On distinguishing delusion, insight, insanity and reality

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

So, this is a personal one. But it is anonymous and I have a good impression of the folks here.

 

I have had experiences that I would characterise as super natural/spiritual and others as delusions. I am not psychothic, but I do know that I am at an increased risk of developing it, and have experienced tendencies in the past. Whats scary about it, is that it appears just as real as anything else. Lets say that I suddnely under the delusion that the CIA was trying to assinate me (I am not, just for illustration haha). That conviction would appear just as real to me as the fact that I am writing these words, right now. What scares me about this, is that once you start questioning your ability to distingiush whats real and whats not, you start questioning everything.

 

On the other hand, I recieved "messages" that I would characterize as spiritual. Helpfull. As if some force, imagined or not, were communicating truths and insights and advice to me. 

 

My question is, if anyone can relate or if they have any advice? One thing I intend to start doing, is grounding/presence. Any ressources that could be of help, or "just chill"?

[Daniel]

41 minutes ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

My question is, if anyone can relate or if they have any advice?

 

I relate to all of it.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

5 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

I relate to all of it.

I have shared this before, and I am aware you know him, but in my harder periods, I turn to this song:

pure perfection 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

I relate to all of it.

I wonder if we would feel healthier if it was viewed in religious terms, demons and angels, and not as an disorder. Even if it is entirely biological, there must be a reason that we have the capacity for it, no?

 

I am not able to provide a reference, but I once heard that in traditional societies, psychotic people were often considered shamans.

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

I have shared this before, and I am aware you know him, but in my harder periods, I turn to this song:

 

I've met him a few times.  I helped him setup a minyan ( evening prayer service ) after one his concerts.  We're in the same community, albeit on opposite sides of the country.  And I love the music.  I'm a fan.

 

 

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

I wonder if we would feel healthier if it was viewed in religious terms, demons and angels, and not as an disorder. Even if it is entirely biological, there must be a reason that we have the capacity for it, no?

 

I am not able to provide a reference, but I once heard that in traditional societies, psychotic people were often considered shamans.

 

yes, I've heard that too.  And then, on the other end of the spectrum, anxiety can produce many of the same symptoms.

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

So, this is a personal one. But it is anonymous and I have a good impression of the folks here.

 

I have had experiences that I would characterise as super natural/spiritual and others as delusions. I am not psychothic, but I do know that I am at an increased risk of developing it, and have experienced tendencies in the past. Whats scary about it, is that it appears just as real as anything else. Lets say that I suddnely under the delusion that the CIA was trying to assinate me (I am not, just for illustration haha). That conviction would appear just as real to me as the fact that I am writing these words, right now. What scares me about this, is that once you start questioning your ability to distingiush whats real and whats not, you start questioning everything.

 

On the other hand, I recieved "messages" that I would characterize as spiritual. Helpfull. As if some force, imagined or not, were communicating truths and insights and advice to me. 

 

My question is, if anyone can relate or if they have any advice? One thing I intend to start doing, is grounding/presence. Any ressources that could be of help, or "just chill"?

 

Just like many things in magic and the occult and psychology  , this 'distinguishing between the two'  has its rules, tests and parameters .  I have made many posts on this .  Of course even though I can support it with   professional evidence and citation of  clinical trials , people will argue against it in an ignorant way ( meaning irrational, illogical,  cant show proper reference or citation and use suspect 'tactics'  - move the goal post, ad hominem ... all that type of diversion )  , and have here in the past .

 

I feel its much better for a PM discussion , or a PP discussion , so the  'annoying mosquitoes' dont try to suck your blood while you are nutting out such central and crucial issues .   

[Daniel]

I promise I'll try not to do that, nungali.

[Neirong]

6 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

Whats scary about it, is that it appears just as real as anything else. Lets say that I suddnely under the delusion that the CIA was trying to assinate me (I am not, just for illustration haha). That conviction would appear just as real to me as the fact that I am writing these words, right now. What scares me about this, is that once you start questioning your ability to distingiush whats real and whats not, you start questioning everything.

