How language forms our world view

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

So, this is something I have pondered about. I think this is in large part while I struggle to understand the philosophy of the far east: that our languages differs so radically.

 

Here is a list of the world largest families:

World language families

Indo-European. 2.562 billion. 44.78%

Sino-Tibetan. 1.276 billion. 22.28%

Niger-Congo. 358 million. 6.26%

Afro-Asiatic. 340 million. 5.93%

Austronesian. 312 million. 5.45%

Dravidian. 222 million. 3.87%

Altaic. 145 million. 2.53%

Japanese. 123 million. 2.16%
 

In the case of this forum, I assume the overwhelming majority belong to either indo-european or Sino-tibetan. In fact, 66% of the world does. What I want to discuss here, is how this forms our understanding of reality.

 

As the only chinese word I know is Nǐ hǎo (I am not excagerariring, it really is) I will limit myself to talking about some indo european words and its realtion to spirituality. I hope, however, anyone familiar with other languages can share some of their knowledge.

 

So lets look into some indo european concepts:

 

breath and spirit 

All the following word has or had the double meaning of breath and spirit:

- Ånd or varations of it (scandinavia)

- spiritus, mens, animus or anima (latin)

- Pneuma (greek)

- Geist (german)

- spirit or mind (english)

- Espirit (french)

- Atman (sanskrit)

 

Here comes the juiciest part, in my opinion. Atman is a direct cognate to ånd (mentioned above) as well as old english ǽþm and eþian, from where the modern english word breath comes from.

 

Sacrifice

 

«In the creation myth, the first man Manu and his giant twin Yemo are crossing the cosmos, accompanied by the primordial cow. To create the world, Manu sacrifices his brother and, with the help of heavenly deities (the Sky-Father, the Storm-God and the Divine Twins),[43][47] forges both the natural elements and human beings from his remains. Manu thus becomes the first priest after initiating sacrifice as the primordial condition for the world order, and his deceased brother Yemo the first king as social classes emerge from his anatomy (priesthood from his head, the warrior class from his breast and arms, and the commoners from his sexual organs and legs).»

 

So, what we see here is that the world is shaped by a sacrifise. Trough ritual sacrifice to the gods the world is kept in order.

 

Cosmic order and universal reason

Wall of text

Spoiler

Linguistic evidence has led scholars to reconstruct the concept of *h₂értus, denoting 'what is fitting, rightly ordered', and ultimately deriving from the verbal root *h₂er-, 'to fit'. Descendant cognates include Hittite āra('right, proper');^[67] Sanskrit ṛta ('divine/cosmic law, force of truth, or order');^[68][69] Avestanarəta- ('order'); Greek artús ('arrangement'), possibly arete ('excellence') via the root *h₂erh₁ ('please, satisfy');^[70] Latin artus('joint'); Tocharian A ārtt- ('to praise, be pleased with'); Armenian ard ('ornament, shape'); Middle High German art ('innate feature, nature, fashion').^[71]

Interwoven with the root *h₂er- ('to fit') is the verbal root *dʰeh₁-, which means 'to put, lay down, establish', but also 'speak, say; bring back'.^[72][36][71] The Greek thémis and the Sanskrit dhāman both derive from the PIE noun for the 'Law', *dʰeh₁-men-, literally 'that which is established'.^[71] This notion of 'Law' includes an active principle, denoting an activity in obedience to the cosmic order *h₂értus, which in a social context is interpreted as a lawful conduct: in the Greek daughter culture, the titaness Themis personifies the cosmic order and the rules of lawful conduct which derived from it,^[73] and the Vedic code of lawful conduct, the Dharma, can also be traced back to the PIE root *dʰeh₁-.^[74] According to Martin L. West, the root *dʰeh₁- also denotes a divine or cosmic creation, as attested by the Hittite expression nēbis dēgan dāir ("established heaven (and) earth"), the Young Avestanformula kə huvāpå raocåscā dāt təmåscā?("What skilful artificer made the regions of light and dark?"), the name of the Vedic creator god Dhātr, and possibly by the Greek nymph Thetis, presented as a demiurgicalgoddess in Alcman's poetry.^[36]

