Common motifs, symbols, beliefs etc. across cultures

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

So, there are aspects of different spiritual traditions that seem to have come to the same conclusion, but with different language and symbols. 
 

Here, I’d like to discuss some of these. A follow up could be, is this innate, or does it point to a common origin (obviously, in some cases it will be due to shared origin, in others due to the fact that we are the same spieces facing similar challenges on the same planet. Some might be down to pure chanche, others might be a combination of all of the above).
 

I’d love to hear your thoughts, and will ofc contribute myself as well. But right now, I think I’d be better of taking the advice of the all-father (Odin):

Havamal (sayings of the high one), stanza 23:

The unwise man is awake all night, 
and ponders everything over; 
when morning comes he is weary in mind, 
and all is a burden as ever.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2024 by Sir Darius the Clairvoyent

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Oneness 

 

Gospel of Thomas

(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the
birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will
precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you
come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you
who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in
poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

 

Hymn to Zeus

(Note: I have it in print. Translated from Ancient Greek to Norwegian. There are versions of it on English online, but I think they are really bad. I decided to let software translate the Norwegian translation. That might have been a mistake, but anyway)

 

Supreme God with many names,

You are eternal, almighty.

You govern the world by Your law, the sovereign of nature.

 

Mortal humans You granted the right to turn to You,

Zeus, for we are of Your kin, bearing a faint echo of Your voice,

we who live our brief day and harvest upon the earth.

 

Always my song rises to You, my hymn praises Your power.

The earth is Yours, and the vast vault of the heavens surrounding it,

willingly they obey You and follow wherever You lead.

 

In Your hands, invincible, You lift the weapon,

the flaming power of lightning, the ever-burning primordial fire.

When it strikes, all of nature freezes in terror.

Through its might, Your law is upheld, common to all,

running through everything, shining in the sunlight,

glimmering in the stars, reflecting even in the smallest being.

 

Therefore, You are the highest King, all through all.

Nothing happens on our earth without You, our God and Ruler,

nothing in the high vault of heaven, nothing in the sea,

except for the evil deeds of humans – they know no better.

 

But their evil You take and turn to good,

creating law from lawlessness, embracing the unlovable with love.

 

You unite the good and the bad in harmony,

everything must align with the law that eternally governs all.

The law he seeks to escape, miserable and wretched,

he who inwardly longs for a treasure, the possession of goodness.

 

Yet he cannot see or hear the law of all things.

Happy would he live if only he followed it.

Without aim or reason, he is driven far from what is good.

At times, it is honor that entices him—what shameful strife he endures for it,

at other times, his heart turns to wealth, gathered by wicked means.

 

Laziness captures one, another is ruled by lust,

driven by many desires and torn apart by restlessness of soul.

Empty is all their striving, and their entire life meaningless.

 

Zeus, giver of all gifts, who hurls the lightning from the clouds,

save us mortal children from all blindness and foolishness.

Cleanse our souls of evil, grant us a share of Your wisdom,

which governs all, the foundation and cause of Your justice,

so that we may be honored by You and honor You in return,

that our songs may praise Your work.

 

This alone is worthy of us who are created to die.

For this is the most beautiful gift gods and humans share:

to honor the law of the cosmos.

 

CLEANTHES

Born 331/30, died 232/31 BCE. After Zeno, the founder of Stoicism, Cleanthes led the school for 32 years.

 

Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 10, Verse 20

 

I am the Self, O Gudakesa, seated in the hearts of all creatures. I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all beings.

Isha Upanishad, 16

 O Pūṣan, sole traveller, Yama, Sun, child of Prajāpati, recall thy rays; withdraw thy light that I may behold thee of loveliest form. Whosoever that Person is, that also am I.

Invocatory Verse by Swami Dayananda

The whole (Brahman) is all that is invisible. The whole (Brahman) is all that is visible. The whole (Hiranyagarbha) was born out of the whole (Brahman). When the whole (the Universe) is absorbed into the whole (Brahman) the whole alone (Brahman) remains.

Tawhid (the oneness of God):

 

“Say, ‘He is Allah, [who is] One,

Allah, the Eternal Refuge.

He neither begets nor is born,

Nor is there to Him any equivalent.’”

— (Surah Al-Ikhlas, 112:1-4)

 

Aristophanes’ speech in The Symposium, Plato

 

In the beginning, humans were different from what they are now. The original human nature was not like the present one, but rather there were three sexes then, not two as now, male and female. In addition to these, there was a third sex, which was a combination of the other two. This combination was called androgynous, as it shared in both male and female characteristics.

 

Each human being was originally round, with back and sides forming a circle; they had four hands, four legs, and two faces on a single head, facing opposite directions. These beings could walk upright like us, but they could also roll over and move quickly using all eight limbs. Their strength and power were immense, and their arrogance caused them to challenge the gods. In punishment, Zeus decided to weaken them by splitting them in two.

 

After they were split, each half longed for its other half. They would embrace and try to become one again, so much so that they often neglected their basic needs and died of hunger or inactivity. To solve this, Zeus moved their genitals to the front of their bodies, enabling reproduction and giving them a way to find some satisfaction in their longing for unity.

 

This, then, is the origin of our desire for love: it is the pursuit of wholeness, the desire to be reunited with our other half and restored to our original nature.

 

Commentary: Possibly my fav myth. The text speaks for itself, so I’ll keep it short. It is from here we get the concept of «soul mates» and «other half.» That is, two separate people sharing the same soul. Also the hermaphroditistic aspect is a recognized aspect of the reconstroctued proto indo European cosmos. It is found in the story below to, in Ymir.

 

Norse myth

This turned into a little bit of a ramble. Reason being is that this is speculation, based on legit texts, but the text doesn’t spell it out: so we have to rely on speculation, symbolism, etymology etc. And to be frank, I kind of forced it in here due to it being one of my favorite topics.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Let’s take a look at its cosmology.

From Voluspa (Prophecy of the völva, a seeress)

1. Hearing I ask | from the holy races,
From Heimdall's sons, | both high and low;
Thou wilt, Valfather, | that well I relate
Old tales I remember | of men long ago.

2. I remember yet | the giants of yore,
Who gave me bread | in the days gone by;
Nine worlds I knew, | the nine in the tree
With mighty roots | beneath the mold.

