you reach the "final goal" with your chosen path.. as some paths have different obstacles to overcome... like with Taoist path for a guy they have to overcome leaking sexual energy to even really begin to part of laying the foundation and building their Jing and Chi in order to nourish Shen... Or the Zen Buddhist may have some ability to rest in a no-mind state during their meditation, but maybe its never "deep" enough to really lead to any profound energetic awakening. Hindu Yogi may cause their kundalini to stir but then they may experience kundalini syndrome and have it fall back down?

I think no system has the complete and final method, though I suspect early daoism or neidan might have been a complete system a long time ago. Like the story of the blind men and the elephant, every path thinks they have the right way, but they are most likely just feeling one section of the elephant. 
 

 

[dwai]

15 minutes ago, Bindi said:

It’s true my perspective is based on my own ongoing journey and insights rather than a claim of final attainment. My post reflects how I currently interpret the differences between these paths, informed by kundalini experience, study, and contemplation.

It’s a good idea to have empirical evidence to back our theories. Otherwise one can spend a lifetime chasing after chimeras. 

15 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

That said, what’s your take on the difference between jivanmukti and nondual realisation? 

Jivanmukti happens after nondual realization, once the major vasanas are dissolved. It depends on the degree of purification of the mind (through proper preparatory work - krtopasati). The other alternative is videhamukti (which happens after the body is dropped). They are both predicated on Nondual realization.

[Bindi]

6 hours ago, dwai said:

It’s a good idea to have empirical evidence to back our theories. Otherwise one can spend a lifetime chasing after chimeras. 

Jivanmukti happens after nondual realization, once the major vasanas are dissolved. It depends on the degree of purification of the mind (through proper preparatory work - krtopasati). The other alternative is videhamukti (which happens after the body is dropped). They are both predicated on Nondual realization.

 

It is my understanding that jivanmukti happens after all vasanas are dissolved, you’re lowering the bar:

 

"The seeker must destroy the vasanas and the karma associated with them. The mind, clouded by these vasanas, is not fit to realize the non-dual Self. Only when the vasanas are removed, can the Self shine forth in its full glory."

- Vivekachudamani by Adi Shankara

 

- “Liberation is the total destruction of vasanas.” 
- Vivekachudamani by Adi Shankara, verse 317

 

"The mind is a bundle of vasanas. When the vasanas are reduced to zero, the mind ceases to exist, and the Self is realized."

- Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, Talk 528

I’m not chasing chimeras, kundalini is merely showing herself to be a very thorough clearer of all samskaras and all vasanas. 
 

Edited Wednesday at 08:21 AM by Bindi

[stirling]

On 10/21/2024 at 9:07 AM, Eden said:

... Or the Zen Buddhist may have some ability to rest in a no-mind state during their meditation, but maybe its never "deep" enough to really lead to any profound energetic awakening. Hindu Yogi may cause their kundalini to stir but then they may experience kundalini syndrome and have it fall back down?

 

All that is necessary in Buddhism is to realize emptiness by resting in it. No energetic component is necessary.

[stirling]

On 10/21/2024 at 3:21 PM, Eden said:

Yes but everything is interconnected, interrelated and interdependent..

 

Yes, absolutely, and without a doubt. 

 

On 10/21/2024 at 3:21 PM, Eden said:

... so those who achieve some sort of spiritual awakening through a more meditative path, inevitably will have energetic shifts and transformations of the body, mind-body-consciousness-spirit-chi-nervous system-physiology-brain chemistry-prana-kundalini.. all interrelated.

 

No. Complete realization does not include a transformation of the body... it is MIND that is transformed. What changes is your UNDERSTANDING of what the body/world/self/time/space are.

 

On 10/21/2024 at 3:21 PM, Eden said:

maybe there are different depths to how deep realization can be? or how deep spiritual realization has been integrated?

 

No. The actual understanding is very simple, and never changes, but dualities continue to fall away afterward. 

[Bindi]

On 31/10/2024 at 10:23 PM, GuiKang said:

Nope. Those kundalini thing is post heaven Qi

Kundalini is the higher, more refined, ‘spiritual’ energy that flows through the central channel after the side channels (Ida and Pingala) are purified. This process of purification and the rise of Kundalini is what leads to the realisation of nonduality via the union of Shiva and Shakti or stillness and vitality, which i believe would be equivalent to the union of heaven and earth in daoism. Definitely not equivalent to post heaven Qi which is a mundane energy, kundalini would be referred to as a primordial energy which is (usually) not active when we are born. 

[Cobie]

7 hours ago, dwai said:

It’s a good idea to have empirical evidence to back our theories. Otherwise one can spend a lifetime chasing after chimeras. 