 

On the other hand, I recieved "messages" that I would characterize as spiritual. Helpfull. As if some force, imagined or not, were communicating truths and insights and advice to me. 

 

My question is, if anyone can relate or if they have any advice? One thing I intend to start doing, is grounding/presence. Any ressources that could be of help, or "just chill"?

Esoteric practices are not safe. It involves the alteration of subtle bodies and mental faculties. There is a risk of developing mental instability and schizophrenic symptoms. If foundations are weak, people may even lose control over their perception channels. Such channels will have information and signals that can materialize as voices or sudden ideas, which the host may turn to believe as being factual/real. 

 

This risk is with almost everyone who is dabbling with esoteric; there is less risk if the practice is skewered towards the physical body (neigong, qigong) and more risk if the practice is mental or intellectual.

 

Think of a broken mechanism; you can have hypersensitivity, but instead of a proper ESP ability and skills that produce valuable - genuine information, they would randomly give signals based on internal deviation.

 

One of the most effective methods to avoid problems is peer review. Have someone to keep you in check. That person must be skilled and mentally sound.

 

The second is building a solid foundation, with gradual unlocking of the third eye and complete control over thought processes and brain capabilities. Think about five to ten years of daily training, rather hard for most people. But if you want to have powers and have them under your control, and not the vice versa, a sacrifice is necessary.

[Nungali]

10 minutes ago, Daniel said:

I promise I'll try not to do that, nungali.

 

No need to promise anything   as you will not be able to do that in a PM .

 

besides , you dont want my information , you are very satisfied with your own system and the remedies in that .  If its so good, and magick and hermetics are merely a  bad copy of Judaism, as you have claimed , then go to your own tradition to solve the problems you are having .

Edited November 27 by Nungali

[Nungali]

11 minutes ago, Neirong said:

Esoteric practices are not safe. It involves the alteration of subtle bodies and mental faculties. There is a risk of developing mental instability and schizophrenic symptoms. If foundations are weak, people may even lose control over their perception channels. Such channels will have information and signals that can materialize as voices or sudden ideas, which the host may turn to believe as being factual/real. 

 

This risk is with almost everyone who is dabbling with esoteric; there is less risk if the practice is skewered towards the physical body (neigong, qigong) and more risk if the practice is mental or intellectual.

 

Think of a broken mechanism; you can have hypersensitivity, but instead of a proper ESP ability and skills that produce valuable - genuine information, they would randomly give signals based on internal deviation.

 

One of the most effective methods to avoid problems is peer review. Have someone to keep you in check. That person must be skilled and mentally sound.

 

The second is building a solid foundation, with gradual unlocking of the third eye and complete control over thought processes and brain capabilities. Think about five to ten years of daily training, rather hard for most people. But if you want to have powers and have them under your control, and not the vice versa, a sacrifice is necessary.

 

and this is why I advocate training in the proper 'school'   . .

 

I use this analogy a lot ; two people decide to fix their house wiring ( 240v AC )   ; one is trained as a electrician   and one is not .

 

Which one would you want to be ?

[Nungali]

And this is why sometimes, for some people I will recommend Israel Regardie ; the guy was a  fully trained magician and psychiatrist

[Daniel]

Francis Israel Regardie (/rɪˈɡɑːrdi/; né Regudy; November 17, 1907 – March 10, 1985) was an English and American occultist, ceremonial magician, and writer who spent much of his life in the United States. He wrote fifteen books on the subject of occultism.

 

Born to a working-class Orthodox Jewish family in the East End of London, Regardie and his family soon moved to Washington, D.C., in the United States. Regardie rejected Orthodox Judaism during his teenage years and took an interest in Theosophy, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jewish mysticism. It was through his interest in yoga that he encountered the writings of the occultist Aleister Crowley. Contacting Crowley, he was invited to serve as the occultist's secretary, necessitating a move to Paris, France in 1928. He followed Crowley to England before their association ended. Living in England, he wrote two books on the Qabalah, A Garden of Pomegranates and The Tree of Life. In 1934 he then joined the Stella Matutina—a ceremonial magic order descended from the defunct Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn—but grew dissatisfied with its leadership and left. He also studied psychology, being particularly influenced by ideas from Jungian psychology, and explored Christian mysticism.