3. Of old was the age | when Ymir lived;
Sea nor cool waves | nor sand there were;
Earth had not been, | nor heaven above,
But a yawning gap, | and grass nowhere.

4. Then Bur's sons lifted | the level land,
Mithgarth the mighty | there they made;
The sun from the south | warmed the stones of earth,
And green was the ground | with growing leeks.

5. The sun, the sister | of the moon, from the south
Her right hand cast | over heaven's rim;
No knowledge she had | where her home should be,
The moon knew not | what might was his,
The stars knew not | where their stations were.

 

Let’s explore it. Verse 3. refers to gigungagap (or the yawning gap as it is translated to here), which is… quite tricky to put into words actually. It is the primordol state. It is nothing, but yet it contains the potential of creation, and everything that came into existence. Does that make sense?

Audhumbla, which means abundant wealth, was the very first creature and a cosmic cow (😂). (The cosmic cow is referenced in Zoroastrianism and Vedic litteraturenas well!). She lived of the salt in the ice of gigungagap. Licking the ice, it uncovered the first giant, Ymir (giant is also a tiny bit of a mistranslation. The term used is Jotun. A jotun is not nessecarily huge, but never the less, they are comparable to the Greek titans and other beings often referred to as giants in English, so no big deal).

What’s fun about Ymir, is that he (it?) is a hermaphrodite. Cabaple of giving birth by itself. No reason to go trough the whole geneology, so I’ll skip some.

 

Ymir -> beings -> Odin, Villi and Ve -> Ask and Embla
 

As mentioned, Ymir is the ancestor of all. Odin, also known as the all father, and his brothers are the creator of Ask and Embla (think Adam and Eve, the first humans who gave birth to all others).

 

Furthermore, we have the world three. Exactly how they pictured it, we might never know for sure. What we DO know is that all the realms are connected trough Yggdrasil.

 

Ill include some possible interpretations in the attatchments.

1. Överhogdal Weave 1A, Viking age, Sweden

interpertations vary. I see the symetrical pattern in the middle as Yggdrasil, standing on the horns of an elk or deer. From this, one can speculate that Yggdrasil was sort of a metaphor. Both a part of nature, but also including all of nature.

2. Neil Price think the world three might be the milky way

3. “Yggdrasill, the Mundane tree”, Baxter’s Patent Oil Printing, from a plate included in the English translation of the Prose Edda by Oluf Olufsen Bagge (1847). This painting is based on written descriptions.
 

4. Jormungandr, the serpent/dragon (used to be the exact same word my friends) that encircles the oceans. A serpent eating its tail is highly symbolic, is it not?

 

Also, in the Norse mind, there existed no differantiation between the natural and supernatural. They were equally real, existing together. Love it!

 

Summary: it is clear that everything comes from one. In other words, all that is are aspects of the same substance, ergo: oneness. Further more, a lot of the names have meanings such as grandmother, all father, tool (like in the sense of a hammer or a drill: something that is used to create and shape), and the world three connects everything.

 

A curiosity, compare the passage from Voluspa (in the spoiler) to this passage of the vedas:

 

There was neither non-existence nor existence then

there was neither the realm of space nor the sky which is beyond...

There was neither death nor immortality then.

There was no distinguishing sign of night nor of day.

 

 

in the future, there are a couple of other concepts id like to explore. Possibly solar religions or symbolism, the dying and rising god, the world tree, axis mundi, war between classes of gods, use of funny substances, sacrifice, burials, order and chaos… my god, there is an endless amount of topics to choose from here.

 

I hope this is of interest to you as well, and feedback, your own theories etc are very welcomed. Id like to summon @Nungali

@Apech we have not spoken a lot, but we seem to share an interest in myth and you seem quite knowledgeable about aspects of it?

(Check the Norse myth section, and the numbers and images in the spoiler below will make sense)

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Edited December 14, 2024 by Sir Darius the Clairvoyent

[Cobie]

  On 12/14/2024 at 3:32 AM, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

So, there are aspects of different spiritual traditions that seem to have come to the same conclusion, but with different language and symbols. … Here, I’d like to discuss some of these. … I’d love to hear your thoughts …

 

wind and water - 風水 feng1 shui3 - feng shui. 

water and wind - John 3-5, ‘υδατος και πνεύματος’ 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2024 by Cobie

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Hamsa

Edited December 14, 2024 by -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-

[Nungali]

  On 12/14/2024 at 3:03 PM, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

Oneness 

 

 

 

 

5. And the infant grew strong; yet its strength was in its weakness; and though to look at it from before was to look upon a man-child, from behind it was a little girl with golden hair. Now, when the child wished to tempt a maid he faced and approached her; and when the child wished to tempt a man she turned her back on him and fled.

 

4. But one day the child met, at the self-same hour, Love; and the man, seeing a woman, approached her eagerly, and the woman, seeing a man, fled, so that he might capture her. Thus it came about that the child met the child and wondered, not knowing that the child had lost the child. So it was that they walked side by side.

 

3. Then that part of the child that was man loved and lusted for that part of the child that was woman; and each knew not that each was the other, and felt that they were two and yet one, nevertheless one and yet two. And when one said: “Who art thou?” the other answered at the self-same moment: “Who am I?”

 

2. Soon becoming perplexed if I were Thou, or if Thou were I, it came about that the I mingled with the Thou, and the Thou with the I, so that six added to ten became sixteen, which is felicity; for it is the interplay of the elements. Four are the elements that make man, and four are the elements that make woman. Thus was the child reborn.

 

1. But though the man ruleth the woman, and the woman ruleth the man, the Child ruleth both its mother and father, and being five is Emperor over the kingdom of their hearts. To its father it giveth four, and to its mother it giveth four, yet it remaineth five, for it hath of its father an half and of its mother an half; but in itself it is equal to both its father and its mother; for it is father of fathers and mother of mothers.

 

0. Therefore is it One Whole, and not two halves; and being One is Thirteen, which is called Nothing when it is All-things.

