The Three Levels of Reality in Nondual (Advaita) Vedanta

[dwai]

In Classical Advaita Vedanta, three levels of "reality" are defined.

1. Pratibhasika Satya - Pratibha means image, pratibhasika means imaginary. This is what can be called illusory - imagination-driven, the stuff of most dreams, etc.
2. Vyavaharika Satya - Transactional reality - this makes up our waking world and waking experiences
3. Paramarthika Satya - The Ultimate Reality - This is the undifferentiated nature of Pure Consciousness, where there are no longer differences (dualities) such as me and you, this and that, subject-object. One could also call it pure objectless consciousness. 

 

The practical aspect of Advaita is to discern between Vyavaharika and Paramarthika by recognizing that our true nature is pure, undifferentiated consciousness. Towards that end, a few different methodologies are provided. These are both phenomenological as well as intellectual in nature, and requires some preparatory work such as the ability to steady the mind and body -

1. Drik-Drsya Viveka - The method of seer and seen
2. Pancha Kosha Viveka - The method of processing the five layers/sheaths of our being
3. Avastha-traya Viveka - The method of the three experiences (waking, dreaming and deep sleep) 

 

[old3bob]

 

and I'd add a Sat Guru helping and their Grace, otherwise methods have limited results.

Edited November 7 by old3bob

[Mark Foote]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

In Classical Advaita Vedanta, three levels of "reality" are defined.

1. Pratibhasika Satya - Pratibha means image, pratibhasika means imaginary. This is what can be called illusory - imagination-driven, the stuff of most dreams, etc.
2. Vyavaharika Satya - Transactional reality - this makes up our waking world and waking experiences
3. Paramarthika Satya - The Ultimate Reality - This is the undifferentiated nature of Pure Consciousness, where there are no longer differences (dualities) such as me and you, this and that, subject-object. One could also call it pure objectless consciousness. 

 

The practical aspect of Advaita is to discern between Vyavaharika and Paramarthika by recognizing that our true nature is pure, undifferentiated consciousness. Towards that end, a few different methodologies are provided. These are both phenomenological as well as intellectual in nature, and requires some preparatory work such as the ability to steady the mind and body -

1. Drik-Drsya Viveka - The method of seer and seen
2. Pancha Kosha Viveka - The method of processing the five layers/sheaths of our being
3. Avastha-traya Viveka - The method of the three experiences (waking, dreaming and deep sleep) 

 

My understanding of the teachings of Gautama the Shakyan is that the first four concentrations end in automatic activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation solely by virtue of the location of consciousness.

 

The five further concentrations end with the cessation of habit and volition in the activity of the mind in feeling and perceiving,  presumably feeling and perceiving solely by virtue of the experience of consciousness without habit or volition.

 

The first three of the further states Gautama declared as "the excellence of the heart's release" through the extension of the minds of compassion, of sympathetic joy, and of equanimity, respectively,.  The extensions were each the extension of "the mind of" beyond the boundaries of sense in all directions, and without limit.

 

Some objective, particular instruction, although Gautama declared that some were freed through the further concentrations and "intuitive wisdom", while others were freed through "intuitive wisdom" alone.
 

 

[dwai]

On 11/7/2024 at 4:17 PM, Mark Foote said:

My understanding of the teachings of Gautama the Shakyan is that the first four concentrations end in automatic activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation solely by virtue of the location of consciousness.

 

The five further concentrations end with the cessation of habit and volition in the activity of the mind in feeling and perceiving,  presumably feeling and perceiving solely by virtue of the experience of consciousness without habit or volition.

 

The first three of the further states Gautama declared as "the excellence of the heart's release" through the extension of the minds of compassion, of sympathetic joy, and of equanimity, respectively,.  The extensions were each the extension of "the mind of" beyond the boundaries of sense in all directions, and without limit.

 

Some objective, particular instruction, although Gautama declared that some were freed through the further concentrations and "intuitive wisdom", while others were freed through "intuitive wisdom" alone.
 

 

Hi Mark,

 

Can you elucidate this for me? It'd be great if you could explain the first four concentrations in lay-person terms, etc. 

[stirling]

On 11/7/2024 at 2:17 PM, Mark Foote said:

My understanding of the teachings of Gautama the Shakyan is that the first four concentrations end in automatic activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation solely by virtue of the location of consciousness.

