Kundalini vs Preheaven Chi

[Bindi]

….

Edited February 9 by Bindi

[Antares]

  On 2/8/2025 at 11:35 PM, Bindi said:

Yoga-Kundalini Upanishad (c. 9th-10th century CE)

I wouldn't trust AI (Agnostic Idiot). Once, out of curiosity, I tried to find some answers in daoist texts. This idiot not only made up the text himself, but then also created another text after I pointed out that there was no such text. It apologized, but then made up a text again. Moreover, I generally do not believe in official dating in history. 99% is forgery. Especially when it comes to British India. As for this excerpt, I found that it actually pertains to the Yoga Pradipika, and as I said, it has a later dating, but again, it shouldn't be trusted. The text could have been written later. For example, I found a claim that the text Goraksasataka was copied in the 17th-18th centuries (the British period) from original texts that are supposedly dated to the 11th-12th centuries. Where are the originals themselves, who has seen and studied them?

 

  Quote

Goraksasataka teaches “the esoteric sarasvaticalana” also known as "the stimulation
of Sarasvati." Arousing “the Kuṇḍalinī, the coiled serpent goddess who lies dormant at the base
of the spine in the unenlightened" is the set task for the practitionerTo accomplish this goal, Goraksasataka suggests specific breathwork rather than use of bandhās/mudrās unique to
the “The Medieval Transformation of Yoga” period.

What is this Medieval Transformation of Yoga” period?

Edited February 9 by Antares

[Bindi]

  On 2/9/2025 at 2:04 AM, Antares said:

I wouldn't trust AI (Agnostic Idiot). Once, out of curiosity, I tried to find some answers in daoist texts. This idiot not only made up the text himself, but then also created another text after I pointed out that there was no such text. It apologized, but then made up a text again. Moreover, I generally do not believe in official dating in history. 99% is forgery. Especially when it comes to British India. As for this excerpt, I found that it actually pertains to the Yoga Pradipika, and as I said, it has a later dating, but again, it shouldn't be trusted. The text could have been written later. For example, I found a claim that the text Goraksasataka was copied in the 17th-18th centuries (the British period) from original texts that are supposedly dated to the 11th-12th centuries. Where are the originals themselves, who has seen and studied them?

 

What is this Medieval Transformation of Yoga” period?

You could look up the references in my post and prove they're wrong instead of dismissing them with a blanket distrust of AI, which disproves nothing. I do highly doubt that the British influenced indian concepts of Kundalini.

 

Edited February 9 by Bindi

[Antares]

  On 2/8/2025 at 11:35 PM, Bindi said:

The Upanishads (c. 1000 BCE – 500 CE)

You could have simply provided quotes about kundalini from this text without referring to AI. But for some reason, you decided to turn to AI. This means that you are not interested in primary sources and you trust questionable sources. But can there be truth in questionable sources?

 

  On 2/9/2025 at 3:25 AM, Bindi said:

I do highly doubt that the British influenced indian concepts of Kundalini.

 

Did you personally see the original texts and you proved their authenticity? I gave an example of how easy it is to manipulate the dates of supposedly authentic texts. There is no need for doubt here, just investigate. Or blindly believe in concepts imposed by others. It's up to you — the red or the blue pill - what is your choice?

[Antares]

  Quote

According to Mahony, they likely are dated between 100 BC and 1100 AD. However, Gavin Flood dates the Yoga Upanishads to the 100 BCE to 300 CE period. According to James Mallinson, some Yoga Upanishads were revised in the eighteenth century to incorporate the Hatha Yoga ideas of the Hindu Natha sub-tradition

 

[Bindi]

  On 2/9/2025 at 10:22 AM, Antares said:

You could have simply provided quotes about kundalini from this text without referring to AI. But for some reason, you decided to turn to AI. This means that you are not interested in primary sources and you trust questionable sources. But can there be truth in questionable sources?

 

 

Did you personally see the original texts and you proved their authenticity? I gave an example of how easy it is to manipulate the dates of supposedly authentic texts. There is no need for doubt here, just investigate. Or blindly believe in concepts imposed by others. It's up to you — the red or the blue pill - what is your choice?

Previously I was speaking from personal experience regarding kundalini and the central channel, and no I’m not particularly interested in the original texts, I’m more interested in finding my own personal path. I used AI because it was quick and easy, reflecting my relative lack of interest in these texts. I’m happy with the AI references, if you’re not that’s up to you. 
 