 

 

- by General J.F.C. Fuller

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2024 by Nungali

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Will I get banned if I post a swastika 

[Nungali]

The Pleiades  seems a good example ;

 

They have been known since antiquity to cultures all around the world,^[28] including the Celts (Welsh: Tŵr Tewdws, Irish: Streoillín); pre-colonial Filipinos (who called it Mapúlon, Mulo‑pulo or Muró‑púro, among other names), for whom it indicated the beginning of the year;^[29][30]Hawaiians (who call them Makaliʻi),^[31]Māori (who call them Matariki); Indigenous Australians (from several traditions); the Achaemenid Empire, whence in Persians (who called them Parvīn – پروین – or Parvī – پروی);^[32] the Arabs (who call them al-Thurayyā; الثريا^[33]); the Chinese (who called them mǎo; 昴); the Quechua (who call them Qullqa or the storehouse); the Japanese (who call them Subaru; 昴, スバル); the Maya; the Aztec; the Sioux; the Kiowa;^[34][35] and the Cherokee. In Hinduism, the Pleiades are known as Kṛttikā and are scripturally associated with the war deity Kartikeya and are also identified or associated with the Saptamatrika(s) (Seven Mothers). Hindus celebrate the first day (new moon) of the month of Kartik as Diwali, a festival of abundance and lamps. ^{[citation needed]} The Pleiades are also mentioned three times in the Bible.^[36][37]

Galileo's drawings of the Pleiades star cluster from Sidereus Nuncius

The earliest known depiction of the Pleiades is likely a Northern German Bronze Age artifact known as the Nebra sky disk, dated to approximately 1600 BC.^[38] The Babylonian star catalogues name the Pleiades ^MULMUL (𒀯𒀯), meaning "stars" (literally "star star"), and they head the list of stars along the ecliptic, reflecting the fact that they were close to the point of the vernal equinox around the twenty-third century BC. The Ancient Egyptians may have used the names "Followers" and "Ennead" in the prognosis texts of the Calendar of Lucky and Unlucky Days of papyrus Cairo 86637.^[39] Some Greek astronomers considered them to be a distinct constellation, and they are mentioned by Hesiod's Works and Days,^[40]Homer's Iliad and Odyssey,^[41] and the Geoponica.^[42] The Pleiades was the most well-known "star" among pre-Islamic Arabs and so often referred to simply as "the Star" (an-Najm; النجم).^[43] Some scholars of Islam suggested that the Pleiades are the "star" mentioned in Surah An-Najm ("The Star") in the Quran.^[44]

On numerous cylinder seals from the beginning of the first millennium BC, M45 is represented by seven points, while the Seven Gods appear, on low-reliefs of Neo-Assyrian royal palaces, wearing long open robes and large cylindrical headdresses surmounted by short feathers and adorned with three frontal rows of horns and a crown of feathers, while carrying both an ax and a knife, as well as a bow and a quiver.^[45]

 

As noted by scholar Stith Thompson, the constellation was "nearly always imagined" as a group of seven sisters, and their myths explain why there are only six.^[46] Some scientists suggest that these may come from observations back when Pleione was farther from Atlas and more visible as a separate star as far back as 100,000 BC.^{[47]  "}

 

^{VERY curious because several Australian Aboriginal cultures hold the same story}

"

The Star Dreaming story of the Seven Sisters is one of the most widely distributed ancient stories amongst Aboriginal Australia. The songline for this story covers more than half the width of the continent, from deep in the Central Desert out to the west coast. The songline travels through many different language groups and different sections of the narrative are recognised in different parts of the country.

The story relates to the journey of the seven sisters that make up the star cluster known as the Pleiades, in the constellation Taurus. Mythological stories of the Pleiades also cross many other cultures outside Australia – the story also appears in ancient Greek mythology. Observed from central Australia, the Pleiades star group rises above the horizon soon after sunset and keeps a low trajectory above the horizon. Perhaps for this reason this relatively small star cluster takes on extra importance, as it appears to launch from the earth’s surface and make its journey in close proximity to the land. "

 

more at

 

https://japingkaaboriginalart.com/articles/star-dreaming-seven-sisters/

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

  On 12/14/2024 at 9:49 PM, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Will I get banned if I post a swastika 

 

Check with Sir Darius about that !

 

( private 'joke ' )

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

  On 12/14/2024 at 9:49 PM, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Will I get banned if I post a swastika 

I certainly don’t hope so. It is an scientific and widespread symbols. I don’t see how any reasonable person can blame some one living thousands of years ago for useing a symbol asscociated with antisemitism. It is a thousands of old years, Eurasian symbol. 
 

I mean,  I wouldn’t advice putting on boots, growing a mustache and wawing around it, but pointing out that it was an extremely popular, widespread, ancient and positive symbol historically, how can that be wrong? That’s just fact.

 

Anyway, I am willing to take the fall for you:

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

  On 12/14/2024 at 9:49 PM, Nungali said:

The Pleiades  seems a good example ;

 

They have been known since antiquity to cultures all around the world,^[28] including the Celts (Welsh: Tŵr Tewdws, Irish: Streoillín); pre-colonial Filipinos (who called it Mapúlon, Mulo‑pulo or Muró‑púro, among other names), for whom it indicated the beginning of the year;^[29][30]Hawaiians (who call them Makaliʻi),^[31]Māori (who call them Matariki); Indigenous Australians (from several traditions); the Achaemenid Empire, whence in Persians (who called them Parvīn – پروین – or Parvī – پروی);^[32] the Arabs (who call them al-Thurayyā; الثريا^[33]); the Chinese (who called them mǎo; 昴); the Quechua (who call them Qullqa or the storehouse); the Japanese (who call them Subaru; 昴, スバル); the Maya; the Aztec; the Sioux; the Kiowa;^[34][35] and the Cherokee. In Hinduism, the Pleiades are known as Kṛttikā and are scripturally associated with the war deity Kartikeya and are also identified or associated with the Saptamatrika(s) (Seven Mothers). Hindus celebrate the first day (new moon) of the month of Kartik as Diwali, a festival of abundance and lamps. ^{[citation needed]} The Pleiades are also mentioned three times in the Bible.^[36][37]