 

The five further concentrations end with the cessation of habit and volition in the activity of the mind in feeling and perceiving,  presumably feeling and perceiving solely by virtue of the experience of consciousness without habit or volition.

 

The first three of the further states Gautama declared as "the excellence of the heart's release" through the extension of the minds of compassion, of sympathetic joy, and of equanimity, respectively,.  The extensions were each the extension of "the mind of" beyond the boundaries of sense in all directions, and without limit.

 

Some objective, particular instruction, although Gautama declared that some were freed through the further concentrations and "intuitive wisdom", while others were freed through "intuitive wisdom" alone.

 

Just to clarify - the jhanas (concentrations) are not levels of reality, but rather analogs of layers of understanding. Insight is permanent, but the jhanas are temporary states, valuable in helping recognize and understand emptiness, but not permanent shifts.

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Just to clarify - the jhanas (concentrations) are not levels of reality, but rather analogs of layers of understanding. Insight is permanent, but the jhanas are temporary states, valuable in helping recognize and understand emptiness, but not permanent shifts.
 

Back at you.

The jhanas are particular experiences, of consciousness and the mind and body, based around experience of the singularity of the consciousness identified with the self (the one associated with the thought, "I am").  Not the permanency or reality of the notion of self, nor the permanency or reality of the "I" in "I am", but the experience of the singularity of that consciousness.

A person can "see by means of wisdom", yet not have destroyed the cankers (asavas) completely.  A person can practice all the jhanas, yet not have destroyed the cankers complelely.

 

 

And which, monks, is the person who is freed both ways? As to this, monks, some person is abiding, having apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal having transcended material shapes; and having seen by means of wisdom his cankers are utterly destroyed. I, monks, do not say of this (person) that there is something to be done through diligence. What is the reason for this? It has been done by (them) through diligence, (they) could not become negligent.

 

And which, monks, is the person who is freed by means of intuitive wisdom? As to this, monks, some person is abiding without having apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal having transcended material shapes; yet, having seen by means of wisdom (their) cankers are utterly destroyed. This, monks, is called the person who is freed by means of intuitive wisdom. I, monks, do not say of this (person) that there is something to be done through diligence. What is the reason for this? It has been done by (them) through diligence, (they) could not become negligent.

 

And which, monks, is the person who is a mental-realiser?  As to this, monks, some person is abiding, having apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal having transcended material shapes; and having seen by means of wisdom some (only) of his cankers are utterly destroyed.... This, monks, is called the person who is a mental-realiser.  I, monks, say of this monk that there is something to be done through diligence....                         

 

And which, monks, is the person that has won to view?  As to this, monks, some person is abiding without having apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are having transcended material shapes; yet having seen by means of wisdom some of his cankers are utterly destroyed, and those things that are proclaimed by the Tathagatha are fully seen by him through intuitive wisdom and fully practiced.... This, monks, is called the person who has won to view.  I, monks, say of this monk that there is something to be done through diligence....                         

 

And which, monks, is the person who is freed by faith?   As to this, monks, some person is abiding without having apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are having transcended material shapes; and having seen by means of wisdom some of his cankers are utterly destroyed, and his faith in the Tathagatha is settled, genuine, established.  This, monks, is called the person who is freed by faith.  I, monks, say of this monk that there is something to be done through diligence....     

                                                                                                                                     

And which, monks, is the person who is striving for dhamma?   As to this, monks, some person is abiding without having apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are having transcended material shapes; but although he has seen by means of wisdom his cankers are not (yet) utterly destroyed; and those things proclaimed by the Tathagatha are (only) moderately approved of by him by means of intuitive wisdom, although he has these states, namely the faculty of faith, the faculty of energy, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of wisdom.  This, monks, is called the person who is striving for dhamma.  I, monks, say of this monk that there is something to be done through diligence....        

 

And which, monks, is the person who is striving for faith?   As to this, monks, some person is abiding without having apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are having transcended material shapes; yet, having seen by means of wisdom his cankers are not utterly destroyed; but if he has enough faith in the Tathagatha, enough regard, then he will have these things, that is to  say, the faculty of faith, the faculty of energy, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of wisdom.  This, monks, is called the person who is striving after faith.  I, monks, say of this monk that there is something to be done through diligence....   