Edited February 9 by Bindi

[Antares]

  On 2/9/2025 at 11:18 AM, Bindi said:

Previously I was speaking from personal experience regarding kundalini and the central channel

There is an option for how to direct the yuan qi and how to use it. Some schools may utilize the central channel, but from a Daoist perspective, that considered as the wrong path. Old Indian schools and methods were quite similar to the daoist perspective but they were changed afterwards

[S:C]

  On 2/9/2025 at 12:38 PM, Antares said:

utilize the central channel, but from a Daoist perspective, that considered as the wrong path.

please explain?

[Antares]

  On 2/9/2025 at 2:47 PM, S:C said:

please explain?

there are 2 poles of the LDT - yin and yang. how i get it yoga people activate yang pole and send yang qi into central channel. but better to unite yin and yang and utilize it other way

[Bindi]

  On 2/9/2025 at 12:38 PM, Antares said:

There is an option for how to direct the yuan qi and how to use it. Some schools may utilize the central channel, but from a Daoist perspective, that considered as the wrong path. Old Indian schools and methods were quite similar to the daoist perspective but they were changed afterwards

 

  On 2/9/2025 at 4:17 PM, Antares said:

there are 2 poles of the LDT - yin and yang. how i get it yoga people activate yang pole and send yang qi into central channel. but better to unite yin and yang and utilize it other way

I think the Indian model is pretty accurate, overlaying Indian and daoist models I’d say ida and pingala are equivalent to yin and yang though daoists don’t place yin and Yang specifically in the subtle body. To me they are channels that run from the bottom of the body to the top like the Indian system. There doesn’t seem to be an equivalent energy to kundalini in daoism, and from my perspective that’s a shortcoming. Kundalini is not actually activated Yang qi from pingala sent into the central channel, it’s an actual ‘consciousness’ that is actually asleep in the lower part of the body that ideally is awakened when both Ida and Pingala are cleared and flowing. That’s my understanding, what yoga people do I don’t know personally, but I am not drawn to what I consider to be forceful methods, breathing, locks, trying to force energies, so I’m not defending yoga practices.

[blue eyed snake]

  On 2/9/2025 at 10:39 PM, Bindi said:

 

I think the Indian model is pretty accurate, overlaying Indian and daoist models I’d say ida and pingala are equivalent to yin and yang though daoists don’t place yin and Yang specifically in the subtle body. To me they are channels that run from the bottom of the body to the top like the Indian system. There doesn’t seem to be an equivalent energy to kundalini in daoism, and from my perspective that’s a shortcoming. Kundalini is not actually activated Yang qi from pingala sent into the central channel, it’s an actual ‘consciousness’ that is actually asleep in the lower part of the body that ideally is awakened when both Ida and Pingala are cleared and flowing. That’s my understanding, what yoga people do I don’t know personally, but I am not drawn to what I consider to be forceful methods, breathing, locks, trying to force energies, so I’m not defending yoga practices.

 

seeing how you like to compare systems,

maybe you like these sites

 

https://fiveseasonsmedicine.com/kodaishin-meridian-therapy/

 

https://drjakefratkin.com/3-level-najom/part-3-more-eight-extraordinary-channel/

[Lairg]

  On 2/9/2025 at 10:39 PM, Bindi said:

Kundalini is not actually activated Yang qi from pingala sent into the central channel, it’s an actual ‘consciousness’ that is actually asleep in the lower part of the body that ideally is awakened when both Ida and Pingala are cleared and flowing.

 

For what it may be worth:

 

I observe that the cosmic energies in the base of the spine are functionally active in those that have achieved first stage enlightenment and in women that have given birth.

 

Is that how mothers are often more competent than their husbands?   Some women tell me it is quite a job preventing their husbands from doing silly things

 

There are however many external interferences in the base chakra - that may not be eliminated until third stage enlightenment.   At that stage the initiate still looks human but has actually transitioned into a higher kingdom

 

Who can test the above propositions?

 

 

 

 

Edited February 10 by Lairg

[Antares]

  On 2/9/2025 at 10:39 PM, Bindi said:

I think the Indian model is pretty accurate, overlaying Indian and daoist models I’d say ida and pingala are equivalent to yin and yang though daoists don’t place yin and Yang specifically in the subtle body.

