Lets take a for granted that god created the world

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Just as an thought experiment. 
 

One late october night under the influence of a funny mushroom, my friend told me about his conviction of the excistence of God. I very much agree, but that is beyond the point. I then asked him: why did god create us.

 

He went in to deep thought. After a while he said everyone want someone to take care of, to be responsible for. Beautifull, isnt?

 

My suggestion was that maybe god is playing music. Creativity is… well, it is that whitch creates. And it is great fun.

 

Then we have this point of view from Alan Watts:

 

So, dear bums, magicians and beautifull apes, why are we here?

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

This is a fun one:

 

6.2.3 ||

3. That Existence decided: ‘I shall be many. I shall be born.’ He then created fire. That fire also decided: ‘I shall be many. I shall be born.’ Then fire produced water. That is why whenever or wherever a person mourns or perspires, he produces water.

https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/chandogya-upanishad-english/d/doc239262.html
 

In norse tradition, humans are sort of the middle point between the gods and the forces of chaos, their job being to fight against chaos, If you will allow a very speculative interpertation.

 

@Nungali what went down in zoroastrian myth?

 

Also… and this is yet another subject I know nothing about, but in enuma elish, man is created to be… slaves, basically? Part of me feels this is social engineering on another level, but no comment.

 

The biblical version is kind of like prometheus but in reverse, is it not?

Edited October 24 by Sir Darius the Clairvoyent

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Spoiler

414a] and issues from it unspoiled we must establish as ruler over our city and its guardian, and bestow rewards upon him in life, and in death the allotment of the supreme honors of burial-rites and other memorials. But the man of the other type we must reject. Such,” said I, “appears to me, Glaucon, the general notion of our selection and appointment of rulers and guardians as sketched in outline, but not drawn out in detail.” “I too,” he said, “think much the same.” “Then would it not truly [414b] be most proper to designate these as guardians in the full sense of the word, watchers against foemen without and friends within, so that the latter shall not wish and the former shall not be able to work harm, but to name those youths whom we were calling guardians just now, helpers and aids for the decrees of the rulers?” “I think so,” he replied.

“How, then,” said I, “might we contrive¹ one of those opportune falsehoods² of which we were just now³speaking, [414c] so as by one noble lie to persuade if possible the rulers themselves, but failing that the rest of the city?” “What kind of a fiction do you mean?” said he. “Nothing unprecedented,” said I, “but a sort of Phoenician tale,⁴ something that has happened ere now in many parts of the world, as the poets aver and have induced men to believe, but that has not happened and perhaps would not be likely to happen in our day⁵ and demanding no little persuasion to make it believable.” “You act like one who shrinks from telling his thought,” he said. “You will think that I have right good reason⁶ for shrinking when I have told,” I said. [414d] “Say on,” said he, “and don't be afraid.” “Very well, I will. And yet I hardly know how to find the audacity or the words to speak and undertake to persuade first the rulers themselves and the soldiers and then the rest of the city, that in good sooth⁷ all our training and educating of them were things that they imagined and that happened to them as it were in a dream; but that in reality at that time they were down within the earth being molded and fostered themselves while [414e] their weapons and the rest of their equipment were being fashioned. And when they were quite finished the earth as being their mother⁸delivered them, and now as if their land were their mother and their nurse they ought to take thought for her and defend her against any attack and regard the other citizens as their brothers and children of the self-same earth.” “It is not for nothing,⁹” he said, “that you were so bashful about coming out with your lie.” “It was quite natural that I should be,”

 

 

 

[Nungali]

On 25/10/2024 at 7:07 AM, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

This is a fun one:

 

6.2.3 ||

3. That Existence decided: ‘I shall be many. I shall be born.’ He then created fire. That fire also decided: ‘I shall be many. I shall be born.’ Then fire produced water. That is why whenever or wherever a person mourns or perspires, he produces water.

https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/chandogya-upanishad-english/d/doc239262.html
 

In norse tradition, humans are sort of the middle point between the gods and the forces of chaos, their job being to fight against chaos, If you will allow a very speculative interpertation.

 

@Nungali what went down in zoroastrian myth?