 

MN 70 (Kitagirisutta, PTS 478-480 pp 151-154)

 

 

Nevertheless, the paths of the learner and of the adept include right concentration, and right concentration is "one-pointedness of mind":

 

And what… is the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations, with the accompaniments? It is right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right mode of livelihood, right endeavor, right mindfulness. Whatever one-pointedness of mind is accompanied by these seven components, this… is called the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations and the accompaniments.”

 

(MN III 117 © Pali Text Society vol III p 114; “noble” substituted for Ariyan; emphasis added)

 

 

Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness.  (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein. 

 

(SN 48.10, Pali Text Society vol. V p 174)
 

 

… just as a handy bathman or attendant might strew bath-powder in some copper basin and, gradually sprinkling water, knead it together so that the bath-ball gathered up the moisture, became enveloped in moisture and saturated both in and out, but did not ooze moisture; even so, (a person) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease. 

 

(Pali Text Society AN vol. III p 18-19; see also MN 119 Pali Text Society vol. III p 132-134)

 

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 11:31 PM by Mark Foote

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Just to clarify - the jhanas (concentrations) are not levels of reality, but rather analogs of layers of understanding. Insight is permanent, but the jhanas are temporary states, valuable in helping recognize and understand emptiness, but not permanent shifts.

 

The only person ive ever seen discuss Jhana as it was explained to me  @freeform, who literally described it identically

 

Let me see if I can dig it up

 

 

 

Quote

What happens on a mechanistic level is that the locus of your consciousness shifts from one ‘body’ to another… from the physical to the energetic body for instance - or from energetic to astral - or from astral to causal etc. This is the more ‘tantric’ understanding of what happens ‘under the hood’.

 

Being around these kinds of people, who have stabilized these states, is surreal beyond words. If they can reach the formless jhanas and stabillize it,  reality and causaility itself completely breaks down around them

 

Even at he earlier stages, emitting light visible to the naked eye would be expected

 

This would be considered rather odd, however, once you consider it alongside attainments like rainbow body etc, its not at all suprising really

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Hi Mark,

 

Can you elucidate this for me? It'd be great if you could explain the first four concentrations in lay-person terms, etc. 
 

Dwai, thank you so much for your interest.

Take a gander at Applying the Pali Instructions, if you would (the "someone" in that first paragraph is Stirling!).  Let me know what you think.

 

 

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

Take a gander at Applying the Pali Instructions, if you would (the "someone" in that first paragraph is Stirling!).  Let me know what you think.

 

Just on these two points

 

 

 

If you look above, at the previous thing I posted, the lay person explanation would be that the focal point of conciousness shifts from the physical body to the energetic body

 

That is why the sensation of piti is mentioned, because the sensation of piti is in the energy body

 

The bridge between the physical and energetic bodies = breath, hence one of the reasons why anapanasiti is usually what they use in Buddhism

 

However the reason why tantric paths see more success, for laypeople,  is they build the energetic substance  in the energy body up to such a degree and density that it is far easier for the focal point of awareness to switch to the energetic body and use that as the object of absporption

 

If you could imagine that thing people use when doing an eye test, where they read the lines of letters. Concentration alone would be like training to read the botton small line, whereas concentration plus eneregetic building - that would be making the letters bigger until they read like the top line

 

I hope that makes sense, its a rather unusual way of putting it. 

 

There are actually objective signs you've managed to enter first jhana, though Im not sure how public they are, so maybe its better not to get into those 

[forestofclarity]

18 hours ago, stirling said:

jhanas (concentrations) are not levels of reality,

 

According to the traditional sources, the formless jhanas are accessing the formless realms. 

[old3bob]

43 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

According to the traditional sources, the formless jhanas are accessing the formless realms. 

 

I'd say everything from a grain of sand or a neutrino is a level of of reality...

Edited Tuesday at 04:22 PM by old3bob

[stirling]

33 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

According to the traditional sources, the formless jhanas are accessing the formless realms. 

 

My experience is that:

 

Yes, there are gods, devas, nagas, as well as heavens, hells, realms, etc. All of them happen within emptiness of the dharmakaya and lack intrinsic existence. This is something that can be seen moment to moment.

 

People can experience the Six Realms of Existence within a five minute period, for example... but they are transitory like everything else.

