Two of the types of Qi in Tai chi

[dwai]

 

[Cobie]

(I didn’t watch the video) That’s what I think too, qi is on two levels, one physical and one spiritual.

 

 

Edited October 24 by Cobie

[Cobie]

Imo it’s not unusual for a Classical Chinese character to work on both levels.

 

E.g. re 天地 

On 27/08/2024 at 2:03 PM, Cobie said:

… 天地 - nature, the physical world. 天地 has 物 wu4 

物 wu4 - things in ‘nature’ (including the human bodies). Floods, droughts very scary [very powerful etc.].

These cannot be controlled.

 

On 27/08/2024 at 3:35 PM, Taoist Texts said:

of course they can be. because 天地 are the spiritual world, not physical, and when the spirits see your De they approve of it and make the 天地 peaceful

 

On 28/08/2024 at 1:38 AM, Cobie said:

Imo both, an overlay of the uncontrollable physical with a controllable (rituals/virtue) metaphysical. 

 

 

Edited October 24 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

50 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

I know what he is telling everybody. One who knows physics and observant should be able to rebut his notion about chi. To prevent any conflicts that might offend some of the Chi lovers, I will reserve my comments. Of course, you are welcome to inquire for my point of view.

Peace!

Edited October 24 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I know what he is telling everybody. One who knows physics and observant should be able to rebut his notion about chi. To prevent any conflicts that might offend some of the Chi lovers, I will reserve my comments.

Peace!

You should have reserved your comments before making it 🧐

[Cobie]

Imo:

the physical qi is part of the visible Tao (DDJ Ch 1); whilst the spiritual qi is part of the invisible Tao.

 

 

Edited October 24 by Cobie

[dwai]

Now, everyone except @ChiDragon, please feel free to comment. Let’s have a discussion  

 

Have you experienced this? Are you able to manifest the Tiqi and Lingqi described in the video? I have and I can. It’s especially amazing when you experience the external qi in action. 

[Cobie]

It’s been a lifelong struggle to discern what’s on the outside and what’s on the inside regards my experiencing of qi (first experience at about 4 years old). (Sorry, still not watched the video)

 

 

Edited October 24 by Cobie

[Nungali]

Dont you mean  

 

two  OF the types of Qi ?

 

 

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, Cobie said:

It’s been a lifelong struggle to discern what’s on the outside and what’s on the inside regards my experiencing of qi (first experience at about 4 years old). (Sorry, still not watched the video)

I’m sure it is hard to discern. But if you watch the video it might actually help you  

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Dont you mean  

 

two  OF the types of Qi ?

 

 

Yes of course  

[Nungali]

IMO  -  thankyou .

[dwai]

18 minutes ago, Nungali said:

IMO  -  thankyou .

You are the most of the type of welcome! 😝

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Have you experienced this? Are you able to manifest the Tiqi and Lingqi described in the video? I have and I can. It’s especially amazing when you experience the external qi in action. 

 

yes, never had it explained like this but is nice

I do have the awareness, but not the ability to manifest it anymore.

 

being the subject of the extracorporeal chi of a master can be quite baffling

[dwai]

11 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

being the subject of the extracorporeal chi of a master can be quite baffling

In our system we work on two “external” qi aspects. One is our personal shield, which extends a few inches to a few feet around our body. The other my teacher calls the “surface” (which permeates throughout all the space). One very interesting exercise we do is holding a thin tissue between two practice partners. One is just holding on, and the other starts to pull the surface from behind the static partner towards themselves. The results are very interesting  

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

13 minutes ago, dwai said:

One is our personal shield, which extends a few inches to a few feet around our body. The other my teacher calls the “surface” (which permeates throughout all the space). 

Would this be wei qi?

[Master Logray]

Glimpse the video, the pushing in the video is not Chi.   And the teacher seems to say the same.   It is a trick using the centre of gravity.   Although it is a trick, the training is probably more demanding than most Qigong.

[dwai]

45 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Would this be wei qi?

It is, but with tai chi practice the field gets stronger and larger, imho 

[Taomeow]

I have only watched it diagonally and recognized some of the ideas as legit, but I was surprised that throughout the presentation talking about taiji, no taiji distance with peng-lu-ji-an dynamics has been demonstrated, everything is happening at the kung fu/hard MA distance.  At 9:40 he says, "original Yang taiji understanding of peng-lu-ji-an involves manipulation of qi that is outside your body." (Could have thrown in  cai-lie-zhou-kao too while at it -- why mention peng-lu-ji-an in passing and never show what they are?..)  A more meaningful way to put it -- and not in the "original Yang taiji" but in any of the five major styles -- is that it involves manipulation of the qi of your opponent -- or his li if he ain't big on cultivated qi.  It's not some mysterious qi outside your body you are manipulating in a tuishou practice/fight situation.  The borrowing from the opponent is the cornerstone of this art, but he keeps talking about manipulating his own qi.  Do you agree with his take?

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

I have only watched it diagonally and recognized some of the ideas as legit, but I was surprised that throughout the presentation talking about taiji, no taiji distance with peng-lu-ji-an dynamics has been demonstrated, everything is happening at the kung fu/hard MA distance.  At 9:40 he says, "original Yang taiji understanding of peng-lu-ji-an involves manipulation of qi that is outside your body." (Could have thrown in  cai-lie-zhou-kao too while at it -- why mention peng-lu-ji-an in passing and never show what they are?..)  A more meaningful way to put it -- and not in the "original Yang taiji" but in any of the five major styles -- is that it involves manipulation of the qi of your opponent -- or his li if he ain't big on cultivated qi.  It's not some mysterious qi outside your body you are manipulating in a tuishou practice/fight situation.  The borrowing from the opponent is the cornerstone of this art, but he keeps talking about manipulating his own qi.  Do you agree with his take?