Galileo's drawings of the Pleiades star cluster from Sidereus Nuncius

The earliest known depiction of the Pleiades is likely a Northern German Bronze Age artifact known as the Nebra sky disk, dated to approximately 1600 BC.^[38] The Babylonian star catalogues name the Pleiades ^MULMUL (𒀯𒀯), meaning "stars" (literally "star star"), and they head the list of stars along the ecliptic, reflecting the fact that they were close to the point of the vernal equinox around the twenty-third century BC. The Ancient Egyptians may have used the names "Followers" and "Ennead" in the prognosis texts of the Calendar of Lucky and Unlucky Days of papyrus Cairo 86637.^[39] Some Greek astronomers considered them to be a distinct constellation, and they are mentioned by Hesiod's Works and Days,^[40]Homer's Iliad and Odyssey,^[41] and the Geoponica.^[42] The Pleiades was the most well-known "star" among pre-Islamic Arabs and so often referred to simply as "the Star" (an-Najm; النجم).^[43] Some scholars of Islam suggested that the Pleiades are the "star" mentioned in Surah An-Najm ("The Star") in the Quran.^[44]

On numerous cylinder seals from the beginning of the first millennium BC, M45 is represented by seven points, while the Seven Gods appear, on low-reliefs of Neo-Assyrian royal palaces, wearing long open robes and large cylindrical headdresses surmounted by short feathers and adorned with three frontal rows of horns and a crown of feathers, while carrying both an ax and a knife, as well as a bow and a quiver.^[45]

 

As noted by scholar Stith Thompson, the constellation was "nearly always imagined" as a group of seven sisters, and their myths explain why there are only six.^[46] Some scientists suggest that these may come from observations back when Pleione was farther from Atlas and more visible as a separate star as far back as 100,000 BC.^{[47]  "}

 

^{VERY curious because several Australian Aboriginal cultures hold the same story}

"

The Star Dreaming story of the Seven Sisters is one of the most widely distributed ancient stories amongst Aboriginal Australia. The songline for this story covers more than half the width of the continent, from deep in the Central Desert out to the west coast. The songline travels through many different language groups and different sections of the narrative are recognised in different parts of the country.

The story relates to the journey of the seven sisters that make up the star cluster known as the Pleiades, in the constellation Taurus. Mythological stories of the Pleiades also cross many other cultures outside Australia – the story also appears in ancient Greek mythology. Observed from central Australia, the Pleiades star group rises above the horizon soon after sunset and keeps a low trajectory above the horizon. Perhaps for this reason this relatively small star cluster takes on extra importance, as it appears to launch from the earth’s surface and make its journey in close proximity to the land. "

 

more at

 

https://japingkaaboriginalart.com/articles/star-dreaming-seven-sisters/

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, it is extremely intriguing. I have watched some Graham Hancock, and I know many consider him a loon. I’ll tell you why he appeal to me tho: he doesn’t say this is how it happened, but points out inconsistencies about the mainstream narrative, and urges us to at least consider alternative models. Some of the things he shows, is undoubtedly hard to fit with the narrative of 6.000 years ago people in the Fertile Crescent 🌙 invented this amazing technology of harvesting grains. This gave people free time, that they used to make art and do math and write literature, and ever since then civilization have progressed and given the savages access to the fruits of civilsations, like hot dogs and freedom of religion, and know we are at the peak. The peak of course being 21th century white people.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

A little random, @Nungali, but I’d like to hear your thoughts on this. All cultures have concepts of spirits or supernatural beings, no? Angels, jinns, dwarves and elves and gnomes, zombies, big foot, whatever. Today we have a lore about aliens. 

To what degree this is a myth or not, I am not sure, but two things about the first encounter between the Spanish and Indians fascinates me. It is claimed that the Indians simply couldn’t see the ship. Also, that they interpret men riding horses as one creature: half man, half horse. IF this is indeed true, you’d think it is because they simply had no framework to understand what they were looking at, no, so they «saw» it the way that made the most sense to them?

 

I wonder, do you think all these might be different cultural interpretations of the same… phenomema? That is, something that we can’t quite comprehend, so it sort of manifests in accordance to the culture and time? If you are chistian, you encounter angels. If you live in the Forrest of Northern Europe, you see elves. If you live in the modern, technological, space and future orienented era, you see aliens. 
 

 

[Nungali]

  On 12/14/2024 at 10:56 PM, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

A little random, @Nungali, but I’d like to hear your thoughts on this. All cultures have concepts of spirits or supernatural beings, no? Angels, jinns, dwarves and elves and gnomes, zombies, big foot, whatever. Today we have a lore about aliens. 

 

Ahhh ... one of my favourite subjects !

 

Medieval  people , harassed by religionists of the time  often depicted  being uplifted by angels or interfered with by demons . Modern people harassed by science  ( )   ; some report   good or bad aliens  ..... abducted and have weird things done to them . At one stage , aliens seemed very interested in our bottoms .  

 

  20 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

To what degree this is a myth or not, I am not sure, but two things about the first encounter between the Spanish and Indians fascinates me. It is claimed that the Indians simply couldn’t see the ship. Also, that they interpret men riding horses as one creature: half man, half horse. IF this is indeed true, you’d think it is because they simply had no framework to understand what they were looking at, no, so they «saw» it the way that made the most sense to them?

 

... as we still do

 

Early account of Aboriginals observing  a ship coming up the coast , exploring the 'new land ' .   

'  We saw clouds at at sea, moving along  (sails ) under them was  an upturned shell,  like an island , it had some trees on it  (masts ) then a water insect came out of it and walked across the water  ( a long boat with oars ) it came up onto the beach and men got out of it !  '

 

 

 

  20 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

 

I wonder, do you think all these might be different cultural interpretations of the same… phenomema? That is, something that we can’t quite comprehend, so it sort of manifests in accordance to the culture and time? If you are chistian, you encounter angels. If you live in the Forrest of Northern Europe, you see elves. If you live in the modern, technological, space and future orienented era, you see aliens. 
 

 

 

 

You got it !    This book is a must for nutting this all out  and guess what ? Surprise !    I have talked endlessly about it before   (including to you )   ;  to explain the connection ;

 

In it Harpur about exactly this ; he  writes about a little experiment ; someone takes the ghist of a story ;  people are travelling through the forest , they come into an area that 'feels' different , it has an 'energy' and they feel charged or  excited or 'prickly' ('goosebumps', hair 'standing on end ' )   a light appears in the sky and descends . It is like a  glassy or watery sphere and a figure can vaguely be sen inside it . The strange feeling rises and then different things seem to happen to the different people witnessing . Later they 'come out of it ' and it seems for some there has been some 'lost' time or a time discrepancy .

