Book of Enoch

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

What in the heavens is going on there? I do have a theory, but that should not be voiced publicly. Anyone here got any theories?

[Daniel]

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Edited Friday at 12:28 AM by Daniel

[Daniel]

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Edited Friday at 12:28 AM by Daniel

[Nungali]

Which 'Book of Enoch' .  I am assuming the 'traditional' one ?   ( However , and I have run into this before ,   some have first come across some type of New Age 'channeled ' version .)

 

 

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

@Daniel @Nungali

 

I don’t recall exactly, but the thing about the sons of god making children with the daughters of men, creating a race of nephilim who became corrupted and it all went to hell. That’s from Enoch, no? How do you make sense of it?

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Allthough there are several versions of the text, I think it is only considered scripture by the Ethiopian church. I don’t think any other church or Judaism recognizes it. I think I heard that a certain passage of OT or some other Jewish text, that is often referred to as the parallels or something like that, bear strong resembelence to the book of Enoch. I was however unable to dig it up. Maybe you @Daniel, might know about this?

[Nungali]

There is the 'apocryphal'  Book of Enoch , thats easy to find  and has been for some time ;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

 

Its best to cite what part of it one wants to discuss .

 

If your source is general and unknown then it could come from all the spin off stuff that has come out of  that book and used out of context, in part or mixed in with other things to support all kinds of possible wacky agendas . 

 

The reference in the Bible is usually from  Genesis 6 .

 

 Or In the Book of Enoch  ; 1 Enoch 6 - 8 .

 

[Chapter 6]

¹ And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto ² them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men ³ and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not ⁴ indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations ⁵ not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves ⁶ by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn ⁷ and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders: Samlazaz, their leader, Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, ⁸ Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaqiel, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. These are their chiefs of tens.

[Chapter 7]

¹ And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms ² and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they ³ became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed ⁴ all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against ⁵ them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and ⁶ fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.

[Chapter 8]

¹ And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all ² colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they ³ were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, 'Armaros the resolving of enchantments, Baraqijal (taught) astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .

https://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH_1.HTM

 

 

Edited December 12 by Nungali

[Sanity Check]

The above quotation could shed light on one of Enoch's narratives.

 

Angels share knowledge of metal working & science with humanity and are punished.

 

This knowledge was shared prematurely causing man's development to become lopsided in the way MLK Jr describes.

 

 

[NorthWide]

So, I had a look at Daniel's version Ethiopian Enoch. Before I say anything further, I will read:

 

14It was also about these people that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord has come with [n]many thousands of His holy ones, 15to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him -Jude 14 & 15 

 

9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones to execute
judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of
all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of
all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him. - Enoch 1:9

 

After reading this book and praying about it, the reasons why they banned it wasn't Because Enoch is false:

• it is because as a Christian you can ask anything in Jesus name and he will do said request.
•  As a result, we can see that this also covers command of Angels, good or evil.
• So, in light of weaponization, it is possible that the Clergy sought to prevent reinfection by these forces that [actually hate Adam (humans) currently] as their demeanor has changed over time.
• Currently there is an Imprecatory (curse) or plague of being eaten up by worms until they are dead against those attempting to spread the works of d-mons, works being known or unknown.

 

All Vessels of God must Be holy quoting Zechariah. End result of abusing it for fame and power would literally be the lake of fire, for even Jesus would not allow Christians to fight other believers or use parapolitical and ideologies that only embody the desires of d-mons to exist. "A house divided cannot stand' - Jesus. In the quote it refers to d-mons but it is also true of the Theocracy.

 

Further, most importantly there are Hebrew terms for reprobate that show especially when you look at an interlinear version of Psalm 15 and look at the Strong's Concordance meanings.

Yes the "Vile person IS despised."

"If you do not repent, you will not survive"- Jesus in weeks leading up to his death he changed his message.

 

Drumroll:

Spoiler

Ethiopian Enoch seems legitimate, but was banned so parishioners would not summon d-mons.

