Two of the types of Qi in Tai chi

[Taomeow]

38 minutes ago, S:C said:

How would that work conceptually? No need for demonstrations, though. 
Is that why so many focus on the energetic aspects of cultivation? 
 

…  Do you remember of what that is part of a process of, what you mentioned in your post just above?

 

Conceptually it's akin to Archimedes's idea: "Give me a place to stand and rest my lever on, and I can move the Earth."  The taiji classics version is, "Four ounces move a thousand pounds."  (I think I wrote once that I suspect Archimedes, when he traveled to Egypt to study at the library of Alexandria, may have encountered some taoist teachers.   And taoist teachers -- as well as Greek philosophers for that matter -- were big on cultivating both the mind and the body.)  In taiji, "the place to stand" is rooting skills, and "levers" rest on that -- positioned and applied to "a force of a thousand pounds" provided by your opponent. 

(I've never moved a thousand pounds, let alone the Earth...  but guys twice my size, half my age -- quite procedurally.  If it was an inanimate object this heavy -- not a chance.  That's because an inanimate object is not giving me any force, I've nothing to borrow.  But a human opponent just begs you to apply a taiji lever to the force he's graciously supplying.)     

 

I don't know what "the energetic aspects of cultivation" mean, since I don't see qi as energy.  Energy may or may not have qi; qi may or may not have energy.  Qi used in taiji is more like a configuration of change...  and believe me, that is way more mysterious and complex than "energy." 

 

By "that" in your last sentence, I'm not sure I know what you're referring to, would appreciate it if you specify.                 

[S:C]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

But a human opponent just begs you to apply a taiji lever to the force he's graciously supplying.)     

 

I don't know what "the energetic aspects of cultivation" mean, since I don't see qi as energy.  Energy may or may not have qi; qi may or may not have energy.  Qi used in taiji is more like a configuration of change...  and believe me, that is way more mysterious and complex than "energy." 

 

By "that" in your last sentence, I'm not sure I know what you're referring to, would appreciate it if you specify.    

There’s memories from the gymn that support that, I never understood or asked why. But yeah, you deal with expectancies, causalities and flows and more, I recall, push, hold, give way or release and more maybe. Might be perceived as fields, with some subtle perception, I have not.
 

With ‘energetic components of cultivation’ I am referring to what energetic pupils of various branches of daoism or yoga are blaming the picture of the classics buddhist meditator to lack in their practice. This why the energetic ones deem it incomplete or have different opinions on the goal of practice and functionality. 

In simple words: why do they need fighting if they propagate non-violence? 

 

Specifying/referring to ling qi …靈 ? The search engine doesn’t help here, lots of conflicting and confusing or contradictory information there. Is that always present for everyone or part of a process of development or something? 

Edited October 27 by S:C
Gosh I am really hard to understand.

[dwai]

23 hours ago, Sahaja said:

It’s very interesting that he actually uses the term ling qi  on the video screen for  what he describes as extracorporeal qi in the audio. My understanding is that Ling qi can have  a pretty deep spiritual connotation whereas extracorporeal qi seems more of a general term that could mean many different things. 

It IS spiritual. My teacher calls it "surface" power. We are not big on academic terminology - we focus on experience and application. 

We apply it in all our form practice by activating certain points in our body as connection points for this surface power. For example, if you move your arm, the shoulder, elbow, and wrist joints are expanded, acting as an energetic conduit to this outside qi. Mentally, the practice involves splitting the world into two halves (conceptually). As the arm moves forward, it pulls the half of the world (that is behind the arm) forward with it. If it moves backward, it pulls the half of the world in front of it. This is just an example on how to get started. Eventually it works in all directions, as if we are floating in an ocean of this "stuff" - each movement causes ripples or tidal waves depending on the power of our intent. 

23 hours ago, Sahaja said:

 

My experience with  tai chi is pretty limited, is ling qi something that is commonly viewed as part of the 8 energies or is his interpretation/usage pretty unique?

According to a comment in his video, he says it is an artifact of the neigong he teaches (shendao neigong). But in our system, this is considered pretty advanced (as opposed to the "internal" hydraulic based system most taichi people seem to be doing). 

23 hours ago, Sahaja said:

 

 I also don’t recall any reference to the 5 directions and how they might be related to this. 

Can't say about his system, but in our system, the 5 directions have to do with the 5 elements, and they are, IMHO, application strategies - not alchemical things. 

[Taomeow]

22 hours ago, S:C said:

In simple words: why do they need fighting if they propagate non-violence? 

 

They have been attacked millions of times, that's why they need to know how to fight.  E.g. Shaolin (a Buddhist place) was destroyed a dozen times throughout history -- by emperors, armed bandits and looters, the red guards during the cultural revolution, you name it.  In most cases peaceful monks were killed, which prompted the ones who came after them and rebuilt the temple to start learning to fight.  Chenjiagou, the birthplace of taijiquan as we know it, was attacked and looted and peasants were mistreated so many times and so brutally that there's even a proverb in China, don't remember it verbatim but the essence is, there's two things to fear in this world -- the pits of hell and the fields of Chenjiagou.   It's not violence, it's self-defense that is behind the idea of a spiritual person having the right and, in the case of defending the helpless, responsibility to know how to fight and to fight when necessary.