 

Enlightenment is formless in its nature, and always present. While the jhanas are analogous to different depths of formlessness, they aren't formlessness itself. Formlessness does not depend on causes and conditions for its existence. The jhanas, in contrast, depend on practices and teachings.

[old3bob]

 

I ate an abstraction the other day with salad dressing on the side but it left me feeling empty...

[forestofclarity]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Yes, there are gods, devas, nagas, as well as heavens, hells, realms, etc. All of them happen within emptiness of the dharmakaya and lack intrinsic existence. This is something that can be seen moment to moment.

 

Yes, in Tibetan nomenclature, we would say that things appear conventionally but remain ultimately empty. And yes, the formless realms (arupa loka) is not the same thing emptiness (sunyata). Within the conventional realm, we can also distinguish between valid and invalid perceptions. A hallucination and a mountain and both empty, but once has conventional validity in a way the other doesn't (which is why some distinguish between conventional reality and ultimate emptiness). 

 

Of course, some here ascribe to the Pali suttas in particular which tend to posit real atoms of matter and mind, a position rejected by Mahayana. 

 

One area of dispute among modern Buddhists is whether gods, devas, etc. are conventionally "real" or merely psychological symbols, or whether the arupa jhanas are actual lokas or merely states of mind. 

 

[Sherman Krebbs]

 

 

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

I ate an abstraction the other day with salad dressing on the side but it left me feeling empty...

  

Is there reality beyond a person and his/her cob salad, or is the limit of reality is wherever the cob salads of ordinary beings are not?

[stirling]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

A hallucination and a mountain and both empty, but once has conventional validity in a way the other doesn't (which is why some distinguish between conventional reality and ultimate emptiness).

 

Both appear in consciousness, both are the product of causes and conditions, and both arise in emptiness. More and more, as dualities dissolve, I think that inevitably this artificial boundary will also completely fall away. 

 

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

Of course, some here ascribe to the Pali suttas in particular which tend to posit real atoms of matter and mind, a position rejected by Mahayana.

 

Setting traditions aside, I would urge ANY practitioner of any lineage to approach an enlightened master (or senior teacher) and ask them to show them/help them see the non-dual nature of reality. I have actually met Theravada teachers who do this in some form or another anyway.

 

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

One area of dispute among modern Buddhists is whether gods, devas, etc. are conventionally "real" or merely psychological symbols, or whether the arupa jhanas are actual lokas or merely states of mind. 

 

Yeah. I would say that they are provisionally/relatively real - dependent on causes and conditions, like everything else, but not absolutely real. 

[stirling]

3 minutes ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

Is there reality beyond a person and his/her cob salad, or is the limit of reality is wherever the cob salads of ordinary beings are not?

 

Relatively real cob salads fill relatively real bodies.

[old3bob]

 

I get it now, E=Mc2,  or Empty=Meaning times Cobb salads doubled up...namely one for relatively real bodies and one for the Golden Buddha body. 

[forestofclarity]

4 hours ago, stirling said:

Both appear in consciousness, both are the product of causes and conditions, and both arise in emptiness. More and more, as dualities dissolve, I think that inevitably this artificial boundary will also completely fall away. 

 

If you think it's aritifical, try to feed yourself on dream food or buy a taco with imagined gold! 

 

Distinguishing relative appearances is the wisdom of discernment or discrimination in the traditions I am familiar with. Being unable to distinguish mental illness or relative illusion would be a problem, aka "the two moon problem." 

 

4 hours ago, stirling said:

I have actually met Theravada teachers who do this in some form or another anyway.

 

Some do, some don't. I try to meet people in their paradigm. 

 

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

I get it now, E=Mc2,  or Empty=Meaning times Cobb salads doubled up...namely one for relatively real bodies and one for the Golden Buddha body. 

 

Gaudapada is pretty on point with emptiness of conventional phenomenon from a Madhyamaka POV, and so is Shankara. Swami Sarvapriyananda is able to navigate it pretty well, and sees a lot of correlation. 

 

Do you follow a tradition, old3bob? It might be easier if you set forth just what you accept as authoritative. 

