Yi Jin Jing/ Tendon-Muscle Strengthening Exercises

[Master Logray]

9 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

Which set is it then? I feel like I see so  many different ones.  

 

Damo's description is not correct according to China research.   There are so many different sets that differs from each other so markedly as if they are different Qigongs.   Some of them are dangerous.  My first time to receive acupuncture in life was due to a set of YJJ allegedly from Putin Shaolin Temple which injures me.

[RobB]

11 hours ago, Maddie said:

I realize I'm a bit late to this conversation but I was watching a video maybe a year ago from Da Mo Mitchel and he said that Yi Jin Jing wasn't a set of exercises but a set of principles. Any thoughts on this? 

 

My understanding is that the Yi Jin Jing are a set of principles - often explored/worked on/communicated through a set of exercises. So you'll get 'sets' of 'Yi Jin Jing' exercises which are similar but vary. My teacher teaches a set of exercises for Yi Jin Jing but also says that Yi Jin Jing principles should be present in our Bagua practice.

[Sahaja]

My point was that many schools used the principles in their training regime exercises but they aren’t the originals. The original was essentially how to use energy to support the full Buddhist path -particularly the second and third treatises (YJJ was the first treatise that took the individual from skin level depth to marrow depth  - the others went far beyond this). Original was not about martial arts it was about using energy to support self  cultivation to achieve enlightenment . All the sets today are derivative from this reflecting what those practitioners were able to glean as outsiders and what they were focused on because they were attracted to the power associated with it.. Generally they wanted to use this to support another purpose besides spiritual cultivation - like martially focused ones. Some of these applications are so old people think they reflect the original as evidenced by the comments here. Unfortunately many things get handed down that while having a grain of truth have many other grains as well for a variety of reasons, some intended some because they didn’t know better and just got passed them on without challenge. 

[Maddie]

7 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

My point was that many schools used the principles in their training regime exercises but they aren’t the originals. The original was essentially how to use energy to support the full Buddhist path -particularly the second and third treatises (YJJ was the first treatise that took the individual from skin level depth to marrow depth  - the others went far beyond this). Original was not about martial arts it was about using energy to support self  cultivation to achieve enlightenment . All the sets today are derivative from this reflecting what those practitioners were able to glean as outsiders and what they were focused on because they were attracted to the power associated with it.. Generally they wanted to use this to support another purpose besides spiritual cultivation - like martially focused ones. Some of these applications are so old people think they reflect the original as evidenced by the comments here. Unfortunately many things get handed down that while having a grain of truth have many other grains as well for a variety of reasons, some intended some because they didn’t know better and just got passed them on without challenge. 

 

I'm curious how does YYJ relate to Buddha's cultivation? I'm genuinely curious.

[Sahaja]

The story goes that the monks had gotten ill from just sitting and not taking care of their bodies and this was impeding their cultivation. so Bodhidharma, a Buddhist monk that wasn’t from China -probably India, first (YJJ) dealt with their health then went beyond this into the marrow (which is developing the brain/heart - which means both the physical and the part beyond the physical)  and then beyond this. 

 

all these stories we have are just legends but so are all the stories about the exercise sets. Legends built on legends. There is also a legend there is still one copy of the original somewhere being held in secret - legend- truth - who knows. 
 

however, bones up/releasing flesh down is so ubiquitous in the internal arts I think this has truth irrespective of the source and it works. 

Edited December 4 by Sahaja
Missed something

[Sahaja]

The origin of Chan Buddhism has also been attributed to Bodhidharma (though there is a competing legend to this that his teacher originated it). He supposedly lived to be 150 years old. 

[Master Logray]

39 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I'm curious how does YYJ relate to Buddha's cultivation? I'm genuinely curious.

 

It was the lore.  Actually the Ji Ying Taoist of Ming Dynasty made YJJ and purported to be from Buddhist origin.  It was written around 1600 only. 

[Sahaja]

My interpretation of this is that what we have is what you say (forgery from 1600) but there is something more behind this reflected commonly across the internal arts. 

[qin00b]

7 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

 

 

 

Search up the old threads for Gengmenpai Yijinjing and you will find something legit

 

Thanks. I'll put it on my list to start after my current gong of Fragrant qigong is completed. 

[Master Logray]

56 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

My interpretation of this is that what we have is what you say (forgery from 1600) but there is something more behind this reflected commonly across the internal arts. 

 

It is common.  e.g. the Yellow Emperor Internal Classics, said to be written BC2600, but believed to be written or compiled around BC300.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Master Logray said:

 

It is common.  e.g. the Yellow Emperor Internal Classics, said to be written BC2600, but believed to be written or compiled around BC300.