It could be prenatal jing (yin and yang) that is stored in the kidneys, with which some yoga practitioners work, calling it kundalini. However, kundalini can also refer to something like spiritual power, so it depends. To work with the latter, you need an authentic teacher; otherwise, it can't be activated. What I mean is that some ignorant people activate the yang of jing by bringing it up the spine, calling it kundalini. Real kundalini activation is quite a rare occurrence, even in India. And I don't think that even authentic kundalini activation produces the same results as Daoist neidan.

[Antares]

Also it could be true yang Qi rising in central channel. It depends what they do. But this approach is very questionable. 

[blue eyed snake]

long post

 

 

  On 2/6/2025 at 9:28 AM, Bindi said:

I understand that kundalini is not part of your belief system, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a fundamental part of how consciousness integrates and transforms—it’s just something you haven’t encountered yet. Maybe take some time to read about kundalini before trying to debate it out of existence. Gopi Krishna’s experience is a good example—he forced the process and paid the consequences, but it was unstoppable. I’ve also found Swamij insightful, as he emphasises the importance of clearing the side channels first. https://swamij.com/kundalini-awakening.htm

 

so have read up on this, it gives a concise description of several possible states the 'system'  can rest in.

here you find the text about kundalini rising to the crown and out 

https://swamij.com/kundalini-awakening-6.htm

 

 

this is what piqued my interest, it says here there are chakras between the third eye and the crown ( excuse my simple language, I am not much of a reader and preferably use the words I am used to)

 

  Quote

Between ajna and sahasrara: From the ajna chakra at the eyebrow center, the journey is up the brahma nadi, an extension of the Sushumna channel. This may be first experienced in the dark field of mind as a black object, lingam, circle, or tunnel entrance. Along the journey to the sahasrara chakra at the crown of the head (also known as the thousand-petalled lotus or brahmarandra), there are other chakras, bindus (points), and levels of consciousness that are encountered and transcended. To go through these levels (called piercing the bindu) can seem like explosions or crashing through walls. If awareness does not stop at one of these points along the way, it comes to the union of the individual and the Absolute.

 

many years ago I had a kundalini experience, without even knowing what it was, once I wrote to a darling bum:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

As I recall it the energy went right up and got stuck somewhere halfway my back, 't was slightly higher then ming men.

 

there it stuck, i became very uncomfortable to put it softly and then anxiety reared its head.Then I began to call for help in my mind.

 

A voice answered and instructed me how to manipulate the energy ( a bit to the right, noo, not like that, softly, do not force thing, yes that's better... like that)  and after following those instructions all of a sudden it went upwards like woosh, went out of the top of my head and it felt like lindenhoney or molasses like stuff slowly dripped down my head until it met my eyebrows.

 

like this

 

 

together with the woosh the realization that ego is just a construct kicked in, hard. Very funny for someone who at the time thought that was all newagey non-sense.

 

that voice ( and others) also calmed me in the hours ( days) after, until i could sustain myself.

 

 

When i woke up the day after this happened i had a small dent in my forehead, tender to the touch. The layer between skullbone and skin ( subcutaneous connective tissue) had disappeared overnight.  strange uh.

weeks, maybe months after I began to look into what this experience had been and came out with kundalini as it fitted in all details. But the dent in my forehead remained a mystery. Another darling bum pointed me to the acupuncture point that is sitting there, 

 

shenting, DU-MAI 24, Courtyard of the Spirit.

 

 

but there my search ended, I did once mention it here on the bums hoping for some pointers but got a reaction like ' oh that's just yuan qi' or something like that so that wasn't helpful. Especially as i have never learned all those chinese terms.

 

but now i got hold of this text linked by Bindi

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Guru chakra: Beyond the first six chakras, between there and the crown chakra, many other chakras, levels, or layers of reality are experienced. For the aspirant who is willing to do so, the guru chakra is used to purify the mind and to bring down spiritual truths. "Gu" means darkness and "ru" means light. Guru is the light that dispels the darkness of ignorance. Guru is not any person, although guru may operate through a person. Guru is actually the higher knowledge itself. Guru chakra is the doorway to that knowledge, to the wisdom and guidance of the teacher within. The sixth chakra, at the eyebrow center, is called ajna chakra, which includes "a" and "jna", which means the center without knowledge or with little knowledge ("a" is without and "jna" is knowledge). Guru chakra is experienced in the forehead, and is also called jnana chakra, or the center with knowledge. The knowledge of ajna is lower knowledge, while the knowledge of jnana is higher knowledge. The yogi invites all of the thoughts and samskaras to arise in the mind field of ajna chakra and offers them into the higher knowledge, the triangular shaped fire of guru or jnana chakra (Ajna and guru chakras are also called drikuti and trikuti respectively). From that process the pathway is cleared, and higher wisdom and teachings come down to the ajna. Eventually, awareness itself travels upward, receding through and beyond, to That which is the final abode, the Absolute, the union of Shiva and Shakti.