Another root *yew(e)s- appears to be connected with ritualistic laws, as suggested by the Latin iūs ('law, right, justice, duty'), Avestan yaož-dā- ('make ritually pure'), and Sanskrit śáṃca yóśca ('health and happiness'), with a derived adjective *yusi(iy)os seen in Old Irish uisse ('just right, fitting') and possibly Old Church Slavonic istǔ ('actual, true').^[71]

(An interresting note here is that both the term darma as well as karma is derived from rta. Same concept, in other words. Logos is another famous example).

 

Hospitality and reciprocity

 

In proto indo european the words for to give and take was the same word. Likewise for host and guest. This implies a culture of reciprocity (which we also see in sacrifise mentioned above).

 

In ancient greece as well as norse society it was a crime/taboo to not let a wandering stranger stay the night and feed him. We find refferences to this in havamal as well as other places. In Norway it was literal law until somewhere in the 1800s. Tacitus, in his work Germania, likewise remarks on how the germanics both give and take without any guilt, and how the concept of rent is foreign to them.

 

Relationship between mankind and the gods

The PIE word for god meant celestial. The word for man meant earthly. You see this reflected in latin homo and humus as well as english (t)human.
 

Another distinction is made, as in Homer for instance, between the imortal gods and mortal men. However, trough acts of superhuman courage, some men could ascend, become gods, achieve everlasting glory. This is what happened to Ceasar for instance.

From Havamal (sayings of the high one, aka Odin):

77. Cattle die, | and kinsmen die,
And so one dies one's self;
But a noble name | will never die,
If good renown one gets.

 

78. Cattle die, | and kinsmen die,
And so one dies one's self;
One thing now | that never dies,
The fame of a dead man's deeds.

 

The serpent slaying myth

 

Long story short: cattle is stolen, Trito (the warrior) goes to a cave and fights a serpent (the word for serpent is negation) or some kind of monster (read: aboriginal), slays the serpent and retrive the cattle. Cattle was to them what money is to us, basically.

 

So Trito is the archetypical warrior. It means, as you can probally tell, third, and has been used as ephitets to both Zeus and Odin. A more mystical interpertation: «According to Martin L. West, the Proto-Indo-European name *Trito('Third') may have been a "poetic or hieratic code-name, fully comprehensible only with specialized knowledge".^[33]«

 

Paradise

The PIE imagined the afterlife/paradise as a green field/steppe. Not suprisingly, considering they were steppe people Before this, all has been sourced. From here on tho, this is pure speculation. The word eden (paradise) from the bible is borrowed from sumerian. In sumerian, the very same word means steppe. Any connection, do you think?

 

 

 

 

final remarks

 

This thread was suppoused to be about how languages shapes our world view. However, it turned into a monologue on the proto indo europeans, both because I lovd the topic and because I am a rambler…
 

However 

…

I would highly appreciate if some of you could share some concepts from your own language, that would be difficult for a non native to comprehend!

 

❤️‍🔥

 

[Thrice Daily]

Wow, nice intro. One word that sprang to mind was Water 💦 

 

I understood it was the same as spoken by legit Gypsies as it were in India.

 

this was my very first introduction to something seemingly unconnected being connected many years back… 

 

Wiki says, Romani word, English translation, Etymology. pani, water, Sanskrit pānīya (पानीय), compare Hindi pānī (पानी), Nepali (पानी)

 

What I find interesting is the facial expression ad actual feeling of sound created, superimposed onto situations when water would be life saving, often often the first word spoken between people…

 

particularly travellers, it’s eye opening 👁 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

25 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Wow, nice intro. One word that sprang to mind was Water 💦 

 

I understood it was the same as spoken by legit Gypsies as it were in India.