 

Yeah I hear it's pretty common in China because they're the consider older to be better.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, qin00b said:

Thanks. I'll put it on my list to start after my current gong of Fragrant qigong is completed. 

Be careful, Fragrant Qigong is not compatible with other systems. Proper YJJ is already draining enough, it will do damage to you if you do both.

[qin00b]

2 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Be careful, Fragrant Qigong is not compatible with other systems. Proper YJJ is already draining enough, it will do damage to you if you do both.

 

Yes, that's why I'm waiting to finish this cycle before starting a new method.

[Thrice Daily]

It’s funny because really all the body does in these movements is express itself in a series of lines .

 

Points that move around eachother often symmetrically and complimentary or opposing ,, on one plane or another, taking straight lines , or curves as their pathways.

 

The truth is that just like a single pinprick of light , devoid of time and space, if somehow born here into matter with us,,, will soon have precisely the same co-ordinates to work out from… 

 

Up and down, left and right, forwards and backwards. Difference being (our pin prick of light here) we are a human body, arms legs head and all these wonderful articulating joints.

 

yet still all are confined to these movements… up down left right forward back, rotate, rotate etc… 

 

Spiralling back to Yijinjing for a moment. The momentum and action in part reminds me a lot of a jelly fish ,,, hehe . And the pulsing the body is capable of when joints are opening and closing.

 

i’m quite sure in fact, that many very ancient human beings have stumbled on this reality of the body and wherever and whenever they practiced… it’s very likely, that once they started bending their knees, twisting their torsos and arching through the joints in their arms whilst ‘playing’ with these choices of motion and planes to respect in each movement,

 

it’s very likely they would resemble greatly , your typical Shaolin sets, same flavour and everything. I think I would even put money on it

 

that many many humans had a secret practice (and maybe group) way way way back in time… 100,000 200,000 years even.

 

It doesn’t take too much to slip into sync if you begin with a simple small opening and closing movement then make it bigger and bigger and gather a certain momentum in the movement.

 

I know because I did it with a very simple martial arts drill and as it opened and opened there it was inside, all the flavours of Shaolin just start being naturally expressed by the body even though the basic movement pattern is the same as original . (It was fma heaven six that shown me this simple truth)

 

With this in mind, I’m quite interested, to find writings and sets from any people through time, that really got into this practice in themselves and explored it. 
 

I guess I’m just nosey. I don’t want to copy them as such . I love discovering new things myself..

 

but it would be nice to put more pieces to the puzzle together and maybe I guess, get a bit more insight into my daily practice (now 2 days on 1 day off , thanks Master Logray) of the mighty and reliable YIJINJING 👍 

Edited December 4 by Thrice Daily

[Thrice Daily]

After doing my Yijinjing form I'll often do some martial arts. It is often quite off the cuff and fairly freestyle movement, lots of blocks and strikes mixed into rhythmic movement, back and forth, side to side etc.

 

After looking into Master Logray's Suggested reading , as usual  I've stumbled on some totally new (to me, very cool stuff) it seems I have been unknowingly practicing the art of Ziranmen. This is a lovely find. Thankyou, I hope you guys have a look, if you like Yijinjing and associated practices...

 

What is Ziranmen???

 

Ziranmen (自然门) – The "Natural Style" Martial Arts

Ziranmen (自然门) translates to "Natural Gate" or "School of Naturalness." It is a martial art that emphasizes spontaneity, intuition, and natural movement. It embodies the principles of Daoism (Taoism), particularly the idea of following the natural flow of life and movement, akin to the concept of Wu Wei (无为), or effortless action.

This martial system is celebrated for its fluid and adaptable techniques, making it highly effective in both combat and personal cultivation. 

 

This guy has some great drills;

 

 

And this guy, but totally totally different in appearance; and his ensuing routine in the video is pretty great...

 

 

This is an interesting article about a prominent figure in this natural style...  http://www.naturalstylekungfu.com/resources_wanlaisheng.html

He introduces the story of origin and first purported master and originator (for want of a better word) of this complete internal art system...

 

HERE IS A SUMMARY FOR THOSE INTERESTED IN THIS PARTICULAR "ART'S" ACCEPTED INCEPTION

Master Dwarf Xu and the Origins of Ziranmen Kung Fu

Master Dwarf Xu, also known as Xu Ai Zhi (许爱之), is the legendary figure credited with founding Ziranmen Kung Fu. His real name remains unknown, and he is widely referred to as Dwarf Xu due to his short stature. According to legend, Dwarf Xu's journey began in Sichuan Province, where he spent much of his early life in the wilds of Mount Emei, living among monkeys and surviving through sheer will and natural instincts. This unique upbringing is said to have deeply connected him to nature, helping him develop extraordinary martial skills.