[Mark Foote]

23 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Just on these two points

 

 

 

If you look above, at the previous thing I posted, the lay person explanation would be that the focal point of conciousness shifts from the physical body to the energetic body

 

That is why the sensation of piti is mentioned, because the sensation of piti is in the energy body

 

The bridge between the physical and energetic bodies = breath, hence one of the reasons why anapanasiti is usually what they use in Buddhism

 

However the reason why tantric paths see more success, for laypeople,  is they build the energetic substance  in the energy body up to such a degree and density that it is far easier for the focal point of awareness to switch to the energetic body and use that as the object of absporption

 

If you could imagine that thing people use when doing an eye test, where they read the lines of letters. Concentration alone would be like training to read the botton small line, whereas concentration plus eneregetic building - that would be making the letters bigger until they read like the top line

 

I hope that makes sense, its a rather unusual way of putting it. 

 

There are actually objective signs you've managed to enter first jhana, though Im not sure how public they are, so maybe its better not to get into those 
 

They're very public, as Gautama had "no closed fist of the teacher":

What more does the community of bhikkhus expect from me, Ananda? I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back.

(Maha-parinibbana Sutta, Part Two: The Journey to Vesali 32, tr. Sister Vajira & Francis Story)

 

Regarding the energetic body--can't say as I'm familiar with it, but I do find that the singularity of consciousness has an ease, if I can get some of the other components of mindfulness working as well--to wit:
 

1) Relax the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation;

2) Find a feeling of ease and calm the senses connected with balance, in inhalation and exhalation;

3) Appreciate and detach from thought, in inhalation and exhalation;

4) Look to the free location of consciousness for the automatic activity of inhalation and exhalation.

 

 

Those being what are to me the actionable elements of the mindfulness Gautama referred to as his own.

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 12:45 AM by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

8 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Enlightenment is formless in its nature, and always present. While the jhanas are analogous to different depths of formlessness, they aren't formlessness itself. Formlessness does not depend on causes and conditions for its existence. The jhanas, in contrast, depend on practices and teachings.

 

 

 

My feeling is that the jhanas are natural states of concentration, inherent in the experience of consciousness, body, and mind, and they are manifested as habit and volition fall away.

 

2 ¢, there.

 

Edited Wednesday at 12:55 AM by Mark Foote

[stirling]

53 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

My feeling is that the jhanas are natural states of concentration, inherent in the experience of consciousness, body, and mind, and they are manifested as habit and volition fall away.

 

I agree with you... they are something one can tune into like radio stations, but impermanent. 

[stirling]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

If you think it's aritifical, try to feed yourself on dream food or buy a taco with imagined gold! 

 

Distinguishing relative appearances is the wisdom of discernment or discrimination in the traditions I am familiar with. Being unable to distinguish mental illness or relative illusion would be a problem, aka "the two moon problem." 

 

At its basis, what matters is how we respond to the apparent world we are surrounded by. I think Donald Hoffman's work is worth a look. 

 

 

[dwai]

15 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I agree with you... they are something one can tune into like radio stations, but impermanent. 

Interesting stuff about the 'jhanas'...

In the Advaita Vedanta tradition, "stages" of meditation are not given much importance since realization requires the intellect to be active. It could be said that even if you enter into nirvikalpa samadhi in yogic meditation, you are still you (i.e., the body-mind complex) when you come out of it. Savikalpa samadhi (a still/settled mind with active intellect) is necessary for nondual inquiry.  

 

There are preparatory practices that include a combination of yogic meditation (dhyana), selfless service (seva), good company (satsang), and devotion (bhakti). These will help the individual seeker achieve mental focus and establish an active silence/stillness.

 

The problems encountered in the Advaitic path are as follows -

1. Chitta mala - Impurity of the mind (can be resolved using selfless service)
2. Chitta Viksepa - Scattered mind (can be resolved by using meditation)
3. Asambhavana - Doubts about the veracity of the teachings (these can be resolved in the company of fellow travelers and realized teachers, as well as with devotion to the lineage/teachings)
4. Viparita Bhavana - Regressive tendencies - these are usually a result of incomplete foundational work, such that even after reaching a certain degree of understanding and clarity, from time to time a "slipping" occurs in the mind of the seeker. These are a result of vasanas (karmic patterns) that re-emerge. On a side note, a holistic medicine practitioner I used to visit told me that problems tend to rise in cycles (sometimes, it is a 13-month cycle, some larger and some smaller).