 

After doing further research, I have concluded that, since the Angels mentioned don't coincide with the Talmud or midrashes, the original writing seems lost.

 

Also, the venom the fallen angels had for humans steadily became worse. I think pieces of it were missing at some point and they might have been filled in by another writer.

 

I believe now that fragments of it exist, but that it should be treated as a midrash or noncanonical work.

Edited Friday at 07:51 AM by TheWhiteRabbit
Finished

[Daniel]

14 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

@Daniel @Nungali

 

I don’t recall exactly, but the thing about the sons of god making children with the daughters of men, creating a race of nephilim who became corrupted and it all went to hell. That’s from Enoch, no? How do you make sense of it?

 

The story you're referring to, I know it as chapter 6 in Genesis which follows the previous 5.

 

Chapters 1, 2, 3 are the creation myth.  In Chapter 1, the first commandment is given.  "And God blessed them, and God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over those flying in the heavens, and over every living thing that moves on/towards/against the earth."   

• Be fruitful
• Multiply
• Replenish
• subdue the earth
• have dominion over over all the others, on the surface of the earth, what's beneath its depths, and all that are in the skies, among the stars, and beyond

 

That's a tall order.  Certainly, this can be applied for help or for harm.  What follows is a story about how to choose:  to help or to harm.  The entire Torah is telling this same story over and over.  Any law can be flipped: to help or to harm. Laws come in two forms:  To do ( a positive commandment ).  Not to do ( a negative commandment ).  Both can be flipped for help or for harm.  Because of this, sometimes, breaking the law is helpful.  And.  Sometimes, following the law is hurtful.  So:  how does one choose?  That's the story that's unfolding.  The "Abrahamic" point of view believes that the ONLY way to make these choices consistently for helping and avoiding harm is via an encounter with the divine.  That's the whole Torah in a nutshell.

 

---

 

Chapter 1:  the story of all reality emerging from Chaos-and-Void via divine fiat.  An aloof, emotionally vacuous deity, commands with absolute authority.  No one dares question it, if that's even possible.  God speaks, it happens immediately.  There are no choices.  Creation as described here is the path of Strict Justice. 

 

Chapter 2 contrasts with this.  Here, God is both strict and caring.  The strict justice is sweetened.  "Sweetening" is a Jewish theological  concept.  It's how we Jews deal with adversity.  We joke:  "It's our sense of humor which sustained us in the desert and through all of these years of exile.  If we weren't laughing, we'd be crying."  This chapter is the beginning of teaching the lesson which is the entire Torah:  How does one take a law, from the path of Strict Justice and sweeten it, in such a way that the outcome is consistently helpful, not harmful?  The simple answer that's given in chapter 3:  God chooses to sweeten it with mercy if the two who committed the crime confess honestly.  There are consequences for their actions:  This is Justice, but it's sweetened with kindness.  God here in this story is not revealing itself as the strict authoritarian "Elohim", the mighty forces of nature in concert, obeying the conductor without any questions.  No questioning. 

 

In Chapter 2, the improved version, the sweetened version of the creation events, God is revealing itself as YHVH+Elohim.  Both simultaneously.  Strict Justice which is deriving from, inclining towards, sweetened by, Mercy.  Here, God is among its creation in a garden walking with them.  Here, there is a cycle of life.  Mist is rising, rain is falling.  Flowers and plants are sprouting and blooming fresh, season after season.  This is the story of the "Toldot" the generations, the cycling of life which is being described as a consequence of God's Mercy.

 

Here, humanity receives its life-force directly from the lips of The Almighty, into their nostrils.  This is not the story of a God which is aloof.  This God is present.  And, strangely, has a touch of a sense of humor.  All the other creatures, including the most cunning beast of the field ( a type of angel ) emerge in the garden.  Then, A man is formed ( not created ) from the dust of the earth.  And in the presence of all the others ( including the most cunning ) 2 laws are given, not just 1.  This too, is contrasting with the first chapter, the original version, where there is only Strict Justice.  A challenge now is presented to the reader.  "How does one reconcile these two very different creation stories?"  The answer is simple:  choose.  Which world does the reader want to live in?  Both are happening simultaneously:  The Path of Strict Justice, and also, the Path of Strict Justice which is being sweetened.  And this is the very first, the original source for all apologetics.  It begins here, in Chapter 2 of the Torah. 