 

the description was shown to people from various cultures  and they all knew what it was  

 

' To be sure ... to be sure ... twas the fairy people again  , they are always doing that . '

 

' This was obviously  another appearance of the Virgin Mary '

 

' Typical manifestation of the Queen of the Witches , she is non-corporeal '

 

'Classic UFO encounter of the third kind ! '

 

The people that the story originally came from where happy about thir expereince , they felt they had communication with their ancestors.

 

review ;

" First, the book revels in the phenomena and manifestations which fascinate children, mystics, dreamers and anoraked eccentrics, but which proper science and serious inquiry will not touch. We are invited to take seriously and think deeply about alien visitations and abductions, lake monsters, Bigfoot (or is it bigfeet?), grey ladies, faerie folk, lights in the sky, little people and a glorious cast of absolute weirdoes from out there or in here. Second, Harpur finds in all of this a profound insight into the nature of reality, and what it is to be human. That insight is unsettling and disturbing. ...

Those encounters in our age are likely to be with alleged aliens, large or small, but bear uncanny resemblances to the age-old encounters with faerie folk, spirits, and other manifestations of different places and other times.... The standard response to all this is to argue either that it is all in us, in the form of persistent patterns of hallucination or madness; or the projection of archetypal patterns onto reality. Alternatively, the phenomena are taken seriously as being evidence of something really out there in the physical world, as aliens visiting the Earth, or prehistoric creatures living in deep cold lakes etc. Harpur pursues a different, and more challenging line. What is at stake, he suggests, is the nature of reality itself.

     With Jung, Harpur argues that these are phenomena of the psyche, but that psyche is of the world, not just of us as individuals. Indeed, our much cherished individual selves and psyches may be no more than embodiments of that world-soul (rediscovered in our age as the goddess Gaia). The phenomena in which the book rejoices may be appearances to us of its ancient inhabitants. They appear in different forms to match changing cultural expectations and concerns. An appearance of the Goddess becomes an appearance of the Blessed Virgin Mary, becomes a woman with golden hair emerging from her spacecraft. The mistake, he suggests, is to deny and repress these manifestations, since the repressed returns, pathologically and dangerously, if separated from a context of meaning and belief. Harpur suggests that a function of these daimonic forces may now be to undermine a deadening and narrow scientific orthodoxy and world-view - the 'single vision' which Blake so deplored."

 

https://www.harpur.org/x1Daimonic.htm

 

 

 

https://www.essentiafoundation.org/seeing-things-the-daimonic-nature-of-reality/reading/

[Nungali]

how can i resist

 

 

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

  On 12/15/2024 at 8:08 PM, Nungali said:

At one stage , aliens seemed very interested in our bottoms .

Haha yes, and it all took place in the no lands of America. «IM NOT GAY»

«Early account of Aboriginals observing  a ship coming up the coast , exploring the 'new land ' .   

'  We saw clouds at at sea, moving along  (sails ) under them was  an upturned shell,  like an island , it had some trees on it  (masts ) then a water insect came out of it and walked across the water  ( a long boat with oars ) it came up onto the beach and men got out of it !  '» 

 

This could throw a lot of light on many stories of old, I am sure. No particular comes to mind, but I’ll remember this

 

«Second, Harpur finds in all of this a profound insight into the nature of reality, and what it is to be human»

Is love to know 

 

 

 «Second, Harpur finds in all of this a profound insight into the nature of reality, and what it is to be human.»

I feel disturbed enough as it is. Im ready for being told that that dwarf I made love to in a lake was a prehistoric creature.

 

 

«  With Jung, Harpur argues that these are phenomena of the psyche, but that psyche is of the world, not just of us as individuals.»

Familiar with sheldrake and morphic ressonance? https://www.sheldrake.org/research/morphic-resonance/introduction

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

  On 12/15/2024 at 8:08 PM, Nungali said:

people are travelling through the forest , they come into an area that 'feels' different , it has an 'energy' and they feel charged or  excited or 'prickly' ('goosebumps', hair 'standing on end ' )   a light appears in the sky and descends . It is like a  glassy or watery sphere and a figure can vaguely be sen inside it . The strange feeling rises and then different things seem to happen to the different people witnessing . Later they 'come out of it ' and it seems for some there has been some 'lost' time or a time discrepancy .

You know what… reminds me of basically every fairytale im familiar with.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

I’ll check the book, but I’d like to know, what do you think this «whatever it is» is?

[Nungali]

  On 12/15/2024 at 9:05 PM, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

You know what… reminds me of basically every fairytale im familiar with.

 

 One of the interesting aspects bought to focus by Harpur is the categorization of themes; nearly all cultures have some variety of the theme ;  'the big black dog , or hound ' ,  'the lake monster'  , 'the lady in the pool or lake'  ' the strange area of forest or wilderness',  ' the 'criptid' ' ,   etc .

[Nungali]

  On 12/15/2024 at 9:10 PM, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

I’ll check the book, but I’d like to know, what do you think this «whatever it is» is?

 

'Daimonic Reality ' .  Although I temper the veracity of reports more than Harpur does ... I see a human dynamic in there effecting reports and dont take a lot of it at face value  -  when investigated the stories sometimes dont match the facts of the reporting of the incident .  That aside , there is certainly something other than that going on .

 

EG ; the child abuse incidents in USA at one stage ;

 

1. A woman reports to police that strangers came to her place ,  claimed to be from child protective services  and a report of abuse had come in . Ae your children here , bring them out we want to see them .  She nearly did but then realised 'What the hell am I  doing ?'  . Who are they ?  I  have not even asked to see ID proof . The she realised she was either 'unthinking' or in some trance . She snapped out of it , demanded proof of ID . They got nervous acted strange and left .

 

2. More report of the same come in . Police are wondering now if its true , is a couple going around doing this ?

 

3. More reports , some at different locations at the same time . is it a gang ?

 

4. Ridiculous  amounts of reports start flooding in  . Impossible , its spreading like a wave  . is this 'copycat reporting ' (like 'copycat crime ) .

 

5.  Then at this stage , as sometimes happen , people start  doing it .  In this case only one person was ever apprehended .  He admitted that he did copy what he read in the media reports , the really wierd part is he could not explain WHY he did that and seemed confused himself about his own behavior .