The Legend of Dwarf Xu

One of the most famous legends surrounding Dwarf Xu’s youth involves his time spent in the forests of Mount Emei, where he was said to have been abandoned as a child. There, he honed his physical abilities and understanding of nature by surviving in the wild, drawing strength from the Qi of the earth. His time with the monkeys is often cited as the foundation for his impressive agility and physical dexterity, which later played a major role in his martial arts development.

At some point, Dwarf Xu was discovered and taken in by a martial arts master and scholar living near the Emei Temple. Under the master's guidance, Xu quickly demonstrated a remarkable aptitude for martial arts, mastering techniques from both northern and southern styles of Chinese martial arts. His ability to grasp new movements instantly, without the need for prolonged training, puzzled his master, who began to suspect that Xu's extraordinary talents were not entirely due to traditional training methods.

The Martial Test

To test his student’s abilities, the master attacked Xu with various forms of combat, including punches, kicks, and even armed strikes with a stick. Remarkably, Xu easily dodged every attack with minimal effort, sometimes countering with strikes so precise and powerful that even the seasoned master could not avoid them. In one test, the master attempted to strike Xu with a stick, but Xu not only dodged but skillfully disarmed the master, even using the stick to strike back.

This extraordinary performance led the master to wonder if Xu's abilities stemmed from his unique experiences in the mountains, particularly his connection to the natural world and the Taoist concept of Wu Wei (effortless action). Xu’s natural understanding of martial principles, without formal teaching, suggested that the core of martial arts lay in harmony with nature, and his ability to spontaneously react with power and precision became the foundation of Ziranmen Kung Fu.

Ziranmen Philosophy and the Taoist Connection

The central philosophy of Ziranmen is rooted in the Taoist concept of Ziran (自然), which translates to "naturalness" or "spontaneity." This principle emphasizes the idea of action without force—where the practitioner reacts effortlessly, in harmony with nature, much like the concept of Wu Wei (non-action). The idea is that martial skill, like all aspects of life, should flow naturally and without struggle, emerging spontaneously from within, rather than being forced or contrived.

Dwarf Xu’s Influence and Pilgrimage

After his teacher’s death, Dwarf Xu continued to refine Ziranmen by traveling across China, seeking knowledge from the greatest martial arts masters. His travels allowed him to incorporate elements from different schools, creating a unique and well-rounded martial art. This journey was crucial in shaping Ziranmen as a distinctive system, one that not only tested its techniques against the best martial artists but also incorporated a deep understanding of Taoist philosophy.

Master Xu and Du Xin Wu

After years of refining his system, Dwarf Xu found a young disciple, Du Xin Wu (杜心武), a martial arts prodigy from Hunan Province. Though initially skeptical of Xu’s abilities due to his appearance, Du soon became one of Xu’s most famous students. The two had a challenging start, with Du frequently testing Xu’s skill with surprise attacks. However, Du’s persistence was met with quick retribution from Xu, and after an unsuccessful attempt to attack Xu while he was sleeping, Du recognized the depth of his master’s abilities.

Du studied with Dwarf Xu for eight years, learning the martial philosophy and techniques that would later define Ziranmen. After their intense teacher-student relationship, Dwarf Xu vanished, returning to Mount Emei, and disappeared from history. No written records exist of Xu after his time with Du Xin Wu, but his legacy lived on through his disciple, who carried forward the teachings of Ziranmen.

 

Full article here: https://www.ziranmen.com/master-dwarf-xu

 

What an Enigmatic Art and Origin Story...

 

Edited December 4 by Thrice Daily

[ChiDragon]

27 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

the concept of Wu Wei (无为), or effortless action.

Effortless action had been the misconception of Wu Wei in western thinking. Wu Wei does not mean do nothing to accomplish something. Its true philosophical meaning is "let nature take its course" implicating that do not take action to interfere with the course of nature.

Laozi's definition of Wu Wei (无为) is well expressed in the chapters of the DDJ. People didn't read the interrelationship of the chapters to get the true meaning of WU Wei. Instead, they had translated Wu Wei word for word as "non action" to mislead themselves.

[Thrice Daily]

22 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

I'm curious how does YYJ relate to Buddha's cultivation? I'm genuinely curious.