 

Yes, we're the best in the business at flipping things into something good ( apologetics ).  Why?  We're taught, "We've been doing this forever.  Since the beginning of our written legacy.  And, BTW, it's the path to peace, and a method for leading a purposeful, moral, upright, and supremely satisfying human life.  But, according to our teachings, our collected wisdom, this can only happen via an encounter with the one and only Divine-Will, there are no others. 

 

Gratefully, if God is filling the heavens and the earth with its Will, Wisdom, Power, and Glory, there's plenty of opportunity for everyone, man, woman, Jew, or not, to learn the mysteries of reality and encounter the divine.  The divine is everywhere and everything.  But, as it exists in the material world, it needs to be sweetened, and that is the job of the human.  The one who can improve, themselves and the world.  God cannot improve.  That is its one and only limitation, in our theology, except, this word as applied here, the absence of any and all limitations.  That's why it cannot improve.

 

In chapter 3, we meet the most cunning of the beasts of the field.  Here, in this improved version of the creation story, the sweetened version, questioning is natural.  But, this comes with a price. Lacking knowledge-of-good-and-evil ( a specific type of knowledge, which does not exist, and cannot exist, while reality is emerging only from from the Chaos-and-Void ), there is no way for a person to make moral choices.  The serpent hears the law being given to the Man.  Naturally, it desires.  It's in its nature, to rise and strike, sinking its fangs and taking the entire bounty.  Splitting and dividing its jaws in a way that is somewhat disturbing.  For what purpose?  Eating everything, and leaving nothing behind for anyone else?  That's what it was made to do:  Swallow whatever it desires, consume it, and render it back into the dust from where it came.  It too received its own law, that's in Chapter 1.  Multiply among you own kind.  But in chapter 2, something special happens.  Something new is formed... a woman is built-up from the side of the man.  Version 2.0 .  She is named, explicitly, his "Helper".  In this story, which is again, the improved sweetened version, in contrast to the one which preceded it:  Man needs a mate. And none of the others will do.  Because this one, the woman, is new, that presents an opportunity to the serpent.  There's a loophole in the law which can be exploited for its selfish, natural, desire.

 

And the story continues, it's a story many speak about, but few know the details precisely as they're written.  But, if its read carefully, after the Man and his Wife eat from the tree-of-knowledge-of-good-and-evil, they too know how to employ the loophole, but this time it's not selfish, it's in their defense.  And, if the story is told, in the way I like to tell it, and the way I was taught, it's all a little comical.

 

In chapter 4, it's this same story again.  Eve one would expect is very careful now in how she is teaching her offspring.  But, its not enough.  Her two sons, both are taught the laws of offerings ( sacrifices ).  One applies it in such a way that God is pleased.  Abel brings the best of the flock.  Cain does not.  Again, the contrast is the most important part of the story.  The serpent, the adversary, is making another appearance here.  But in a different form.  It's also rising and striking with a question, naturally.  God says to Cain:  "If you improve, it will be good for you.  Sin is crouching at the door, but you can be its master."  Cain replies:  "Is my sin too much for YOU to bear, Almighty God?"  God replies, and puts its mark on him, so that all will know:  "Nothing is too much for God to bear in its Mercy."

 

The people see this, and obey:   "No Murder?  Fine.  ... And nothing is too much for God to bear?  Oh really?  Fantastic."  And that leads to the story which comes next.  The era of Enoch, which we Jews are taught, is the beginning of idol-worship in all of its many-many forms.  One of those forms, is imaging oneself, and behaving as a "Son of the Gods".  And that leads us, finally, to chapter 6.  Where we meet the Bene-Elohim, often translated as "Men of Renown", they are the "Champions of the Human race".  We're taught, these are like tribal war-lords.  Feudal, primitive, households, with a "Man" in charge who took what they wanted.