 

In 1937 he returned to the United States. Concerned that the Golden Dawn system of ceremonial magic would be lost, he published the Stella Matutina rituals in a series of books between 1938 and 1940. This entailed breaking his oath of secrecy and brought anger from many other occultists.

 

During the Second World War he served in the U.S. Army. On returning to the U.S., he gained a doctorate in psychology before relocating to Los Angeles in 1947 and setting up practice as a chiropractor. In 1981 he retired and moved to Sedona, Arizona, where he died of a heart attack four years later.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Regardie

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

58 minutes ago, Nungali said:

And this is why sometimes, for some people I will recommend Israel Regardie ; the guy was a  fully trained magician and psychiatrist

I have friends over, so I’ll resport short and get back to you shortly. But this made me think of something, in large part inspired by @Shadow_self. That modern science, specifically psychology and medicine is BS. 
 

A more holistic approach to human health is needed. I mean, lonliness and stress is more harmfull than smoking. A pill can’t solve that.

 

I heard a beautiful metaphor on the radio a few days ago: if a bunch of fish end up dead in a polluted lake, you are not going to give the fish medicine, but instead clean up the lake.

[Cobie]

 

32 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Francis Israel Regardie … Born to a working-class Orthodox Jewish family

 

“Neuburg was born into and raised in an upper middle-class Jewish family“
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Neuburg_(poet) 

 

 

[Daniel]

8 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

if they have any advice?

 

ok

 

16 minutes ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

That modern science, specifically psychology and medicine is BS.

 

^^ danger ^^

[stirling]

18 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

That modern science, specifically psychology and medicine is BS.

 

Science is fine as long as it is understood what it is for, and used accordingly. What it is NOT is a valid technique for understanding the underpinnings of reality. Keep in mind that there are no absolute truths in science; there are only approximate truths. Whether a statement, theory, or framework is "true" or not depends on quantitative factors and how closely you examine or measure the results. Every scientific theory has a finite range of validity. Inside that range, the theory is indistinguishable from true, outside of that range, the theory is no longer true.

 

Despite what scientific materialists might believe, science is not about finding the absolute truth of the Universe. All scientific truths are provisional, and we must recognize that they are only repeatable models or approximations of reality.

 

 

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

I have friends over, so I’ll resport short and get back to you shortly. But this made me think of something, in large part inspired by @Shadow_self. That modern science, specifically psychology and medicine is BS. 
 

A more holistic approach to human health is needed. I mean, lonliness and stress is more harmfull than smoking. A pill can’t solve that.

 

I heard a beautiful metaphor on the radio a few days ago: if a bunch of fish end up dead in a polluted lake, you are not going to give the fish medicine, but instead clean up the lake.

 

It seems someone thinks you are incapable of doing your own wiki search on things I mention to you - like Israel Regardie  . So they do it  for you and post the results here         - whatever .

 

Modern science and psychology is not bullshit.  To say it is is too general a statement .  For example; I refuse to take some medications that I am 'supposed' to  as ; they dont feel right as soon as they are in my body , I dont consider that I need them , they seem pushed by drug companies and finally , I found out, there is a movement to expose them for some of the reasons I just mentioned .  But I was amazed and very happy about my hip replacement . 

 

Any person , anywhere at any time can and probably will feel some degree of loneliness and stress . What the key issue is, how it is dealt with .  This seems  a basic realization, in many areas, that people do not want to look at .  I have observed its dynamics for decades living in a community ; we are humans , in this particular society ( even if some think they have dropped out or 'gone feral or triba;' , no, its just an expression within this society - they are just playing at those things ... but still going to the supermarket, still doing social media , so I see that as rather funny , anyway ... ) I would say to them ; " Look, we have x amount of people here so statistically that means we are going to have y amount of cases of domestic violence, z amount of cases of child abuse , etc etc .  So we need to have ways and policies of dealing with that and trying to lower those figures ."  NOPE !   It was met with near horror ! 