 

which tells us there is a chakra between third eye and crown, called guru chakra 

(or jnana or trikuti.)  I had seen very old pictures with ' something' high up on the forehead but now I had a search-term.

Searching came up with several ideas were this point is located but it was all muddy and unclear until I found this and it seems to me that this is a source to be trusted.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

so now I have three points of information, the chinese Shenting (courtyard of the spirit), the guru chakra, aka the center of higher knowledge or, as swami Rama puts it: fire of knowledge.

Plus my own experience and my forehead, through the years the dent has deepened so much that i am sure part of the skullbone has melted. A groove down to the third eye has developed and the third eye itself has dented. Also at the spot of the frontal fontanelle a large but not deep indentation has developed.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So

it did not come 'out of the blue' , i had diligently practiced standing posture, some other practices and meditation. several years, the last years it had added up to a daily meditation of an hour and about same for standing practice. Every day, sometimes more plus regular sessions at the dojo

never done any yoga btw.

 

the ren-du system was open and circulating, the central channel was open so the large circulation also flowing, the other extraordinary channels were open or in the process of opening. The lower tantien was hot and turning.

BTW, teacher told me that apart from the ren-du circulation there is also a "sideways" circulation, ( a bit like how the indian pictures show it ). (He told me that when strange and uncomfortable body things started to happen, he said something like: you're clearing up old emotional stuff and opening these side channels, the discomfort will pass. Much text from my usually taciturn teacher.)

He's a chinese and his teacher was chinese also.

 

 

This simple soul has encountered 4 "sorts" of energy

the stuff you get born with

the light from above, called Grace by Christians and their way to god ( and/or enlightenment/realisation)

the energy from mother earth, rising through your legs and so entering the bodily energy system. I was told that some people feel this as originating in the perineum.

 

and kundalini, the favored way of the culture of india.

In my experience it is embodied and it sits in the sacral bone, there the hot fire started. Although it rose up the spine, it was totally different from the ren-du circulation, that goes through the perineum which also has a function in that circulation. The Ren-Du always went smoothly and 'watery'.

Kundalini was hot as fire, prickly as electricity, quite unbearably really, until it popped out of the top of my head.

 

I would not call one 'system' better than the others,

it's simply different ways.

Edited February 10 by blue eyed snake
added pic

[Bindi]

  On 2/10/2025 at 2:50 PM, Antares said:

It could be prenatal jing (yin and yang) that is stored in the kidneys, with which some yoga practitioners work, calling it kundalini. However, kundalini can also refer to something like spiritual power, so it depends. To work with the latter, you need an authentic teacher; otherwise, it can't be activated. What I mean is that some ignorant people activate the yang of jing by bringing it up the spine, calling it kundalini. Real kundalini activation is quite a rare occurrence, even in India. And I don't think that even authentic kundalini activation produces the same results as Daoist neidan.

What specifically do you envision as the end result of Daoist neidan, versus the end result of kundalini activation? 

 

  On 2/10/2025 at 2:59 PM, Antares said:

Also it could be true yang Qi rising in central channel. It depends what they do. But this approach is very questionable. 

 

[Antares]

  On 2/11/2025 at 6:34 AM, Bindi said:

What specifically do you envision as the end result of Daoist neidan, versus the end result of kundalini activation? 

We need to find a person with awakened kundalini and ask them how they obtain yuan qi, where it is stored, how it is transformed...  there is still much unclear in this concept. The idea that ida and pingala are yin and yang is simply incorrect

[Bindi]

  On 2/11/2025 at 10:23 AM, Antares said:

We need to find a person with awakened kundalini and ask them how they obtain yuan qi, where it is stored, how it is transformed...  there is still much unclear in this concept. The idea that ida and pingala are yin and yang is simply incorrect

In Neidan, Yuan Shen (Original Spirit) is the pure, untainted consciousness that existed before conditioning, before thoughts, emotions, or identification with form. It is beyond duality and is considered to be our true nature.