 

this was my very first introduction to something seemingly unconnected being connected many years back… 

 

Wiki says, Romani word, English translation, Etymology. pani, water, Sanskrit pānīya (पानीय), compare Hindi pānī (पानी), Nepali (पानी)

 

What I find interesting is the facial expression ad actual feeling of sound created, superimposed onto situations when water would be life saving, often often the first word spoken between people…

 

particularly travellers, it’s eye opening 👁 

The various terms for soul in germanic languages like wise come from ocean.

[silent thunder]

How language forms thought and mindscape is a fascinating arena to explore.

A nigh on endless sidepath of limitlessness.  Always another word, always another way to string them together...

 

 

This thought settled on my thought pond one afternoon, unsought and unbidden, but most intriguing in its implications.

 

Humans tend to think in words.  Though the words they think with, were created by others who came before and they learned from... so if you are not thinking without words, or thinking words of your own devising... in essence, you are thinking the recycled thoughts of others.

 

This began an exploration of the etymology of words which became something of a passion for a time.

Now, (i) glaze out for long periods like a gape mouth, not thinking much at all, gratefully.

 

Happy hunting!

[Taomeow]

A propos.  Just came across this:

The countries that got tea via China through the Silk Road (land) referred to it in various forms of the word "cha". On the other hand, the countries that traded with China via sea - through the Min Tan port - called it in different forms of "te".

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

A propos.  Just came across this:

The countries that got tea via China through the Silk Road (land) referred to it in various forms of the word "cha". On the other hand, the countries that traded with China via sea - through the Min Tan port - called it in different forms of "te".

 

The cha route. My favoirite tea is chai tea (no joke, thats what we call it).

this one!

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

On a slightly related related note (drugs and herbs and drinks asscociated with indo europeans):

- coffe addiction

- spread and use of weed

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2096440-founders-of-western-civilisation-were-prehistoric-dope-dealers/
(Credit nungali)
- «the elixir of life»

- warrior drug 

(Haoma, mead of poetry, soma, henbane among others)

In the Rig Veda, Indra is guardian of the weather and victory in battle earning the title sahasra-mushka, 'the one with a thousand testicles' (Rig Veda 6.45.3),

Ref. for violent speed freak : 

Rig Veda (4.42.1-6), Indra ; "Men who ride swiftly, having good horses, call on me when surrounded in battle. I, the bountiful Indra, provoke strife. I whirl up the dust, my strength is overwhelming... . No godlike power can check me - I who am unassailable. When draughts of Soma, when songs have made me frenzied, then both the unbounded regions are filled with fear."
(Again, credit @Nungali)

 

and listen to this, from the eddas and the vedas respectivley:

 

Spoiler

 

"In mythology, the gods gained immortality by drinking Soma and it was the favourite tipple of the great god Indra. They then gave the drink to the archer-god Gandharva for safe-keeping but one day Agni, the fire-god, stole it and gave it to the human race. Not only drunk by priests for its sacred nature it was also credited with uplifting qualities, giving the drinker a boost in energy and alertness. These effects meant that the drink has been considered divine since ancient times; a beverage which brought humans closer to the divine. It was also commonly offered in libations to the gods by worshippers. The most important myth about Soma is about his theft. In it, Soma was originally held captive in a citadel in heaven by the archer Kṛśānu. A falcon stole Soma, successfully escaping Kṛśānu, and delivered Soma to Manu, the first sacrificer (!!!) Additionally, Soma is associated with the moon in the late Rigveda and Middle Vedic period. Sūryā, the daughter of the Sun, is sometimes stated to be the wife of Soma."

"In Norse mythology, the Poetic Mead or Mead of Poetry,[a] also known as Mead of Suttungr,Mead of poetry - Wikipedia is a mythical beverage that whoever "drinks becomes a skald or scholar" able to recite any information and solve any question. This myth was reported by Snorri Sturluson in Skáldskaparmál. The drink is a vivid metaphor for poetic inspiration, often associated with Odin the god of 'possession' via berserker rage or poetic inspiration."