Strikingly enough I’ve found the simple teachings of Vippasana 

 

When practiced daily with Yijinjing are extremely compatible. I’d been sitting and working at Dhamma Dipa and I’m going back to regular life was still able to sit for around 3 hours per day. That and Yijinjing was fantastic together.

 

In terms of cultivation it goes well, I think the main reason is that both practices do such a great job of developing effort, (willpower) or Virya / Yi if you want to go Pali and Chinese on it… 

 

So in terms of cultivation , on any path , more effort and powers of concentration are likely to help propel one forward on the journey. 
 

As far as dwelling at the destination, I can’t know for sure but there was a strong sense of that too. Tranquillity of the mind certain emerges more independently and it’s a lot easier to be Joyful (when not tired and instead energised from Yijinjing) same goes for Compassion (your not fatigued so that’s good) and Equanimity is a lot easier to come by even in more difficult scenarios. (easier to stay calm I think, while body system much more well oriented and harder to unsettle as more unified) 

 

Another reason for them working so well together is the balancing of a practice that am be so Yang, and then one typically more Yin. They compliment eachother very nicely. 
 

There is more I could say, but that’s the basis of it…

[Thrice Daily]

On 04/12/2024 at 10:09 AM, RobB said:

 

My understanding is that the Yi Jin Jing are a set of principles - often explored/worked on/communicated through a set of exercises. So you'll get 'sets' of 'Yi Jin Jing' exercises which are similar but vary. My teacher teaches a set of exercises for Yi Jin Jing but also says that Yi Jin Jing principles should be present in our Bagua practice.

Cool , can you say more about your set Rob , and perhaos what your teacher suggests to do before and/or after practicing Yijinjing 

 

My teacher favoured Taichi (in class) and an immediate sit down afterwards for a slow cup of green tea,  with some words perhaps.

[Sahaja]

Video Reminds me of training I had  back in the late 70s and early 80s. Palm strikes(palm and back of hand/fingertips) into bean bags/newspaper bundles and harder stuff, metal rings on the arms during circle walking, , doing low horse stance moving forms wearing 40 lbs of weight in a backpack while swinging a 20lb long metal staff, hitting the body to condition it (mostly with our own or another’s body), use of herbs and certain forms to deal with the bruising, jumping over obstacles head first onto a hard floor and rolling into a fighting stance, tons of very low stances (mole form or leg sweeps-moving very low to the floor underneath staffs held by the teacher ), lots of long static stances in twisty positions, work with swords, staffs, spears, halberds. Used to give demonstrations of one inch palm strikes to people visiting practice area. This was mostly waigong, external skill - using conventional body mechanics based on muscular contraction, though there were some links to neigong(internal skill). There can be a lot of power in waigong when you learn to use your whole body at the same time (e.g. waizhang or pozhang form). Good stuff to practice when you are young.  For me now more interested in learning movement through (song) release which is associated with neigong. Interesting sound similarity wei and wai - governance/interference/action and external. Seems like a conceptual link as well - release of tension and listening (used in neigong) are both wu Wei and wu wai. 

[Cobie]

 

22 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

… Wu Wei (无为), or effortless action. …

 

無為 (无为) wúwéi - Wu Wei. 

 

At the time of Laozi - one of the meanings of 為 (为) wei2  was ‘behaving like a civil servant’.

無 (无) wú negates what follows.

Laozi’s Wu Wei in the DDJ, means ‘be yourself’ (don’t behave unnatural, like civil servants do).

 

 

Edited December 5 by Cobie

[Thrice Daily]

I think Wu Wei is best understood (personally) as intuition, instinct of sorts. 
 

The impulse that as long as I don’t rush, I may approach fresh reason. I’m another moment, as change is so very kind to us, if only we let it, be…

 

Wu Wei for me also comes alive more and more because I ask it to come alive more and more. Of course this is just my interpretation, but it is how I understand the word and then the meaning broadens and deepens, so when I say it is has a certain connotation … 

 

I could be wrong, but still I’ll share anyway of you don’t mind…

 

In many of my Yijinjing movements I will find myself saying a gratitude , Thankyou over and over again sometimes , to aspects that are alive in that movement. Whether it be the earth, my body, the stars or the very light that created it all (if at all I thank it) I thank existence, and what may have powered it up. I ask to be guided and led , I ask to be protected from harm and I ask to be filled up with healing so I may help others. 
 

I ask that I may be guided through the talents I have, through my current understanding so that I might get deeper in my practice, if it will be helpful, safe and just, I ask to keep me humble and keep my movements from injuring me. 
 