 

In regard to what ?   The fight against Chaos ?   I am not that good on Zoroastrian myth ; try the Shamaneh , its immense .  I'm better on the 'philosophy' side of it  . Its OUR job to fight against chaos . By uniting the parts of psyche (to get balance and strength to be able to do this ) , practising good words, thoughts and deeds, by doing the practices which cultivate those things  (good mind - spenta mainyu)  and avoiding things that 'cultivate'  bad things  (bad mind ;  angra mainyu )  .

 

When this happens it brings  'beneficent swelling '  of mankind  - 'Sayoshant '  ( from the PIE root *ḱewh₁- 'to swell'. The Avestan sūra- 'strong' and yawaēsū- 'ever-thriving' derive from this root.).

 

Now some might refer to 'The Sayoshant ' as a future coming 'saviour'  / personage  ( like Jesus' second coming to renew the world  { and some say Sayoshant is the origin of this archetype }  )  yet in the Gathas it refers to three levels or usages of the word : 

 

-  Gathas (older);  As a common noun to refer to the prophet's own mission and to his community of followers, who "bring benefit" to humanity.

 

- The common noun also appears in the Younger Avesta (e.g. Yasna 61.5), where it generically denotes religious leaders, including Zoroaster (e.g. Yasna 46.3) Another common noun airyaman "member of community" is an epithet of these saoshyants.

 

  ^- These saviours are those who follow Ahura Mazda's teaching "with acts inspired by asha" (Yasna 48.12).

 

It first appears as a proper name in the Younger Avesta^. The role of the Saoshyant, or Astvat-ereta, as a future saviour of the world is briefly described in Yasht 19.88-96, where it is stated that he will achieve the Frashokereti, that he will make the world perfect and immortal, and evil  will disappear. Then this version goes more into 'personification'  , 'pontifications' (  )  and ends up in mythology .

But I contend  the more valid meaning is the earliest form .   Its up to us  .... of course .  However it does predict eventual Frashokereti ;

 

https://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/death/index.htm#eschatology

 

On 25/10/2024 at 7:07 AM, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

 

Also… and this is yet another subject I know nothing about, but in enuma elish, man is created to be… slaves, basically? Part of me feels this is social engineering on another level, but no comment.

 

yes, there is the other side  and it made a big difference (on many levels )  , it was common, one way or another ; we where annoying to the Gods and they often tried to wipe us out .... too noisy !  Too this too that , did this wrong , did that wrong ... poor humans under the sight of the Gods .  However in Zoroastrianism , it was the opposite  the Gods created us to .... and here is your 'reason' you asked about above  .... to have a good life , not to be slaves   ... to live and enjoy . ... 'Ushta ' !

 

" The goal in life is to achieve ushta: abiding spiritual resplendence, happiness, and peace - an individual at peace with oneself and humanity at peace with itself. Spiritual resplendence gives a person the light of wisdom, a sense of spiritual confidence that the path a person has chosen will lead to a meaningful and fulfilling life. It is inner enlightenment of the spiritual self and a beacon that lights the path ahead. "

 

https://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/overview/index.htm#ushta

 

" Metaphorically speaking, if individuals in their spiritual quest journey to a mountain-top seeking quietude and the space for the inner voice to be heard; the space for introspection, reflection and meditation while occasionally reciting a mantra when facing a source of light, the spiritual resplendence of ushta will be found on their return. "

 

"  ...    Super-consciousnes of the highest order is obtainable by known methods.

Therefore, by employing the quintessence of known methods we cause the world to progress.

...

The essential acts are retirement and concentration ...  "

 

 

  However , that does not make us immune to 'our own punishments '    ( I hear the UN has just announced we missed our deadline of 'too late to act now ' regarding climate change )  ....  Zoroastrians  they where the first to pass legislation against  polluting the earth water and air .    They understood 'karma' .

 

No doubt these  attitude helped engender their concepts of egalitarianism, sexual equality , freedom of religion , etc   (for their time ... we can see a 'remnant ' of these 'religio-ethnographic traits' in the basic tenets of the Baha'i Faith , which originated out of the Zoroastrian / Islamic / Hermetic  sects of the Iranians .

 

 

On 25/10/2024 at 7:07 AM, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

 

The biblical version is kind of like prometheus but in reverse, is it not?

 

Eh ?

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

Eh ?

Very good post my Friend. On this part, I was just thinking about how the light bringer, in a very literal sense, was regarded in comparison to another light bringer, in a more metaphorical sense.

 

you know, the fruit and the serpent and the fire and all that.