Following the end of the Aesir Vanir wars, all the gods spat in container. The mixing of their fluids likley representing unity, brotherhood and truce. Out of this fluid, they created Kvasir. Being made by a mix of the highest beings in the cosmos, Kvasir was wise beyond belief. There was not a question he couldnt answer. Two dwarfs stole this beverage, before it eventually ended up in the hands of the Jotun Suttingr. Odin discuised himself, tracked down the Jotun, and was allowed tree sips of the beverage. After having taken them, he transformed himself into an eagle, and flew away. On the way back to asgard, the gods had placed containers, in witch Odin spit the mead out. His needs got the better of him however, and some of it ended up leaving the other way, of witch some lucky human got the taste of:

 

 

(Off-topic, I know, but kind of fun)

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

And another one. The words for wheel and horse are cognates in every single indo european language, and there are 450 of them!

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

F it, allow me to share one more. This one kind of blows my mind. Two creation stories, one recorded in India 1200 bc and one in Iceland 1200 ad.

Rigveda 10:129 (trans. Doniger):

There was neither non-existence nor existence then

there was neither the realm of space nor the sky which is beyond...

There was neither death nor immortality then.

There was no distinguishing sign of night nor of day
 

Völuspá(trans. Bellows):

Sea nor cool waves nor sand there were

Earth had not been, nor heaven above,

But a yawning gap, and grass nowhere

 

Listen to it in old norse here, english translation bottom right: 

Edited Tuesday at 04:37 PM by Sir Darius the Clairvoyent

[Thrice Daily]

17 minutes ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

This one kind of blows my mind.

There is a lot to unpack there isn’t the?

[Thrice Daily]

11 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

Here comes the juiciest part, in my opinion. Atman is a direct cognate to ånd (mentioned above) as well as old english ǽþm and eþian, from where the modern english word breath comes from.

That’s cool isn’t it. 
 

Im ancient Egyptian the Ankh symbolises , physical life, eternal life, immortality, death and reincarnation… 

 

The pharaoh to some extent represented Egypt as a whole, so by giving the sign to him, the gods granted life to the entire nation. By extension of the concept of "life", the ankh could signify Air or Water. In artwork, gods hold the ankh up to the nose of the king: offering him the breath of life.f

Edited Tuesday at 05:09 PM by Thrice Daily

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Apperantley some eastern languages has loads of terms for conciousness? Mine have only one.

[Thrice Daily]

Just now, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

Apperantley some eastern languages has loads of terms for conciousness? Mine have only one.

The Chinese have very interesting ideas on their version spirit and loosely speaking their version of the soul. It’s multifaceted and quite interesting. All very well organised as you may imagine. They are funny, they bumped into the yin-Yang though so they should get serious respect IMHO.

[Cobie]

deleted

Edited Tuesday at 08:02 PM by Cobie

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Just now, Cobie said:

 

Yeah well I am Dutch too, and that’s just nonsense. You can Google the synonyms your self, there are loads of them. Have fun. 

Yes, because dutch is what i had in mind when I said «my own language» of «eastern language»

[Thrice Daily]

Slightly off , I visited Croatia last year. It was such a long way to travel from Poland.

 

Reason being we travelled by bus. Well coach, it full full of people from our town here where I currently live. It was quite Beautiful and there were stops on the way that added much splendour to the experience.

 

When we arrived in Croatia I was struck by the fact that I understood some of the language. But not from Italian or even Greek like I might have guessed… 

 

But from Poland  

I was surprised, and fascinated so I sat down to find out what happened. 
 

It turned out the Slavs on their travels got there in 7th Century and stormed the city, they dressed as Roman soldiers and penetrated the gate. Sacking the place… 

 

7th Century was so very busy. It’s fascinated me how Slavic tongue migrated.