 

6 . POOF !  Then it all vanishes in a puff of smoke , no more reports , no more incidents , finished .

 

Then the next one starts .

 

Hauntings , UFOs ,  'Men in Black' * ....  all sorts of things can follow this pattern.

 

* first stories , all over the place .  Then people 'pretending ' . Then eventually a movie . peoeple go to the movie dressed up as men in black . Then a movement starts to counter this 'evil'; 'Men in White'. They aadvertise for members on the internet . A cult starts ....

 

Poof !  Gone .  ( but the movies continue ) .

[Nungali]

  On 12/15/2024 at 8:45 PM, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

...

I feel disturbed enough as it is. Im ready for being told that that dwarf I made love to in a lake was a prehistoric creature.

...

 

 

Duuude !  Dont tell me I am going to have to report you to the RSPCA about that  'seal incident '   ! 

 

 

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

The man on the moon is an interesting one. Anyone done any research?

[Nungali]

  On 12/17/2024 at 10:24 PM, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

The man on the moon is an interesting one. Anyone done any research?

 

Eh ?  'The Man  IN the Moon '  ?    The Moon Man ?  or are we talking about the Moon landings ?

 

The first , I cant see . From here I see the Moon Bunny

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_rabbit

 

 

Many  ascribe a female or Goddess energy to the Moon

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang'e

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lunar_deities

 

The Moon Man  -  an aboriginal story  .... supposedly a kids story ! 

 

" You kids , stop staring at the the Moon , go to sleep .  The Moon man sees you staring at him  he will get angry !   He will come down here and stomp around  ,   HA HA HA !   *    and smash you with his club , kill you !  And if you dont believe me, I will take you to a place where it happened and you can see the smashed bones , all still around on the ground !  So, go to sleep !  "

 

* this part has a bit of added drama to it , it reminds me of the    part in  many stories  like  :   " I will huff , and I will puff and I will  BLOOOOOW   your house down ! "

 

The above seems a very strange story ; perhaps it is from interior ; sleeping under a wide expanse of stars  under a bright Moon , kids might want to 'stay up late '  .  here is a version I put on to the end of it    

 

" ...and smash you with his club , kill you !  And if you dont believe me, I will take you to a place where it happened and you can see the smashed bones , all still around on the ground !  So, go to sleep !   ...   because me and your mother want to have nookie  .  "

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

  On 12/17/2024 at 11:20 PM, Nungali said:

The Man  IN the Moon

Probally. We say mannen PÅ (on) the moon tho. I believe there is a unique Germanic version of this as well, due to the phrase being so common in these languages (as well as how well it flows), all though I am aware it exists elsewhere as well.

 

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

  On 12/17/2024 at 11:20 PM, Nungali said:

The above seems a very strange story

I mean, all old stories which we have lost the cultural connection to sound weirds.

[Nungali]

Sure , but what I mean is ..... well, I have a 'lady in the Moon' story that I made up and used to tell to little kids to send them off to sleep ; its calm , relaxing and 'hypnotic'   not terrifying  !

 

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

The solstice, evergreens, Thor and Himalaya

 

This is the latest addition to my home. It is a yule (= christmas) goat, a traditional symbol of fertility that has survived from pagan times till today (in Scandinavia). So, to understand how it relates to fertility, we need to take a look into mythology. 

 

Younger Edda, Gylvaginning, Thors trip to Utgard (relevent parts):

 

Thor (and Loke) was driving his chariot, driven by two goats, trough utgard (= outside the fence, literally). At evening, he came to a farmsted who gave him shelter for the night. At evening, Thor slaughtered the goats and prepered them for cooking. When done, they the offered their host, his wife and children to come join them. The boy was called Tjalve and the girl Roskva. Thor laid the skin of the goat out, and told the family to throw the remains in it. Tjalve broke the bone to access the marrow.

Next morning, Thor folded the skin together, raised his hammer (mjølnir) and hallowed the skin. The goats ressurected, but one of them was limbing. Having relized what had happened, Thor clenched his hammer in anger. Not much immigination is needed to imagine the fear of the farmer. His fear calmed him, and instead of their lives, he took their children as servants, who followed him ever since. 

 

Wholesome

But if I am to look for a moral of the story, I think it would be hospitality and reciproicity. 

 

Anyhow, this thread is about shared cultural motifs, so lets travel to the himalayas. Here, I qoute from the article:

 

Our distant relatives in himalaya 

 

Increadibly, the article was deemed racist due to the fact that there are blue eyed people in the himalayas, and was later removed. But trough internet archive ive digged it up again. It is in the spoiler below for those interrested.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Our distant relatives in himalaya
How come people in remote river valleys in the himalaya has an apperance similar to us?

A young, blue eyed boy from the Kalash tribe. In terms of appearance, the people here resemble us in Northern Europe.

Lars Reinholt Aas
23 June 2014 21:47
Last updated 20 August 2014

Viten is Aftenposten's programme for research and science, where researchers and professionals from all over the country contribute articles.

 

Young girl from the Kalash tribe Photo: Junaidrao/Creative Commons

 

Travellers visiting mountain villages in northwest Pakistan, eastern Afghanistan or the Indian Himalayas will be amazed at the appearance of the population. You'll meet children and adults with blue eyes and blonde hair, features you associate with completely different parts of the world. If a man from the Kalash tribe walked down Karl Johan in Western clothes, it would be difficult to distinguish him from an ethnic Norwegian. How is it that people living in remote river valleys in the Western Himalayas have an appearance that is apparently more similar to Northern Europe than to Central Asia? The answer to the riddle can be found in linguistics and in the origins of the Indo-European languages.

 

Pontic steppes
In his book ‘The History of Indo-European Languages’, linguist Ola Wikander explains how the similarities between the Indo-European languages indicate that there was a common source, a language that we now call ‘Proto-Indo-European’. Following this logic, there must also have been people who spoke this hypothetical language. The homeland of this mysterious group of people is still unknown, but the dominant theory places them on the Pontic steppes in southern Russia.