 

It i.s absolutely denialist and stupid . Its as if we all know a bush fire is p[possible yet we dont want to have any fire fighting equipment  (and that community has now got so bad and the problem has extended so far that now they do not actually have fire fighting equipment anymore ! ) .  Eventually some of those problems, of course , manifested . Instead of having a skill set, remedies,  and post treatment plans , they just ran around like chickens with their heads cut off ..... just like they will do if a bush fire comes onto the property .

 

I have been in various groups ;  communal, social, magical ..... and I have always said ; " It doesnt matter what your group , tribe , gang , monastery or commune  you are going to have the same old human issues  and unless you have a way of dealing with them and addressing them , your group will fail , regardless of its focus or work . "

 

The dead fish ,?  Yes , clean up the lake .  But this is a pretty big lake ! and its being polluted for a very long time .

 

Unfortunately  when we DO get a very big lake to clean up ( or other environmental mess ) ... DO WE clean it up ?  or do we just go somewhere else to  do damage and destruction  there ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Science is fine as long as it is understood what it is for, and used accordingly. What it is NOT is a valid technique for understanding the underpinnings of reality. Keep in mind that there are no absolute truths in science; there are only approximate truths. Whether a statement, theory, or framework is "true" or not depends on quantitative factors and how closely you examine or measure the results. Every scientific theory has a finite range of validity. Inside that range, the theory is indistinguishable from true, outside of that range, the theory is no longer true.

 

Despite what scientific materialists might believe, science is not about finding the absolute truth of the Universe. All scientific truths are provisional, and we must recognize that they are only repeatable models or approximations of reality.

 

 

 

 

I thought to add these definitions   

 

Science

1. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
   "new advances in science and technology."
2. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
   "the science of astronomy."
3. A systematic method or body of knowledge in a given area.
   "the science of marketing."

Scientism

1. The collection of attitudes and practices considered typical of scientists.
2. The belief that the investigative methods of the physical sciences are applicable or justifiable in all fields of inquiry.
3. The often dogmatic belief that science is the only source of knowledge.

History

1. A chronological record of events, as of the life or development of a people or institution, often including an explanation of or commentary on those events.
   "a history of the Vikings."
2. A formal written account of related natural phenomena.
   "a history of volcanoes."
3. A record of a patient's general medical background.
   "took the patient's history."

Presentism

1. The belief that only current phenomena are relevant.
2. Interpreting past phenomena in terms of current beliefs and knowledge.
3. The doctrine that the Scripture prophecies of the Apocalypse (as in the Book of Revelations) are presently in the course of being fulfilled.

Anthropology

• he scientific study of the origin, the behavior, and the physical, social, and cultural development of humans.
• The science of the structure and functions of the human body.

(ie. seeing the value of all human experience , historically and cross - culturally )

Egocentric

1. Holding the view that the ego is the center, object, and norm of all experience.
2. Confined in attitude or interest to one's own needs or affairs.
3. Caring only about oneself; selfish.

 

Now if we combine  scientism  with presentism and egotism  .......    hello modern person !

[old3bob]

Yoga is a spiritual science....

[Thrice Daily]

On 27/11/2024 at 5:10 PM, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

I am not able to provide a reference, but I once heard that in traditional societies, psychotic people were often considered shamans.

I find martial arts helps, sometimes a trancelike quality will accompany it. Over time I've began to realise how and why in many cultures spirituality is not separate from martial arts and dance.

 

I think the body and movement can help to integrate parts of the mind that may become fragmented or seemingly 'lost' in an experience. There is also the added benefit of the grounding that can take place. Often this is enough to shake off any malady of the mind. 

 

I think spatial awareness can be quite helpful. The directions, reaching up , touching or pointing to the ground... 