 

There is a theory that the proto Slav actually settled in and sprung forth from around the Polish region.

 

I was honoured when I heard that. The reason for the theory is that the Polish have many more of the original sounds, and tongue placements that were dropped or forgotten by their Slavic neighbours… 

 

It doesn’t help me learn the language much, but I do feel proud to consider this my second home ❤️ 🏡 

 

“Jako-Tako” is probably one of my favourite words …

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

1 hour ago, Thrice Daily said:

the sign to him, the gods granted life to the entire nation. By extension of the concept of "life", the ankh could signify Air or Water.

Allow me to take on my tinfoil hat, but does it relate to babtism in anyway?

[Cobie]

@Sir Darius the Clairvoyent sorry I thought it was BES that said that, my mistake.  
 

 

Edited Tuesday at 06:34 PM by Cobie

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

1 minute ago, Thrice Daily said:

7th Century was so very busy. It’s fascinated me how Slavic tongue migrated.

This is some thing I know nothing about. I know a fair bit about the origins of germanics, celts and latins, but zero on Europes largrst etnic group: the slavs. Can you enlighten me, please?

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

2 minutes ago, Cobie said:

@Sir Darius the Clairvoyent sorry I thought it was BES that said that, my mistake.

O mi Iesu, dimitte nobis debita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferni, perduc in caelum omnes animas, praesertim eas, quae misericordiae tuae maxime indigent.

[Thrice Daily]

No waters just a good conduit for energy, look at electricity for instance…. 
 

im sure the geometric structure comes into play too. That is a fascinating subject in its own right and make perhaps make a good thread. 
 

I like how a baptism is done on the crown Chakra. That does make a lot of sense…

 

No the Egyptians had a less gentle reason probably. Keeping it in mind that the nose is where they used to pull the brains out when all was said and done… before the embalming and what not. 
 

Keeping it to language for a minute. I seen the great pyramid and it was almost beyond words, well I was speechless anyway.

 

when I looked at the Spynx, it was like the pyramid situation multiplied by about 100,000 it’s hard to say a number. It felt almost infinitely intense to look at. 
 

Beyond Words. They think it used to be a Lion Now you know? The original Leo… Nice story why too. 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

6 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Keeping it to language for a minute. I seen the great pyramid and it was almost beyond words, well I was speechless anyway.

 

when I looked at the Spynx, it was like the pyramid situation multiplied by about 100,000 it’s hard to say a number. It felt almost infinitely intense to look at. 

I havent had the pleasure to see it my

self, but my god is old Egypt awe inspiring.

[Thrice Daily]

13 minutes ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

This is some thing I know nothing about. I know a fair bit about the origins of germanics, celts and latins, but zero on Europes largrst etnic group: the slavs. Can you enlighten me, please?

It’s hard to know for certain but as far as land locked language goes I find it sort of flimsy. But because these guys have all the sounds of Slav the theory seems to make sense… [I previously thought it came from Russia] 

 

Well the idea is that before Proto Slav there was likely to be much language that was spread out, it kind of retracted into this proto Slav and then spread out again.

 

The idea is a bit like how English has now spread all over the world, imagine if a cataclysm happened and English managed to survive some place and then,, spread back out again.. 

 

in the future if we only had the knowledge of the little place it spread back out from we would consider it Englishes origin, when in fact, English was much much older… 

 

But of course because the Written form of Slav doesn’t go back that far at all , it’s totally possible that it is a much more ancient and wide spread older tongue, that survived, retracted (to Poland ish allegedly) then spread back out again.. 

 

(seems plausible that this is a pattern that has repeated itself through history to at least some degree)

 

I'm not an expert though and I’d love it if someone could come on here and ‘kick me into touch’…

Edited Tuesday at 06:48 PM by Thrice Daily

[Cobie]

deleted

Edited Tuesday at 08:06 PM by Cobie