Taiji Quan for Self Defense

[doc benway]

30 minutes ago, Cobie said:

I don’t know anything about Taiji, so intend to stay out of the thread. But this post I feel competent to reply! 
Learning always came very easily to me. Unlearning however has been a lifelong struggle, and is still ongoing. 

Also the unlearning I did manage, taught me so much more useful things than any learning ever did.

 

 

 

It seems to me learning is related to knowledge and unlearning to wisdom.

I think both are needed in turn to develop skill in taijiquan.

[Master Logray]

On 9/11/2024 at 3:21 AM, Samoobramba said:

If anybody knows realy Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan evolution would knot that he developed his Taijiquan to be close as possible to the Taijiquan classics. Chen style is not the pure Taijiquan but is mixed with Pao Chui (Shaolin).

 

I always think Chen Taichi is not Taichi, even though it is the father of Taichi.

 

 

On 7/11/2024 at 9:37 AM, doc benway said:

One thing I observed and learned first hand practicing and teaching taijiquan -

The way to discover the essence of taiji in the quan is to learn and train as close to martial application as possible, meaning in terms of stance, body movement, attention, breathing, training with partners, etc...

 

 

Not many people are doing that.   It is why Taichi is dying as a martial arts system. 

Edited Monday at 12:54 AM by Master Logray

[doc benway]

8 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Not many people are doing that.   It is why Taichi is dying as a martial arts system. 

 

I wonder how many competent and skillful players and teachers breathe today as compared to centuries past? In the modern age, traditional martial arts skill is a bit less valuable in society and so it’s no surprise folks aren’t as committed to the intensity and duration of training needed to really excel; but the access and awareness are so much greater and there are good teachers out there around the globe nowadays.

[Thrice Daily]

Do you think all of this will come full circle? And once again people will develop an interest in these arts?

 

Also the deeper truths and consistencies in these approaches, will they continue to be studied and integrated finally into modern science? I.E. the chi system, the human electrical system and brains abilities to interface with it.

 

Do you think Taiji and Taoist truths will eventually be understood scientific facts and will always have resurgences and developments in the future?

[Master Logray]

20 hours ago, doc benway said:

 

I wonder how many competent and skillful players and teachers breathe today as compared to centuries past? In the modern age, traditional martial arts skill is a bit less valuable in society and so it’s no surprise folks aren’t as committed to the intensity and duration of training needed to really excel; but the access and awareness are so much greater and there are good teachers out there around the globe nowadays.

 

 

There are still people who train very hard.  But the training is in wrong direction.  They train hard for performance, competition, medals.   No one train in fighting.   Martial training needs actual experience, need to face fear, need to stand pain, need to respond in split second, need to see blood...

 

Nowadays even the teacher themselves never fight (may be in their early days).  There are many legitimate reasons, but the result is Taichi is no longer a fighting skill.   China's videos often show Taichi "masters" totally at a lost on stage, they don't know what to do and are knocked down in seconds.  You see there are people who practise Taichi for decades, can they fight a teenager who has no training?    Do students practise flipping, rolling on mat?   Push hand is uncommon, loose hands (freer fight between students) is almost non-existence.   The long form of 100+ moves is reduced to 48, 24, 12 or even 4 moves.  

 

If everyone is happy using Taichi boxing for something else, so be it.  But there are better systems around. 

 

 

 

[Gerard]

On 9/11/2024 at 7:24 PM, Master Logray said:

 

I always think Chen Taichi is not Taichi, even though it is the father to Taichi.

 

 

 

Not many people are doing that.   It is why Taichi is dying as a martial arts system. 

 

IMO dead completely as such.  
 

 

 

According to the historical writings, after retiring from his military post to his native village-- the Chen village of Henan province-- Gen. Wangting Chen （陈王廷1597-1664) integrated the principles of martial arts and his own battlefield experiences with the Yin & Yang and Five Elements theories.  This created the first modern form of Taijiquan– the Chen style Taijiquan (陈式太极拳).   Since its emphasis originally was on martial applications, the movements in the first Chen style Taijiquan are alternatively slow, quick and explosive motions.  Every move is performed with reference to battle. 

 

Source:

 

https://www.utc.edu/arts-and-sciences/social-cultural-and-justice-studies/anthropology/wheelchair-tai-chi-chuan-program/story
 

I'd love to see anyone today practicing the way they did back then. 

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

I’d like to see that too. I’m currently looking into some older styles , older than Tai-Chi and designed by military seniors, each move taken from battle experience to be practiced by military, for health and military abilities. 

 

You might want to check out the thread here;

I’ve just put a post on that gets into this and focuses on the Song Dynasty, so 9th to 13th century or so I think.

 

I'm sure if you are a lifelong student to your training, you can still find plenty to train in that is perfect for martial application…

 

I think the biggest hurdle in training though which is most often overlooked in softer arts in real pressure testing…

 

Its all very well hitting the air, but to develop we really should be doing higher impact training and really testing strength and power in the movements and their abilities to deliver impactful blows (at least)

 

I know striking is the more crude element but it still should be developed. Best imho is to take up some western boxing or kickboxing where you are regularly hitting a bag, then train your other arts suffusing them with your boxing sessions however you can, from footwork through to vectors of power expressed and specific strikes. I know it’s only the striking portion, but it’s a realistic start… 

[Gerard]

It isn't worth it. Even a supposed Ba Gua fighter has a chance against a MMA fighter as shown in this video:

 

 

The MMA guy was gentle IMO. 
 

Imagine a Chen stylist. He probably would have been KO instantly. 
 

And any of those guys against a formidable opponent like Mike Tyson would have been severely injured with a high chance of dying on the ring. 
 

 

 

[Gerard]

You want to learn an effective MA?

 

Let me vouch for Muay Thai:

 

 

Grab a punching bag, a pair of gloves and let's get started. You'll need sparring too as a means of using the art for practical purposes.

 

Leave the wonderful Chinese internal arts for inner cultivation, fitness and   health reasons.
 

Combining an external with an internal art can be very tricky. 
 

 

 

[Master Logray]

2 hours ago, Gerard said:

Leave the wonderful Chinese internal arts for inner cultivation, fitness and   health reasons.
 

Combining an external with an internal art can be very tricky. 
 

 

 

 

Recently I come across an old age centre which offers courses for old people.   Not Taichi, not Qigong, but Wing Chun.   Poor Wing Chun.

 

[Gerard]

Indeed poor WC, but legit stuff is out there:

 

 

Based in Canada.

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

It’s all legit if used in the right place at the right time. Martial Arts are not Sports though. 
MMA now is so superbly technical , it’s like safe cracking or lock picking.

Without that level of knowledge and experience the fight is likely lost as soon as it goes to the floor… 

 

I don’t do martial arts to roll on the floor, but there is doubt that’s how winning is done, if winning is what you’re after. Go for it I’d say.