 

There was once a book on Zen Buddhism i was lucky enough to read when I was 18. I was struggling quite badly at the time with my mind. There was one section of the book that always stayed with me. 4 types of samadhi were discussed. 

man is deprived and circumstances are deprived,

Man isn't deprived and circumstances are deprived,

Man isn't deprived and circumstances aren't deprived. 

 

It was useful particularly,  "Man is deprived and circumstances aren't deprived" at the time I was so stuck in my own head, opening my eyes and looking outside, absorbing myself in the scenery outside myself. I started to short circuit my thought processes. Quite useful understanding.

[Sanity Check]

Stimulate the body to stimulate the mind.

 

Aka exercise.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

@stirling @Nungali

 

I think you’ll enjoy this. It is from foreword of Meditations, written by Viggo Johannesen:

 

So let's ask the question: Is there anything to being a human being?

 

Some might say no to that as well, arguing that being human is purely a socially constructed phenomenon. Regardless of what you believe personally, remember that science cannot help you here. On this point, science is as helpless as faith, it can only believe. Science assumes that man is a material phenomenon in a material world. Which is a decent assumption, but only an assumption. Even a metaphysical assumption. Completely without scientific evidence. As we all know, humans are conscious beings, and since science only recognises material phenomena as real, it is forced to assume that consciousness is something material. Humanity's wisdom traditions, on the other hand, have always spoken of spirit. Spirit is beyond time; it refers to that in man which belongs to eternity. This cannot be proven scientifically either, so we are left with ourselves and our own experience as the only witness to the truth.

 

Is it something to be a human being?
Where do you stand on this perhaps most fundamental question of them all? Have you made up your mind, and if so, on what basis?

Translated with DeepL (https://www.deepl.com/app/?utm_source=ios&utm_medium=app&utm_campaign=share-translation)

[stirling]

2 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

Is it something to be a human being? Where do you stand on this perhaps most fundamental question of them all?

 

There is this unity, and awareness of being that permeates this moment. This emptiness of separateness is the larger fabric from which all seemingly separate things arise. Humans are an epiphenomena of this emptiness, like all seemingly separate phenomena, including, but not limited to, gods, birds, cars, famine, chickens and Britney Spears. Are there humans, or any of the rest? Yes, of course, they have a provisional reality arising from the causes and conditions of the phenomenal world, but they do not have absolute reality. Only the simple awareness of being has absolute existence. 

 

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Two_truths#:~:text=The absolute or ultimate is,aspects of a single reality.

 

Quote

The absolute includes, but supercedes the relative. - Ken Wilber

 

 

2 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

Have you made up your mind, and if so, on what basis?

 

Yes. Persistent experiential understanding that has lasted over 9 years without changing or shifting.

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

@stirling @Nungali

 

I think you’ll enjoy this. It is from foreword of Meditations, written by Viggo Johannesen:

 

So let's ask the question: Is there anything to being a human being?

 

Some might say no to that as well, arguing that being human is purely a socially constructed phenomenon. Regardless of what you believe personally, remember that science cannot help you here. On this point, science is as helpless as faith, it can only believe. Science assumes that man is a material phenomenon in a material world. Which is a decent assumption, but only an assumption. Even a metaphysical assumption. Completely without scientific evidence. As we all know, humans are conscious beings, and since science only recognises material phenomena as real, it is forced to assume that consciousness is something material. Humanity's wisdom traditions, on the other hand, have always spoken of spirit. Spirit is beyond time; it refers to that in man which belongs to eternity. This cannot be proven scientifically either, so we are left with ourselves and our own experience as the only witness to the truth.

 

Is it something to be a human being?
Where do you stand on this perhaps most fundamental question of them all? Have you made up your mind, and if so, on what basis?

Translated with DeepL (https://www.deepl.com/app/?utm_source=ios&utm_medium=app&utm_campaign=share-translation)

 

 

I find that all confusing ... of course it is 'something' to be a human being .

the passage seems to relate to  materialism Vs spirituality .  In either view it must mean 'something; to be a human being , one way or the other .

 

It looks like you are asking if the human being is purely a materialistic construct under the view of scientism  ?