 

In Shaiva and Kundalini traditions, Shiva is often described as pure, unchanging consciousness, the ultimate reality, beyond all fluctuation. He is the silent witness, the absolute stillness that remains when everything else dissolves.

So there is a strong parallel between Yuan Shen and Shiva as both represent the undifferentiated, eternal self.  
 

I hate to say it but that makes kundalini a very good candidate for yuan qi.

In Neidan, Yuan Qi (Original Qi) is the fundamental, pre-heaven energy that animates life and drives the transformation process. It is the primordial, unconditioned energy that exists before differentiation into Yin and Yang.

This strongly parallels Shakti (Kundalini energy) in the Shaiva tradition. Shakti is the dynamic, active force that awakens and moves toward unity with Shiva, she is beyond Ida and Pingala polarity, and she is the bridge between form and formlessness. 
 

I think the end point is different though, kundalini paths tend to go out from the crown, whereas neidan paths tend towards alignment with the body and this is a huge difference, where one could easily see them as therefore completely different, but I think it’s more bad practice (in kundalini yoga) that is to blame. 

Regarding Yin and Yang as Ida and Pingala, I understand why you might resist this comparison based on traditional frameworks. However, from my own experience, both through dreams and multiple direct visions, I have strong reasons to see Ida as black and Pingala as white. While this may challenge a rigid interpretation of Yin and Yang, it aligns with my understanding of how these energies function in the body.

 

 

Edited February 11 by Bindi

[Antares]

  On 2/11/2025 at 11:57 AM, Bindi said:

So there is a strong parallel between Yuan Shen and Shiva as both represent the undifferentiated, eternal self.  

This is a rather controversial statement. Yuan shen and taiji/wuji are far from being the same. This is a typical example of how mixing concepts not only doesn't help, but also misleads. Why compare these concepts at all?

 

  On 2/11/2025 at 11:57 AM, Bindi said:

I hate to say it but that makes kundalini a very good candidate for yuan qi.

From this perspective, yuan qi is always in abundance and is stored somewhere at the base of the spine? And there is no universal force of yuan qi. Yuan qi is a product that must be generated within the body, and it cannot be said that it is stored at the base... The Daoist concept is simply different. Moreover, to obtain yuan qi, you need to involve yuan shen, which is Shiva, so Shiva must be moving somewhere. In general, I am against mixing concepts

[johndoe2012]

  On 2/11/2025 at 10:23 AM, Antares said:

We need to find a person with awakened kundalini and ask them how they obtain yuan qi, where it is stored, how it is transformed...  there is still much unclear in this concept. The idea that ida and pingala are yin and yang is simply incorrect

 

Kundalini is a energy in the base of the spine, it has nothing to do with yuan qi 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

@blue eyed snake your post is absolutely fascinating! Were there any obvious signs or changes to your body in the days before your kundalini started rising?

 

edit: I’m stupid, you gave a good description already 

Edited February 11 by -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-

[Bindi]

Ok, I’m hearing you @Antares and @johndoe2012 kundalini isn’t yuan qi. Is yuan qi the substance that is brought up from the LDT that is alchemically converted and fills the MDT? 

[Bindi]

Out of interest, does anyone know what this line translates to, it’s from the external yellow court scripture:

 

 三關既通，真炁自升

 

 

Edited February 12 by Bindi

[Lairg]

 

Once the three gates are passed, the true soul will rise.

 

https://translate.google.com/?sl=el&tl=en&text=三關既通，真炁自升&op=translate

 

In the western tradition, once the human controls and refines the physical, emotional and mental processes there is communion with the Christian soul, or HGA.

 

There is an important distinction between the soul body and the operational solar intelligence

 

 

The Christian soul is the same as the Neshama -  the third kabbalistic soul

 

Edited February 12 by Lairg

[Antares]

  On 2/11/2025 at 10:28 PM, Bindi said:

 kundalini isn’t yuan qi. Is yuan qi the substance that is brought up from the LDT that is alchemically converted and fills the MDT? 

this would be more subtle form of qi and i dont think it is even physical. it empowers yuan shen, makes it more yang. yang is light i would say