I ask many things like this, each day… and I believe this leads me deeper and deeper into Wu Wei , amongst other things as I ask specifically for more natural awareness and development, more virtue like kindness for self and others..

 

This brings life and ultimately I think this is what the arts are. A connection to all and even possibly the light behind the light of the universe.

 

I give thanks for my little life and tell the light I am very joyful everyday because of it, and letting me have this little life here just just a flash of time wedged between my parents and my child . I say thanks for this and I ask for a long long life and for it to guide me to get there, for me and my loved ones if the light sees fit. I ask it to make me a vessel. I try to stay humble while I talk to the universe and the light.

 

it answers me, sometimes quickly, my practice changes. I witness gifts. I think this is Wu Wei , perhaps some call it Grace.. I think it is infinite and like a slip stream we can get into .

 

It can protect us from harm too. That’s it for me anyway. I hope you receive gifts from your practices too. At least sometimes..

 

But then I had dry practice for years also. Blessings. And hope you gain something from my words 🙏 

 

(also I’m very open to correction/constructive criticism/hearing your views) 

Edited December 5 by Thrice Daily

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Some good videos on the topic:

 

 

 

[Sahaja]

While I think the video is good, my understanding is that  once we start dealing with them as exercises you start introducing muscles and muscular contraction and  tension which negates or runs counter to Yi Jin Jing. Essentially the basic process is for the flesh to hang off the bone without any self imposed tension - with only gravity elongating and stressing the connective tissue. The process focuses on releasing any tension you are imposing, whether consciously or unconsciously. Gravity and release of tension in the body then stresses the connective tissue. This starts the change process. The release also frees up qi you are using to hold the tension which can make things a little interesting, hehe.

  While there is nothing wrong with strengthening the body with conventional exercise that uses muscular contraction, it’s a different practice and it doesn’t do the same thing.

[Thrice Daily]

What you are saying makes a great deal of sense, I hope you carry on contributing to this thread. Your points can’t be over stated

 

i think early on in the journey towards ultimate song, there is a lot of tension on the way, and muscular sensations are hard to keep away from, and might even be useful earlier in the ultimate journey.

Sometimes I feel a sense of stepping out of my own way, and the movement takes it’s own shape. It feels very different in quality, more connected more whole,

 

Yet and still though my body is still like a coiled Spring  and the tightness to release is found again, even in the time of said repetition(s) of movement. 

 

@Sahaja regarding your earler post, it's understandable that you don't mind mixing practices with a sense of ease. Your body and mind sounds as though it has undergone a lot of training.. I'm aware of a certain stage you may remember back to. When it clicks in your pracice that the level of awareness can intensity can be adjusted to almost any practice to make it safe to "mix"

 

When I had this ability i started to learn to toggle in and out of different practices / traditions with a sense of mental and emotional ease, there may be a better way to put it but i'll leave it there for he time being.

 

It's humbling to read all the training you threw yourself at, 50ish ad 40ish years ago. That is incredible...

 

You know I have a big pile of Martial Arts Magazines I managed to get a few years ago. They are from the early 90s and being UK publications they speak of (and interview) many great martial artists that travelled and settle in the uk in the 60's and 79's , what a great time for Martial Arts, there was some real quality, simply great dedication back then from what I can tell. 

 

Can you remember your teachers, and could you add anything you remember from classes we may apply here , to further appreciate YJJ? 

Edited December 6 by Thrice Daily

[Sahaja]

You are right. It’s a lot easier to release tension that you feel than that you don’t feel. However, most people have tension they carry that is  below  their perceptual radar either at the subconscious or unconscious level. Been working to become aware of and release some of the subconscious holding patterns lately. Very interesting. almost knocked myself over when I turned some of it off and the qi moved. Made me laugh. I guess some level of tension has a purpose but likely the majority of it is unnecessary and needlessly uses up our energy. 

as far as mixing things, I would say almost all of my teachers (and many of the old masters you read about) had studied more than one approach.so when they are teaching you you are getting something that is already mixed (at least energetically) whether they intend to mix or not.  I think there are even some traditions that encourage this at a point in someone’s training to give them perspective. From a practical matter it’s good to separate different practices with a break so that you don’t confuse your body. Also if  your body tells you not to do a practice (happened to me once), you should listen as it is possible that certain things don’t mix well but I think this is more the exception rather than the rule. Having a strong energetic anchor in the lower Dan tian absolves many potential energy issues. 

Edited December 7 by Sahaja