 

"Non-violence" is an empty set, as a mathematician might put it.  What constitutes violence?  If one is attacked by a murderer, is defending one's life "violence?"  How about defending a child?  Everyone and everything that is being threatened with annihilation?  How about planet Earth if it gets in the way of some nefarious, demonic entities bent on unleashing extinction?  "Non-violence" would be a crime against humanity under many special circumstances.  Peaceful folks might train for such circumstances -- they are not the ones unleashing violence, but to be someone who can oppose it is fully compatible with both high spirituality, high moral standards,  and common sense. 

 

22 hours ago, S:C said:

Specifying/referring to ling qi …靈 ? The search engine doesn’t help here, lots of conflicting and confusing or contradictory information there. Is that always present for everyone or part of a process of development or something? 

 

Yes, it happens to everyone, welcome to the internet.   They don't say that "95% of everything on the internet is bullshit" for nothing.  Take this maxim seriously and don't get too frustrated -- the remaining 5% is gold, seek and you shall find. 

 

My understanding of ling comes from my taoist teacher.  It was translated to me as "supernatural intelligence."  The term means nothing of course without a more extended explanation of the concept.  But the practice that is aimed at getting it back into the body is not explainable in words, only in -- well, practice.  

[dwai]

46 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

"Non-violence" is an empty set, as a mathematician might put it.  What constitutes violence?  If one is attacked by a murderer, is defending one's life "violence?"  How about defending a child?  Everyone and everything that is being threatened with annihilation?  How about planet Earth if it gets in the way of some nefarious, demonic entities bent on unleashing extinction?  "Non-violence" would be a crime against humanity under many special circumstances.  Peaceful folks might train for such circumstances -- they are not the ones unleashing violence, but to be someone who can oppose it is fully compatible with both high spirituality, high moral standards,  and common sense. 

 

I couldn't agree more. There is no honor in being a pacifist in the face of tyranny. The Indian strategist Chanakya wrote in his treatise on statecraft - Arthashastra, some 2000 years ago that the following course of action should be taken (when faced with those who mean us harm) -

1. Negotiate (Sāma) - Try to negotiate for peace.
2. Payment (Dāma) - If talks don't work, try compensating the other party within reasonable means (and depending on your ability to endure a conflict)
3. Divide (bheda)  - If that fails, divide your enemy and scuttle their will 
4. Punish (Danda) - Use force (if you have the ability) 

Violence should be the last resort, but one should be prepared to deal with it. While the above guidelines are intended for statecraft, they also apply in everyday life. 

[Cobie]

 

8 hours ago, dwai said:

… as if we are floating in an ocean of this "stuff" - each movement causes ripples or tidal waves depending on the power of our intent …

Now I think I fully understand what you are talking about.  Yes, I experience that.

 

 

Edited October 28 by Cobie

[dwai]

12 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

Now I think I fully understand what you are talking about.  Yes, I experience that.

 

 

No mitochondrial respiration required 😜

[Cobie]

 

@dwai true, for me it’s not required. But I do have a lot of respect for the “mitochondrial respiration” person.  
 

 

Edited October 28 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

11 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

@dwai true, for me it’s not required. But I do have a lot of respect for the “mitochondrial respiration” person.  
 

 

For those who may concern:
It is cell or cellular respiration not mitochondrail respiration. Do a little investigation for a full comprehension might increase one's wisdom!

Peace!

[dwai]

28 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

For those who may concern:
It is cell or cellular respiration not mitochondrail respiration. Do a little investigation for a full comprehension might increase one's wisdom!

Peace!

I thought you’d hold your comments?  

[ChiDragon]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

I thought you’d hold your comments?  

Ha ha Ha
I was only ask not to participate in the discussion. There is an old Chinese saying: One must fight for a good reason (有理必爭).

Edited October 28 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

Ok now that we’ve gotten the outlandish theories out of the way, lets get back what qi in Taichi actually is.

 

@Taomeow you make an interesting observation about qi not always being “energy”, but sometimes a pattern. What did you mean by it? 

[forestofclarity]

On 10/28/2024 at 8:19 AM, dwai said:

It IS spiritual.

 

I'm not really sure what the term "spiritual" means. 

[dwai]

Here he’s breaking down the different levels of Taichi 

 

What’s really cool is how he disambiguates between the yin and yang aspects of each level. Yin is always awareness, yang is varyingly release of tension, intention, and so on. 

[dwai]

5 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

 

I'm not really sure what the term "spiritual" means. 

What does it mean to you? 

[forestofclarity]

17 hours ago, dwai said:

What does it mean to you? 

 My question is what it means in this topic. 

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 My question is what it means in this topic. 

It means it is based on awareness/consciousness. I’m going to go a bit dualistic here - once there is awareness of the surface energy, it becomes accessible for application. 

[Sahaja]

 

https://youtu.be/hwGk0k2NNRM?si=BZyaM9iUrvnwqsEc

This video by him has a very interesting and clear differentiation of the various frames of yang tai chi. From his perspective Large frame uses internal qi (ti qi), middle frame uses external qi (ling qi) and small frame uses yi.  Interesting discussion of application to weapons as well. 

[dwai]

On 11/17/2024 at 11:48 AM, Sahaja said:

 

https://youtu.be/hwGk0k2NNRM?si=BZyaM9iUrvnwqsEc

This video by him has a very interesting and clear differentiation of the various frames of yang tai chi. From his perspective Large frame uses internal qi (ti qi), middle frame uses external qi (ling qi) and small frame uses yi.  Interesting discussion of application to weapons as well. 

He also goes into a very esoteric concept here.