The homeland, often called the primordial homeland, was the springboard for the Indo-European migrations. Around 7000-5000 years ago, groups of people migrated westwards from their homeland into Europe. A common interpretation is that these people were the ancestors of the European Bronze Age population, and thus also the distant cultural ancestors of the later Norse culture in Scandinavia. Other groups from the same Indo-European people migrated to the south-east. Between 4,000 and 3,500 years ago, they crossed the Khyber Pass that connects Afghanistan and Pakistan. While the majority of the emigrants continued their migration down into the Indian subcontinent, some groups jumped ship and settled in the deep river valleys of the Western Himalayas.

It is in these river valleys that we meet again our blond and blue-eyed people. The so-called Dardic-speaking people who live in the same areas today originate from one of the earliest waves of migration. The high mountains and inhospitable climate have ensured that they have lived an isolated existence right up until modern times. As a result, both language and culture have been remarkably well preserved, and fragments of beliefs, rituals and traditions dating back thousands of years can be traced. As an extension of this, the question arises: Can we find similarities between their culture and ours, despite the huge time difference? Is there a bond between Scandinavia and the Himalayas that has survived for thousands of years as a result of a shared past on the Pontic steppes?

 

Linguistic and cultural similarities
The fact that there are linguistic similarities is almost self-evident, since we share the same linguistic root. However, it is both strange and fascinating to think that our Nordic word for urinating ‘mige’, which comes from the Norse ‘míga’, may share its origins with the Dardic ‘mingens’ or ‘megha’ meaning ‘urinating cloud’.

But there are similarities between the Norse and Dardic cultures beyond the linguistic ones. Let me give an example from the world of myth. One of the classic Norse stories tells of how Thor was out riding with his goats. In the evening, he sought shelter with a poor farmer. Thor slaughtered both goats, skinned them and boiled them. He invited the farmer's family to dinner, on one condition: They did not have to destroy the animal's legs, but put them back whole in the goatskin. And so they did, except for Tjalve, the farmer's son. He broke a femur to get to the marrow. When the meal was over, Thor lifted the hammer over the goatskin and the bucks stood up whole and alive. But one of them was limping badly on its hind leg. Thor realised what had happened, and as penance he took his son Tjalve and daughter Roskva, who have followed him ever since.

 

The Norse myth has a parallel in the Himalayas: A traditional Dardic story tells of a meeting between a hunter and the deities on the mountain. The gods invited the hunter to their home. A mountain goat was slaughtered in the hunter's honour, and he was given part of the femur. When they had finished eating, the hunter broke open the femur to eat the marrow of the animal. The gods were outraged and shouted: ‘Don't destroy the bones!’. The hunter had no choice but to replace the broken bone with a twig. After the meal, the bones of the mountain goat were gathered together in the goatskin, as we know from the myth of Thor and Tjalve, and the animal rose again, alive as before. It's hard to imagine that there isn't a connection between the Norse myth and the Dardic story. Perhaps the two myths share a common starting point, a primordial myth, in the same way that the languages share a common linguistic tribe?

 

The fertility tree
Lines can also be drawn between traditional European customs and Dardic traditions. In our European culture, for example, the origins of the Christmas tree are still relatively unknown. The Christmas tree tradition, as we know it today, probably originated during the early German Renaissance in the 16th or 17th century. It is also assumed that the custom has an older, pre-Christian background: Trees and shrubs that don't lose their green leaves in winter symbolised life-giving powers and fertility, a symbolism we know from Norse sources.

Veggmaleri fra Kalash-dalen. Foto: <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/zeshan/">Muhammed Zeeshan</a> / <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/">Creative Commons BY 2.0</a>

 

Similar beliefs can be found among the Dardic population in the Western Himalayas today. Here, juniper trees are regarded as one of the purest and most sacred substances in existence. The growth is used in a number of purification rituals, including during the winter solstice festival, Chaumos, also known as Chitrimas. During the celebrations, juniper trees are painted on the walls of houses, symbolising and expressing a wish for fertility in the coming year. Since juniper trees don't lose their leaves during the cold months, their growth is used as fodder for livestock during the winter. As a result of these qualities, the conifer has become invaluable to the Dardic population and is considered one of the culture's most important fertility symbols, so it is not impossible that our European Christmas tree tradition and the sacred status of the juniper tree in the Western Himalayas share a common origin, although this source must lie several thousand years back in time.

 

Common cultural heritage
In the same way that the Indo-European language has spread with human migrations, legends, traditions and customs have followed the migrations to both east and west. Despite the enormous time difference, some cultural fragments have survived, fragments that allow us to draw a line from Scandinavia to the Himalayas. The people living in the deep mountain valleys, still telling myths and practising rituals that are thousands of years old, provide us with a unique opportunity to investigate a period in our prehistory that is still unknown. Further interdisciplinary research in this stunning area of the Western Himalayas will undoubtedly reveal other similarities and increase our understanding of our shared Indo-European cultural heritage.
 

https://web-archive-org.translate.goog/web/20211201064857/https://www.aftenposten.no/viten/i/K2n5/vaare-fjerne-slektninger-i-himalaya?_x_tr_sl=no&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

 

Relevant passages qouted:

 

  Quote

The answer to the riddle can be found in linguistics and in the origins of the Indo-European languages.

(...)

Pontic steppes
In his book ‘The History of Indo-European Languages’, linguist Ola Wikander explains how the similarities between the Indo-European languages indicate that there was a common source, a language that we now call ‘Proto-Indo-European’. Following this logic, there must also have been people who spoke this hypothetical language. The homeland of this mysterious group of people is still unknown, but the dominant theory places them on the Pontic steppes in southern Russia.
(...)

The Norse myth has a parallel in the Himalayas: A traditional Dardic story tells of a meeting between a hunter and the deities on the mountain. The gods invited the hunter to their home. A mountain goat was slaughtered in the hunter's honour, and he was given part of the femur. When they had finished eating, the hunter broke open the femur to eat the marrow of the animal. The gods were outraged and shouted: ‘Don't destroy the bones!’. The hunter had no choice but to replace the broken bone with a twig. After the meal, the bones of the mountain goat were gathered together in the goatskin, as we know from the myth of Thor and Tjalve, and the animal rose again, alive as before. It's hard to imagine that there isn't a connection between the Norse myth and the Dardic story. Perhaps the two myths share a common starting point, a primordial myth, in the same way that the languages share a common linguistic tribe?

