Taiji Quan for Self Defense

[DynamicEquilibrium]

3 hours ago, doc benway said:

 

I appreciate you sharing your perspective on this and I acknowledge and understand your points.

I'll offer a different perspective.

Taiji as a Daoist concept and description of the balance of opposites is simply that, a description of a principle in operation in our day to day reality.

Taijiquan is an attempt to adapt this principle to practical martial arts applications, and of course there is an additional benefit to health and wellness. It is effective at a practical level and makes perfect sense once we have some instruction and have developed some basic skills. Taijiquan is not taiji theory but a practical training method that takes advantage of the theory. For example, my opponent attacks with force, I yield. My opponent yields and I destroy their base. 

It is not unusual to conflate ourselves as practitioners with conceptual principles and theory.

I see this frequently in discussions of spirituality, particularly in traditions like zen and dzogchen.

Practitioners are people making use of theory and principles in order to optimize outcomes but theory is simply that, a way our thought process labels and categorizes trends and patterns in our realm of experience, nothing more. 

FWIW, I thought that worth sharing.

 

Thank you for offering another perspective, how about Taijiquan being one of the practical methods to return to Taiji by the ways of Quan?

There are sayings like "拳道不二 and  道拳同源  "Boxing and Tao are not two" and "Tao and Boxing have the same origin" something like that.

I know i'm biased since what i'm trying my best to learn and practice is Quan taking advantage of the Taiji theory by embodying it, but of course any different point of view adds to the reconstruction of a wider picture. 

 

 

Edited November 6 by DynamicEquilibrium

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

 

Thank you for offering another perspective, how about Taijiquan being one of the practical methods to return to Taiji by the ways of Quan?

 

I think that is a reasonable objective.

 

3 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

There are sayings like "拳道不二 and  道拳同源  "Boxing and Tao are not two" and "Tao and Boxing have the same origin" something like that.

 

Yes, for me that speaks to the ability to really embody taiji principles in taiji quan.

A worthy goal and definitely achievable with skillful practice. 

 

3 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

I know i'm biased since what i'm trying my best to learn and practice is Quan taking advantage of the Taiji theory by embodying it, but of course any different point of view adds to the reconstruction of a wider picture. 

 

One thing I observed and learned first hand practicing and teaching taijiquan -

The way to discover the essence of taiji in the quan is to learn and train as close to martial application as possible, meaning in terms of stance, body movement, attention, breathing, training with partners, etc...

The art and method are finely tuned to optimize elements that are martially applicable. 

Focusing on the martial expression ingrains habits that help us to find the wave and ride it, if you will.

Practicing with too much of an eye toward theory can actually be counter-productive as the mind may misguide us into emphasizing the wrong things in our training.

Not sure if I'm communicating well but I've seen people too focused on theoretical aspects not penetrate deeply enough into the art to really grasp the essence of taiji it contains, if that makes any sense.

I wish you well on your journey, it's been a wonderful path for me that continues.  

[DynamicEquilibrium]

7 hours ago, doc benway said:

One thing I observed and learned first hand practicing and teaching taijiquan -

The way to discover the essence of taiji in the quan is to learn and train as close to martial application as possible, meaning in terms of stance, body movement, attention, breathing, training with partners, etc...

The art and method are finely tuned to optimize elements that are martially applicable. 

Focusing on the martial expression ingrains habits that help us to find the wave and ride it, if you will.

Practicing with too much of an eye toward theory can actually be counter-productive as the mind may misguide us into emphasizing the wrong things in our training.

Not sure if I'm communicating well but I've seen people too focused on theoretical aspects not penetrate deeply enough into the art to really grasp the essence of taiji it contains, if that makes any sense.

I wish you well on your journey, it's been a wonderful path for me that continues.  

 

Very clear, thank you.

Coming to Taijiquan from other martial arts background, i can say this is a common point to make these arts applicable in real situations.

 

You point to an important and difficult problem, body/mind integration. It's so easy for theoretical concepts to stay stuck somewhere away from the body in the virtual space operated by our minds, even to make a set of 8 or 9 simple principles being clearly expressed by the movements is really not that easy.

Same wishes to you on this infinite path.

 

 

Edited November 7 by DynamicEquilibrium

[Thrice Daily]

Interesting. In the past I’ve thought of eastern practices in terms of differentiation. Buddhism for example being at some point very distinct from Taoism and Confucianism being something different still.

 

I think I’d missed the point , that many Chinese households over the years have raised their families with much more of a blend of these approaches.

 

The moment came for me when I chose self defence over complete pacifism and I veered away from Buddhist literature. It was such a treasure trove of knowledge and I would do well to continue. As with the I-Ching, Confucius commentaries and others etc.

 

With martial arts, I believe application begins in the heart, and it’s a blend of these ideals that make me a good martial artist, I believe. Not only Tao… Do you think this is important too?

 

What do you believe in regards to Ethics… and notably the concept of Justice, when it comes to Taijiquan training and application?

[DynamicEquilibrium]

1 hour ago, Thrice Daily said:

Interesting. In the past I’ve thought of eastern practices in terms of differentiation. Buddhism for example being at some point very distinct from Taoism and Confucianism being something different still.

 

I think I’d missed the point , that many Chinese households over the years have raised their families with much more of a blend of these approaches.

 

The moment came for me when I chose self defence over complete pacifism and I veered away from Buddhist literature. It was such a treasure trove of knowledge and I would do well to continue. As with the I-Ching, Confucius commentaries and others etc.

 

With martial arts, I believe application begins in the heart, and it’s a blend of these ideals that make me a good martial artist, I believe. Not only Tao… Do you think this is important too?

 

What do you believe in regards to Ethics… and notably the concept of Justice, when it comes to Taijiquan training and application?

If we agree about the concept of individuality and that people have an inborn individual nature, then these traditionnal cultural heritages can serve as a common soil to support any unique tree in the vast human forest to reconstruct its own set of values and principles according to its inborn caracteristics, Xing and Ming. 

 

To me its very tricky, because if some natural principles are missed in the edification of individual ethics, it could change into absolute individual morals and rules enforced at the detriment of absolute common principles, so maybe no matter what someone practice, she or he is the one practicing it with her or his own content.

 

[dwai]

On 11/6/2024 at 6:08 AM, DynamicEquilibrium said:

According to the Taiji theory logic, "taijiquan for self-defense" makes no sense because where there is really a Taiji there are no opponents, if there is an opponent that means Taiji already differentiated into Yin and Yang and for some reasons one attacks the other, but yes martial arts can teach how to recognize and avoid dangerous situations and how to improve our self-control abilities to make better decisions in the struggle to maintain this dynamic state of balance, if that's what we are looking for of course. 

 

In real life, yin and yang are usually not in equilibrium. So, taijiquan gives us a practical tool to practice bringing them into balance internally and externally. Taijiquan practice does several things—when we do solo practice, it works mainly on the internal aspects of balance and harmony. When we do partner drills, it simulates situations where we can harmonize externally. It teaches us not to react blindly and how to neutralize/harmonize disruptive external forces with minimal effort. 

[Samoobramba]

The Yin and Yang principle is only 1 principle of Taiji Quan. There are many principles. In past they tried to link these principles to the Daoist philosophy, however this is not useful. Many things can be linked to the 5 elements, 8 triagrams and so on, but in practice is another story. Many people tried to make Taiji Quan a philosophy and are making excuses. BS. Taiji Quan is a martial art and if it don't work it is not a real Taiji Quan.

Edited November 7 by Samoobramba

[Samoobramba]

Anyone knows Sam Kakina? From who learned? Maybe from Tung Hu Ling?
As I understand people called him method "Outlaw Tai Chi". However it was known as Combat Tai Chi.

[DynamicEquilibrium]

1 hour ago, Samoobramba said:

The Yin and Yang principle is only 1 principle of Taiji Quan. There are many principles. In past they tried to link these principles to the Daoist philosophy, however this is not useful. Many things can be linked to the 5 elements, 8 triagrams and so on, but in practice is another story. Many people tried to make Taiji Quan a philosophy and are making excuses. BS. Taiji Quan is a martial art and if it don't work it is not a real Taiji Quan.

If efficiency in real fight situations isn't the purpose of one's practice, it won't work for it that's for sure. 

Another purpose doesn't makes it less real, an excuse or BS, but you are right, it's easy to believe doing one thing when actually doing another, what is BS IMO is when Taiijquan is sold as an effective martial arts whitout even just light free sparring included in the training regimen.

[Samoobramba]

Agree.

[Thrice Daily]

So with Taijiquan would you say it’s useful to look in terms of sequential training when training students for martial abilities… ? 

 

Do you place emphasis on different things early on, footwork, power, or would this vary to greatly between teachers and students to say?
 

What kind of drills do you tend to focus more on early on, then with intermediate and advanced, how does the focus tend to shift over time?

 

I had some great interaction with a Chen style teacher for a little while, he was very active at the time training with higher level people within the organisation. He had just had a kid a was travelling less, 

The training with him was memorable. We would take one movement and it would be enough to work on that, there was a great amount of perspectives just with one tiny part of the form. I’m guessing this is a great way to teach at any level. 
 

I’d love to hear other ideas and approaches to what training sessions might look like 👍 

[Samoobramba]

The trainign should start in stillness. Then you have to add the duality (Yin and Yang).

Next stage are the movements. A good example how to progress are the 13 energies (8 hands energies and 5 steps).

When you master these solo practice you have to began practice with the partner. You have to follow all the Taijiquan principles. Probably it seems too easy so many people can't get it.

At the end, when all skills are developed the progression is made by adding the sparring and the conditioning.

[Thrice Daily]

Cool , would it be something like this for the 8 energies?

 

 

And this for 5 steps?

 

 

I’m thinking these must be standardised these 8 and 5 is that correct?

 

im sure lots of variations are taught but can’t deviate to far from the basic framework and Chinese words, eg Peng…

 

Is that correct?

[ChiDragon]

A word about the character 拳, 👊 fist.

When it was compounds with 太极拳, Taijiquan。It doesn't mean Taiji boxing. Taiji may do a straight punch but never a hook punch like real boxing does.   It should be understood as Taiji method, style or form.

 

五步拳 is the Five step method, style or form.

 

In the other hand, the Japanese like to use 道 for method, style, or form. For example, Judo(柔道)，Aikido(合气道).

Bruce Lee's style Jeet Kune Do(截拳道, Jié quán dào).

 

PS The initial name was Taiji Shen Gong, 太極神功, for Taijiquan.

Edited November 7 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

6 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Do you place emphasis on different things early on, footwork

 

Here is a pearl: When you are watching your teacher demonstrate a new technique, focus on their footwork first. People focus too much on the hands and eyes and breathing… you must get the footwork first, then everything else comes much more readily. Feet, then waist, then upper. Everything in taiji is rooted in the feet, transfers through the waist and expresses in the extremities and torso.

Edited November 8 by doc benway

[ChiDragon]

15 hours ago, doc benway said:

Everything in taiji is rooted in the feet,

Yes, be sure to maintain a small distance between the heels at the bow stand. If the heels are too close together, then, you are off balance.

[Samoobramba]

If anybody knows realy Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan evolution would knot that he developed his Taijiquan to be close as possible to the Taijiquan classics. Chen style is not the pure Taijiquan but is mixed with Pao Chui (Shaolin).

[doc benway]

22 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

I’m thinking these must be standardised these 8 and 5 is that correct?

 

The 8 are correct: peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou, and kao. The 5… yes and no.

While the footwork demonstrated in the video is legit and effective in taiji and other martial arts, I think the “5 steps” or 5 directions in taiji generally refers to:  move forward, move back, turn left, turn right, and central equilibrium.

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Samoobramba said:

If anybody knows realy Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan evolution would knot that he developed his Taijiquan to be close as possible to the Taijiquan classics. Chen style is not the pure Taijiquan but is mixed with Pao Chui (Shaolin).

FYI From his autobiography, Cheng Man Ching learned from a Yang Taiji master. It was because he cured the illness of his master's mother. Therefore, the master taught him the Yang Style Taiji. However, after he learned the principles of Taiji, then he developed his own style and put it under his name.

IMO, I don't think the Chen style Taiji had any outside influence. It is a sole Chen Style family Taiji. The practice involves Fali(發力) at the same time that none of the other styles do.

[Thrice Daily]

19 hours ago, doc benway said:

 

Here is a pearl: When you are watching your teacher demonstrate a new technique, focus on their footwork first. People focus too much on the hands and eyes and breathing… you must get the footwork first, then everything else comes much more readily. Feet, then waist, then upper. Everything in taiji is rooted in the feet, transfers through the waist and expresses in the extremities and torso.

I always laboured under the assumption that Chen Style Tau Chi was the most martial of all the family styles. And the original precursor… 

 

The footwork, I remember being mystified watching my king Fu teacher for the first time properly demonstrating Chi Sau type close sparing, the footwork was forever changing yet minimal and relaxed. 
 

Back then it was a complete enigma, you know. I learned the stepping and practiced practiced practiced. Now my body learned this enigma is no enigma at all. It is the consciousness of movement that wakes up in the system given enough to time in practice. 
 

Always more to learn though, so much more…

[ChiDragon]

On 11/7/2024 at 1:11 PM, Thrice Daily said:

I’m thinking these must be standardised these 8 and 5 is that correct?

These two practices are high level of practice. The prerequisite for the 八 勁, the eight explosive forces, is to practice the basic movement of any style of Taiji to develop the jing(勁) in the body. 八 勁 (the eight explosive forces) cannot be performed without doing Taiji practice properly(with proper breathing) for a long period like three years and up. 

Same with the five-step form. It requires strong legs to be standing on one foot for body stability. It doesn't have to practice Taiji, practice Zhan Zhuang will do and help to make the legs stronger.

[doc benway]

55 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Always more to learn though, so much more…

 

And to unlearn …

 

[Cobie]

.

Edited Saturday at 11:39 AM by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

7 minutes ago, doc benway said:

 

And to unlearn …

 

Most people learning is easier to unlearn their mistakes

Edited Friday at 11:02 PM by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

八 勁, the eight explosive forces

It should be understood as the eight methods of Fajing(發勁).