I think he’s showing concepts, so focusing on a specific aspect he wants to demonstrate. 
 

In our system we train all aspects, from close-range tuishou to the more esoteric. My teacher wants us to focus on the esoteric stuff, and the rationale is that the “normal” stuff ends up becoming more physical and we’ve already spent years on it. But for beginners I would not teach the more advanced concepts before they’ve spent sufficient time working on the foundational skills. 

[Taomeow]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

I think he’s showing concepts, so focusing on a specific aspect he wants to demonstrate. 
 

In our system we train all aspects, from close-range tuishou to the more esoteric. My teacher wants us to focus on the esoteric stuff, and the rationale is that the “normal” stuff ends up becoming more physical and we’ve already spent years on it. But for beginners I would not teach the more advanced concepts before they’ve spent sufficient time working on the foundational skills. 

 

That's a good approach.  I hold in rather low regard teachers who start talking taiji esoterica with beginners before they get the basics down pat.   (And "the basics" are huge -- a long learning curve!) 

When the student in the video tells the master that "it's like coming up against a wall" that reminds me of some "high end" push-hands encounters -- a wall, a tank, you name it, an unstoppable force advancing on you.   Though I must confess the opposite impressed me more when I had the good fortune to deal with it -- a cloud, a swath of fog, a nothing...  nothing to hang your hat on, I mean your skill.  I would like to see how a wall or a tank would fare advancing on a cloud.      

[dwai]

35 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

That's a good approach.  I hold in rather low regard teachers who start talking taiji esoterica with beginners before they get the basics down pat.   (And "the basics" are huge -- a long learning curve!) 

agreed 100%

35 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

When the student in the video tells the master that "it's like coming up against a wall" that reminds me of some "high end" push-hands encounters -- a wall, a tank, you name it, an unstoppable force advancing on you.   Though I must confess the opposite impressed me more when I had the good fortune to deal with it -- a cloud, a swath of fog, a nothing...  nothing to hang your hat on, I mean your skill.  I would like to see how a wall or a tank would fare advancing on a cloud.      

It’s interesting that you made the point. After I started with my teacher, I happened to get a chance to touch hands with his then second most senior student. It felt like a tank was coming at me, though he wasn’t really “turning it on”. It was intimidating. 

My teacher on the other hand felt like a cloud (still does), and he can “disappear” at will and “reappear” suddenly, by which point it is too late to do anything.  

 

A few years later, I touched hands with that person again (I didn’t get a chance to meet him in between). I felt like he was a child, and I could move him around at will. I figured  my skills had improved (I’d been working out with my teacher diligently for a few years, plus my own daily practice of 2-3 hrs).

[Sahaja]

On 10/25/2024 at 4:08 PM, dwai said:

agreed 100%

It’s interesting that you made the point. After I started with my teacher, I happened to get a chance to touch hands with his then second most senior student. It felt like a tank was coming at me, though he wasn’t really “turning it on”. It was intimidating. 

My teacher on the other hand felt like a cloud (still does), and he can “disappear” at will and “reappear” suddenly, by which point it is too late to do anything.  

 

A few years later, I touched hands with that person again (I didn’t get a chance to meet him in between). I felt like he was a child, and I could move him around at will. I figured  my skills had improved (I’d been working out with my teacher diligently for a few years, plus my own daily practice of 2-3 hrs).

It’s very interesting that he actually uses the term ling qi  on the video screen for  what he describes as extracorporeal qi in the audio. My understanding is that Ling qi can have  a pretty deep spiritual connotation whereas extracorporeal qi seems more of a general term that could mean many different things. 

 

My experience with  tai chi is pretty limited, is ling qi something that is commonly viewed as part of the 8 energies or is his interpretation/usage pretty unique?
 

 I also don’t recall any reference to the 5 directions and how they might be related to this. 

[Taomeow]

2 hours ago, Sahaja said:

It’s very interesting that he actually uses the term ling qi  on the video screen for  what he describes as extracorporeal qi in the audio. My understanding is that Ling qi can have  a pretty deep spiritual connotation whereas extracorporeal qi seems more of a general term that could mean many different things. 

 

Ling is a shen.  Something qi dissipates into in many everyday situations.  Cultivational practices of some taoist schools aim to get it back into the body.

 

2 hours ago, Sahaja said:

My experience with  tai chi is pretty limited, is ling qi something that is commonly viewed as part of the 8 energies or is his interpretation/usage pretty unique?

 

It is part of everything when it is strong and hasn't dissipated, but it is not in any way specific to the eight energies. 

 

2 hours ago, Sahaja said:

 I also don’t recall any reference to the 5 directions and how they might be related to this. 

 

For the authentic traditional take, you may want to read some taiji classics, in particular The Songs of Taiji:

http://www.scheele.org/lee/classics.html

 

 

 

 

 

[S:C]

On 25.10.2024 at 6:52 PM, Taomeow said:

that it involves manipulation of the qi of your

opponent

-- or his li if he ain't big on cultivated qi.

 

How would that work conceptually? No need for demonstrations, though. 
Is that why so many focus on the energetic aspects of cultivation? 
 

…  Do you remember of what that is part of a process of, what you mentioned in your post just above?

Edited October 27 by S:C