(...)
The fertility tree
Lines can also be drawn between traditional European customs and Dardic traditions. In our European culture, for example, the origins of the Christmas tree are still relatively unknown. The Christmas tree tradition, as we know it today, probably originated during the early German Renaissance in the 16th or 17th century. It is also assumed that the custom has an older, pre-Christian background: Trees and shrubs that don't lose their green leaves in winter symbolised life-giving powers and fertility, a symbolism we know from Norse sources.
(...)
Similar beliefs can be found among the Dardic population in the Western Himalayas today. Here, juniper trees are regarded as one of the purest and most sacred substances in existence. The growth is used in a number of purification rituals, including during the winter solstice festival, Chaumos, also known as Chitrimas. During the celebrations, juniper trees are painted on the walls of houses, symbolising and expressing a wish for fertility in the coming year. Since juniper trees don't lose their leaves during the cold months, their growth is used as fodder for livestock during the winter. As a result of these qualities, the conifer has become invaluable to the Dardic population and is considered one of the culture's most important fertility symbols, so it is not impossible that our European Christmas tree tradition and the sacred status of the juniper tree in the Western Himalayas share a common origin, although this source must lie several thousand years back in time.

 

A lot could be written about evergreens, fertility and the like. One myth Id like to highlight, is the death of Baldur.

 

As Ive written about this before, ill just throw it in a spoiler.

 

The death of Baldur

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The death of Baldur is one of the more famous stories of the Eddas. Baldur had a dream about his death, and when Odin and Freya (his parrents), got to know about this, traveled far and wide and asked every stone, plant, river, animal and an all other beings to promise not to harm him. They all agreed.

 

As Baldr now had become immortal, the gods made a game out of throwing things at him. Loki (trickster and a jotun, but never the less a god) disguised himself, as tricksters do, and asked Freya: did everything promise not to harm him? To witch she responded yes, everything but the mistletoe, but why worry about something so small and insignificant? Loki, still in disguise, approached the blind god Hothr and gave him an arrow with the tip of a mistletoe, and invited him to join the game. The blind god fired his bow, and Baldr died.

 

All beings where in great distress, because they knew that the death marked the (beginning) of the end, ragnarrok. Fimbulvinter (the great winter, lasting for three seasons) set in. The sun disappears, laws and morals falls away. The struggle of survival. Men starve, brothers fight brothers. The forces of utgard march against the Asgard, and mankind joins the battle as well. The midgard serpent and Thor fights each other, leaving both dead. Fenrir swallows Odin and his men, the einherjar (those who died in battle and went to valhalla). All giants, gods and men die in this battle.

 

The world is submerged in water. Baldr, now in the underworld ruled by Lokis daughter Hel, promised to realise him on the condition that the whole world. Lif and Lifthrasir, destined to survive Ragnarrok, ventured out in time and went on to populate the earth. They worshipped Balder as their main god. Now, there are various accounts, a lot of unknown elements and also errors in my retteling of it, but i think its pretty cool. The brave god of beauty, associated with spring, dies on the hands of a blind men, tricked by a Loki and killed by an overlooked/insignificant plant. When the god of easter dies, the long winter sets in, and all hell breaks loose. The world cries, hell sets loose and both the forces of evil and good is killed. Two humans remain, life, and their main deity is the god of beauty and spring himself.

 

Ragnarrok Translated by Jackson Crawford(Völuspá Stanzas 43-56).

  Reveal hidden contents

  Reveal hidden contents

 

---

Fenrir howls terribly

before the doors to Hel;

the wolf will break its bonds

and run.

I know much wisdom,

I see deep in the future,

all the way to Ragnarok,

a dark day for the gods.

 

Brothers will fight one another

and kill one another,

cousins will break peace

with one another,

the world will be a hard place to live in.

It will be an age of adultery,

an age of the axe, an age of the sword,

an age of storms, an age of wolves,

shields will be cloven.

Before the world sinks into the sea,

there will be no man left

who is true to another.

 

The giants are at play,

and the gods’ fate is kindled

at the blast

of Gjallarhorn:

Heimdall blows that horn hard,

holds it high aloft,

Odin speaks

with Mimir’s head.

 

The old tree sighs

when the giant shakes it—

Yggdrasil still stands,

but it trembles.

 

Fenrir howls terribly

before the doors to Hel;

the wolf will break its bonds

and run.

I know much wisdom,

I see deep in the future,

all the way to Ragnarok,

a dark day for the gods.

 

Hrym advances from the east

with a shield before him,

and the Midgard-serpent

is in a monstrous rage.

The serpent beats the waves,

and the eagle screams eagerly,

splitting corpses with its pale beak.

Naglfar, the giants’ ship, is released.

 

That ship sails from the east,

bearing giants

over the sea,

and Loki is its captain.

The giants are coming

together with Fenrir,

and Loki too is with them

on that voyage.

 

What news from the gods?

What news from the elves?

All Jotunheim is roaring,

the Aesir are in counsel,

and the dwarves,

creatures of the mountains,

tremble by their doors of stone.

Have you learned enough yet, Allfather?

 

Surt comes from the south

with a bright light in his hand,

yes, the sun shines upon

the sword in his grasp.

The mountains collapse,

the trolls fall,

men walk the road to Hel,

and the skies divide above.

 

Then comes

the second sorrow of Frigg,

when Odin goes

to fight the wolf,

and Frey goes to fight the giant Surt.

Then Odin, Frigg’s husband,

will fall to Fenrir.

 

Then comes the great

son of Odin, Vithar,

to fight, to avenge

his father on the wolf.

He shoves his sword

into the mouth of Fenrir,

all the way to the heart,

and thus Odin is avenged.

Then Thor comes,

Earth’s son,

Odin’s son,

to fight the Midgard-serpent—

the protector of Midgard

will kill that serpent in his rage.

But all humankind

will die out of the world

when Thor falls

after only nine steps,

struck down by the venom

of the honorless serpent.

 

The sun turns black,

the earth sinks into the sea,

the bright stars

fall out of the sky.

Flames scorch

the leaves of Yggdrasil,

a great bonfire

reaches to the highest clouds.

 

Fenrir howls terribly

before the doors to Hel;

the wolf will break its bonds

and run.

I know much wisdom,

I see deep in the future,

all the way to Ragnarok,

a dark day for the gods.

 

Notes: 

• