Developing Right Student Mindset: Martial Arts Edition

[Thrice Daily]

11 minutes ago, S:C said:

If I learned anything from those I consider a teacher and/or a friend, it is that asking the right questions is imperative. Reading TT’s comment did help remind me of a few lessons that always serve to be learned again and again. 

The receiving part might hear his words from the ear of condescension or bullying or aggression, (on y soit qui mal y pense!) but it seems to be open to a broader spectrum of interpretation and one where TT’ throws Ariadne a red thread in the labyrinth of the dragon to find her way out there hopefully. 
 

https://www.buboquote.com/en/quote/32-carroll-if-you-don-t-know-where-you-are-going-any-road-can-take-you-there

 

Applying discipline or cultivation to a lost cause or wrong end is a waste of time and energy that could (or should) be avoided if it doesn’t coincide with one’s personal goal or nature). It’s always wiser to observe and orient with several options and consequences before deciding for a course of action. 

 

Sometimes a more direct approach can be necessary, I don’t see an insult or offense here: not everybody can teach with silence alone. 
 

Aren’t we all getting a little miffy with the so called modern emotional based rules of rational discourse? Cultivation is no cuddling. 
It must have been more fun to talk in the past.

Isn’t it funny…

 

I can’t think of a single martial arts film for example,That attempts to show the traditional and Mystical teacher old Chinese teacher,,

 

as someone that is nice to the student. They are most times extremely harsh, cutting with their words and quite crazy [memorable/effective]

 

think about it, it just doesn’t happen. In hardcore training, the most brutal teachers and teaching style is often the most effective. Leaving little room for error or time wasting… 

 

Work harder, you not good enough, try harder, what you doing is stupid waste of time, do it proper, ready go etc.

 

I know what you mean. 

[Nungali]

" Film "   .....   ok

 

How about this from REAL life   

 

I was travelling around finding people that had trained with Mr . Nishihira ... directly ... 1 on 1 .   One of them told me this story

 

(but first a bit of background , check the Wiki article on him, if you have not yet .   Now , he had a few  fellow students that where US servicemen ) .... and you know  what USA did to Okinawa  ! ) under Hohan Soken .  When Hohan Soken died  , who was to be the new 'head' and teacher ?  Some decided it was Koesai Nishihira  ( he had documents, and inherited sword , that's a big deal in that culture )  and they informed their students that Mr. N was the new head  and they went to him for training visits .  Most of them IMO opinion didnt follow what he taught   properly and devolved back into  modern style, pay as you go, belt hierarchy McDojo   ( Mr N never did that and good students of his didnt either , they   where  'unadvertised' - word of mouth and taught from home ) . Still , people would come to HIS home  and train with this 'style'  .  he was very subtle about his take on things  and not wanting to offend anyone .

 

Anyway  the point is .....  1of them , a 'student'  ( let's say A ) of   a guy who was the head here (let's call him B )   , went back without the others there ,  to go train wit,h who he had been told  was the  new head and guy that 'got it all '  .... so here is my comment on those film masters ;

 

-  A is very polite on arrival, after some niceties he is invited by Mr N. into his training area and  asked to  ''Please Show me what you know ."

 

So he did some moves, some kata ,  some applications ...  Mr N .  " Oh , very good ... yes  B's style is very good , you have done well . "

 

A ; " Mr N.  with all due respect to B , I have been training under him for years  and yes he is very good and I learnt a lot . But if I want lessons from him , I travel to town , but now I have come half way around the planet to see you and learn from you . "  and bowed .

 

Great response !    Mr N. acted embarrassed and said  "  Ohhhh thank you !  "  Looked him up and down  , "Okay , we start  tomorrow or later ... tell me when 'jet lag' gone . "

 

- and then A started showing me what Mr N taught him  .... WOW  ! 

 

   ... and dont take MA films too seriously   

 

 

 

Another story  from there ;   the lads are training with Mr. N  .   Some  dude in the group at the end of the session goes "Oi ! " to Mr N  and shapes up to fight him .  Mr N leaps through the air with a right roundhouse at his knee making the guy step back and block, but its a fake, it was  double flying roundhouse an the other came around and hit the side of the guys knee .  They had to take him to hospital . 

 

I am sure you get 'the moral of the story ' .   

 

 

 

 

 

.... and thank you for being polite to me  ' Thrice Daily San '.

 

Spoiler

  .. because  if you are not ..... well, all sorts of things could end up happening .

 

 

 

....  ooops ,  I mean 

 

       

.

Edited November 6 by Nungali

[Thrice Daily]

8 hours ago, Nungali said:

" Film "   .....   ok

 

How about this from REAL life   

 

Another story  from there ;   the lads are training with Mr. N  .   Some  dude in the group at the end of the session goes "Oi ! " to Mr N  and shapes up to fight him .  Mr N leaps through the air with a right roundhouse at his knee making the guy step back and block, but its a fake, it was  double flying roundhouse an the other came around and hit the side of the guys knee .  They had to take him to hospital . 

 

So what are we saying , Taoist Texts has to work on his double flying roundhouse kicks? 😆 

 

I know the movies are just movies but it seemed fitting. And I agree, challenging someone more masterful disrespectfully or approaching elders with disrespect should result in a similar fate imho , or at least being verbally cut off at the knee…

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

 

So what are we saying , Taoist Texts has to work on his double flying roundhouse kicks? 😆 

 

Regarding TT ; I would require him to do double roundhouse flying kicks ... at the same time !  

 

 

Spoiler

Now THAT is hip flexibility !

 

( think about it, its impossible .    and extremely difficult even consecutively;  'Our' roundhouse kick' is different from most  and does not start like this

 

 

Position 1 , might be okay when rules apply  , but we didnt follow those rules  ( I still dont ) .

 

I wanna see TT  (or anyone ) fly through the air ,  with both legs in position 1  and then bring the balls of his feet together    

 

9 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

I know the movies are just movies but it seemed fitting. And I agree, challenging someone more masterful disrespectfully or approaching elders with disrespect should result in a similar fate imho , or at least being verbally cut off at the knee…

 

There where more repercussions . People freaked out  " why did that happen "  ????  Mr . N  (outraged )  " he want to fight me ! "

 

" No no ... he wanted to   'spar' with you  ! "  The best way out seemed to be to agree it was a 'cultural translation error ' .

 

That guy should have known to bow first and then ask the teacher if would spar with him in able for him to learn some things .  Once many years back, in a tournament  I saw a nervous green belt hesitating to attack a brown belt . Brown belt smirked and  called him in with a hand movement  .... WHISTLE  stop !   Ref came up to him " Do you want a half point penalty for showing disrespect to minor graded karateka ?"   ... and that was for not showing respect to LOWER grade !

 

Result was  " Very sorry for misunderstanding , Charlie . "  ... bow .

 

(The next morning . guys came downstairs   to find Mr N sleeping on the lounge .  "  Why  are you sleeping on lounge ? " 

 

"  Wife angry at me  ....  because  Charlie's knee . " 

 

  

 

(you see , above  the head teacher  of a style is 'the secret master '    )

[Thrice Daily]

10 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Regarding TT ; I would require him to do double roundhouse flying kicks ... at the same time !  

 

 

 

He could probably do that, no sweat 😉 

10 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Now THAT is hip flexibility !

 

( think about it, its impossible .    and extremely difficult even consecutively;  'Our' roundhouse kick' is different from most  and does not start like this

 

 

Position 1 , might be okay when rules apply  , but we didnt follow those rules  ( I still dont ) .

 

I wanna see TT  (or anyone ) fly through the air ,  with both legs in position 1  and then bring the balls of his feet together    

 

 

There where more repercussions . People freaked out  " why did that happen "  ????  Mr . N  (outraged )  " he want to fight me ! "

 

" No no ... he wanted to   'spar' with you  ! "  The best way out seemed to be to agree it was a 'cultural translation error ' .

 

That guy should have known to bow first and then ask the teacher if would spar with him in able for him to learn some things .  Once many years back, in a tournament  I saw a nervous green belt hesitating to attack a brown belt . Brown belt smirked and  called him in with a hand movement  .... WHISTLE  stop !   Ref came up to him " Do you want a half point penalty for showing disrespect to minor graded karateka ?"   ... and that was for not showing respect to LOWER grade !

 

I agree this is even better, but fail safe in societal terms ‘respect elders’ is a good close second. 
 

10 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Result was  " Very sorry for misunderstanding , Charlie . "  ... bow .

 

(The next morning . guys came downstairs   to find Mr N sleeping on the lounge .  "  Why  are you sleeping on lounge ? " 

 

"  Wife angry at me  ....  because  Charlie's knee . " 

 

  
 

 

Yeah I’ll bet. Injuries suck.

 

10 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

(you see , above  the head teacher  of a style is 'the secret master '    )

It’s funny in our training we were always taught to completely disable the opponent. Smashing them with a total disregard for appropriate levels of reprisal. Simply speed, evasion and complete destruction.

 

ironically I think this actually helped preserve the Buddhist nature of the Wing Chun even more. I think the more we trained more damage the less trouble we would likely end up in. I just wouldn’t use the stuff in real life.

 

Now if our class was more about controlling joints and grappling, I think I would have ended up fighting a lot more (possibly) and having folk come back for revenge after being embarrassed . 
 

It’s ironic. I will just get out of range and keep a sympathetic joy about me rather than go back into combat and it does the trick. So far so good, keeping ego out of things. 
 

There is something about exposure to extremes that can make for healthy training. 

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

 

He could probably do that, no sweat 😉 

 

I agree this is even better, but fail safe in societal terms ‘respect elders’ is a good close second. 
 

 

Yeah I’ll bet. Injuries suck.

 

It’s funny in our training we were always taught to completely disable the opponent. Smashing them with a total disregard for appropriate levels of reprisal. Simply speed, evasion and complete destruction.

 

 

Yes , for an 'opponent'  (on level 2 and 3 ;  1 is 'mucking around with your mates' , so they dont 'best you' . 2 is self defense going through to someone that wants to kill you  , then you are going into what you describe , and certainly is 3. a home invasion type situation where your family is threatened .

 

But I was talking about 'training partners '  .   Another example of 'etiquette' :  MR N. had a friend and favorite training partner (note; not a student ) ; 'Mr  Toma ' .  One time , no lessons , teacher too busy . Why ? He had to do 2 jibs at same time . he was doing My Toma's job for a few days as well as his own  as Mr Toma 'resting ' .  " Oh ... I get Mr Toma very good punch , mid-section  ." 

 

If you hurt your training partner you have to take responsibility .

 

 

 

ironically I think this actually helped preserve the Buddhist nature of the Wing Chun even more. I think the more we trained more damage the less trouble we would likely end up in. I just wouldn’t use the stuff in real life.

 

No ... home invasion ?  Daughter threatened ?

 

Now if our class was more about controlling joints and grappling, I think I would have ended up fighting a lot more (possibly) and having folk come back for revenge after being embarrassed . 
 

It’s ironic. I will just get out of range and keep a sympathetic joy about me rather than go back into combat and it does the trick. So far so good, keeping ego out of things. 
 

There is something about exposure to extremes that can make for healthy training. 

 

[Thrice Daily]

47 minutes ago, Nungali said:

ironically I think this actually helped preserve the Buddhist nature of the Wing Chun even more. I think the more we trained more damage the less trouble we would likely end up in. I just wouldn’t use the stuff in real life.

 

No ... home invasion ?  Daughter threatened ?

Different situation, I’m talking out and about. The only likely conflicts I’ll encounter are just silly ego things.

 

Home invasion would be more likely to be armed insurgents. Certainly not something I’d look forward to. If I did I’d be praying for mushin and a split second to preview a weapon. 
 

Really rather not though. I’ve entertained the thought. It’s a tricky one. It looks like Poland should be safe for now but it’s not unrealistic that it could happen and we could be invaded by land again.

 

Strike and move,, joking apart I have experienced mushin in the past where time has totally slowed down to the point of having around 20 thoughts in sequence in 1 second. I’d feel quite confident if that were to happen in unarmed combat, maybe. Rather not get too cocky there though  

 

I practice it more for the Art, the aesthetics and the beauty, plus a workout and chance to move in time to music as I generally have playing. Ahh to be a lover not a fighter. That is best for me me thinks  

[Nungali]

Dib dib, dob dob.

 

[Thrice Daily]

22 hours ago, Nungali said:

Dib dib, dob dob.

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

I’m starting to dig into the history of the Chinese martial arts more now. I know theJapanese side has much to offer too.

 

As I dig it is starting to help me develop more of a students mindset. 
 

The learning that can’t take place really is quite limitless. We are blessed with internet, there is so much great old footage that has been added to YouTube as it is found and uploaded more and more. It is a real treat.