Yes. 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 09:06 AM by Cobie

[Cobie]

5 hours ago, stirling said:

… does not include a transformation of the body... it is MIND that is transformed. …

The actual understanding is very simple …

Yes. 
 

 

Edited Wednesday at 09:06 AM by Cobie

[dwai]

11 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

It is my understanding that jivanmukti happens after all vasanas are dissolved, you’re lowering the bar:

 

"The seeker must destroy the vasanas and the karma associated with them. The mind, clouded by these vasanas, is not fit to realize the non-dual Self. Only when the vasanas are removed, can the Self shine forth in its full glory."

- Vivekachudamani by Adi Shankara

 

- “Liberation is the total destruction of vasanas.” 
- Vivekachudamani by Adi Shankara, verse 317

 

"The mind is a bundle of vasanas. When the vasanas are reduced to zero, the mind ceases to exist, and the Self is realized."

- Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, Talk 528

I’m not chasing chimeras, kundalini is merely showing herself to be a very thorough clearer of all samskaras and all vasanas. 
 

Ah, Manonasha - what he means is that the mind doesn’t control the individual as it becomes clear as being a process that occurs using reflected consciousness. 

 

Vasanas are mental impressions/patterns that arise periodically. There are some which are not considered detrimental - those may or may not be dissolved. For example, Sri Ramkrishna Paramhamsa retained his love for food. These are called “Lesha avidya “, some minimal patterns that allow for the system to function after realization. And there are differences of personality even after realization,  otherwise realization would lead to creating automatons. Dissolving mental patterns doesn’t mean all patterns are dissolved. The fact that personality is retained to a certain degree means some mental patterns remain. Not everything needs to be given up.
 

For example, if someone has a penchant for tidiness, there is nothing inherently negative about it, so why would it need to be dissolved? 
 

[Bindi]

9 hours ago, dwai said:

Ah, Manonasha - what he means is that the mind doesn’t control the individual as it becomes clear as being a process that occurs using reflected consciousness. 

 

Vasanas are mental impressions/patterns that arise periodically. There are some which are not considered detrimental - those may or may not be dissolved. For example, Sri Ramkrishna Paramhamsa retained his love for food. These are called “Lesha avidya “, some minimal patterns that allow for the system to function after realization. And there are differences of personality even after realization,  otherwise realization would lead to creating automatons. Dissolving mental patterns doesn’t mean all patterns are dissolved. The fact that personality is retained to a certain degree means some mental patterns remain. Not everything needs to be given up.
 

For example, if someone has a penchant for tidiness, there is nothing inherently negative about it, so why would it need to be dissolved? 
 

 

While many systems allow for minor residual patterns to remain, a handful, like Krishnamurti, Theravada Buddhism, rigorous Advaita interpretations, and certain yoga philosophies, emphasise total purification as the hallmark of ultimate liberation. 

 

Clearly, we hold differing visions of what liberation entails. For me, the path to complete freedom necessitates the dissolution of all samskaras and vasanas, leaving no residue and no unresolved duality behind.

 

Edited Wednesday at 11:42 PM by Bindi

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

While many systems allow for minor residual patterns to remain, a handful, like Krishnamurti, Theravada Buddhism, rigorous Advaita interpretations, and certain yoga philosophies, emphasise total purification as the hallmark of ultimate liberation. 

 

Clearly, we hold differing visions of what liberation entails. For me, the path to complete freedom necessitates the dissolution of all samskaras and vasanas, leaving no residue and no unresolved duality behind.

 

Good luck 👍🏾

[Sahaja]

On 10/21/2024 at 3:21 PM, Eden said:

Yes but everything is interconnected, interrelated and interdependent... so those who achieve some sort of spiritual awakening through a more meditative path, inevitably will have energetic shifts and transformations of the body, mind-body-consciousness-spirit-chi-nervous system-physiology-brain chemistry-prana-kundalini.. all interrelated.

maybe there are different depths to how deep realization can be? or how deep spiritual realization has been integrated?

 

Yes, my understanding is that all our mind body  layers are interconnected and influence each other in everything we do.  The spiritual paths of addition take you through the various layers with lots of practices, physical, behavioral, energetic, mental, etc. along the way all the mind body’s layers change in a systematic interconnected  fashion, including the physical body.  The spiritual paths of subtraction approach it from the other end, removing/simplifying things often focusing on consciousness and mental processes. However, at some point all the layers change in the paths of subtraction as well. This is because we are whole beings with mind and body connected as a single unit.  you are in all your  mind body layers and are affected by them all ( until you are not). Without the mind body layers being transformed to be able to anchor the changes from the learnings on the path into it  (whether on the path of addition or on the path of subtraction or some combination of the two ) , all one has are ephemeral experiences whose effects will fade. The human mind body complex design provides each of us the opportunity for spiritual growth but for most this requires change at many levels.