 

These individuals, "The Sons of the Gods"  amassed wealth from their robbery.  What's the worst of the worst type of robbery?  Kidnapping.  If someone wants to manipulate me or anyone.  Take their children as hostages.  It's far far worse than murder.  It cannot be tolerated under any circumstances.  If it is permitted anywhere, by anyone?  The world is returning back to Chaos-And-Void.

 

"There's nothing God cannot bear?  A child is delivered from a specific womb?  To a specific household?  Who cares?  That child is mine.  There is no divine order.  There is no divine plan.  There is no divine law.  I can take it, if I want it. And I will use it to manipulate and extort and force my will how every I choose."  And that's the world that's being described immediately prior to "The Great Flood". 

 

14 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

the thing about the sons of god making children with the daughters of men, creating a race of nephilim who became corrupted and it all went to hell.

 

Chapter 6 begins:

6:1
ויהי כי־החל האדם לרב על־פני האדמה ובנות ילדו להם׃
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,

6:2
ויראו בני־האלהים את־בנות האדם כי טבת הנה ויקחו להם נשים מכל אשר בחרו׃
That the sons of Gods saw the daughters of men that they were pretty; and they took as wives all those whom they chose.

 

14 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

That’s from Enoch, no?

 

I don't remember.  But it makes sense doesn't it?  The "Sons of the Gods", stole the daughters of Adam, this produces a sort of "giant" race of beings.  And not a friendly one.

 

---

 

I hope this helps and wasn't too long.  It's very important that each of the other chapters are included in the understanding of what happens in Chapter 6.

 

If you have questions or comments I am very curious to read them.

 

Blessings to you, always and forever, 

 

Edited December 12 by Daniel

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

21 minutes ago, Daniel said:

I hope this helps and wasn't too long.  It's very important that each of the other chapters are included in the understanding of what happens in Chapter 6.

 

If you have questions or comments I am very curious to read them.

 

Blessings to you, always and forever, 

Thank you. Both for the explanation, kind words and invitation to dialogue. 
 

I do infact have one thing I’d like to ask you about. You wrote a lot about laws. My question also concerns laws, but not in the same sense as you used it. It is both off topic and might come off as insensitive, but if you’d be willing to help me out, I’d appreciate it. If you don’t want to adress it, that’s perfectly fine as well. 
 

Anyway, the following is what I’d like to learn about. I came across some aspects of Jewish law that was, to be blunt, very surprising and a little disturbing , very recently. I was told that Jews operate with two sets of laws. One for the Jews, and another for gentiles. Appearantly debt towards fellow Jews should be forgiven, but debt by gentiles should never. Jews shall never pay interest, while gentiles can never not pay intereset. A Jew killing a gentile has no legal consequences, while a gentile killing a Jew is punishable by death.

So yeah, mind shedding some light on this?

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

If your source is general and unknown then it could come from all the spin off stuff that has come out of  that book and used out of context, in part or mixed in with other things to support all kinds of possible wacky agendas . 

I’m certain it was an legitimate document, but I can’t recall which. The advice I definitely take to heart tho. I’ve definitely falled in that trap from time to time, and absolutely, if a more precise definition of what I’d like to discuss would lift the debate.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

5 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

The above quotation could shed light on one of Enoch's narratives.

 

Angels share knowledge of metal working & science with humanity and are punished.

 

This knowledge was shared prematurely causing man's development to become lopsided in the way MLK Jr describes.

 

 

Hmm it is intriguing. I am not sure I agree that it is the intended message of the text, but the nuclear analogy seems reasonable.

[Daniel]

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Edited Friday at 12:29 AM by Daniel

[Daniel]

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Edited Friday at 12:29 AM by Daniel

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Yes. I’d asked you if it was the case. You said it is, but it is anti semitic, ergo it is not the case. Strange.

 

If you asked me if Norse pagans practiced human sacrifice, I’d answer yes they did. 
 

I would not lable you anti-Germanic. 

[Daniel]

2 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

Yes. I’d asked you if it was the case. You said it is,

 

No.  It's not the case.  Jewish Law has no justification over non-Jews.

 

8 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

My question also concerns laws

 

That's Shulhan Aruch

 

8 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

shedding some light on this?

 

Jewish Law has no justification over non-Jews.

 

9 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

I came across some aspects of Jewish law

 

Can you show me?

 

Did you actually come across it or did you hear a rumor?

 

If it's from the Talmud it's not "law" it's a story or a debate.

 

9 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

I was told that Jews operate with two sets of laws

 

 

Were you told?  You heard a rumor?  Or did you 'come across the law' as you said?  Which is it?

 

9 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

Jews operate with two sets of laws.

 

FALSE 

 

Leviticus 24:22

 

משפט אחד יהיה לכם כגר כאזרח יהיה כי אני יהוה אלהיכם׃

 

You shall have one kind of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country; for I am the Lord your God

.

[Daniel]

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Edited Friday at 12:30 AM by Daniel

[Daniel]

12 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

mind shedding some light on this?

 

If you're not quoting the law, you're not talking about the law 

 

If you're not quoting the Talmud, you're not talking about the Talmud.

 

If you're not quoting the Torah you're not talking about the Torah.

 

You heard a rumor.  Sounds like you believe it.  That's the bottom line.

 

Edited Friday at 12:30 AM by Daniel

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

it is anti semitic

 

Dude.  You're not anti for asking.  Your friends aren't either.  This stuff flows downhill.

 

I'm too busy right now to get into this.  If you're actually interested, start a thread, we'll look at it.  If not, you don't care about my input, you want to believe the rumor.

 

Mat, if you want to believe it, go ahead.  Just don't ask me about it, if you don't care about what I say.

 

 

Edited Thursday at 09:40 PM by Daniel

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

Hmm it is intriguing. I am not sure I agree that it is the intended message of the text, but the nuclear analogy seems reasonable.

 

The one I use  ( to illustrate this rise of technology surpassing human intelligence   and 'common sense '  ... or  us being collectively used by our own very base drives and desires )  is that of a child ;  he is still a child and  does not understand responsibility or consequence of actions ( wisdom )  but ..... he has found Dad's gun cupboard open .....  whoop-eeee  !  "

 

Someone once compared Faust to the avatar of this age ; how he sold his soul to the devil (technology ) to get whatever he desired , easily ... and it lead to the loss of his soul .  And you dont even have to die to loose your 'soul' first ... as we soon found out :

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

Yes. I’d asked you if it was the case. You said it is, but it is anti semitic, ergo it is not the case. Strange.

 

If you asked me if Norse pagans practiced human sacrifice, I’d answer yes they did. 
 

I would not lable you anti-Germanic. 

 

Look, you just are not going to get a straight answer from him .

 

 

You got post bombed !

 

You should have asked me 

 

I would have said a simple 'No'   and left it uop to you to challenge me on it .  

 

Now you have been given the pre-emptive strike in case you do make a challenge on the answer you didnt get  in the first place

 

 

 

.

 

Edited Thursday at 09:48 PM by Nungali

[Daniel]

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Edited Friday at 12:31 AM by Daniel

[Daniel]

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Edited Friday at 12:31 AM by Daniel

[Nungali]

 

Now you are making up stuff you where never asked in the first place . Its JUST LIKE you are attributing those questions to  Sir Darius

 

However you seemed to have demonstrated and answer to some of his questions  ... by that very post you made up of Q & A . 

 

and first you responded  :  " Dude.  You're not anti for asking.  Your friends aren't either.   "

 

then go on to make the above posts ?  WTF ?

 

and then YOU go off in huff  ! 

 

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Edited Thursday at 10:27 PM by Nungali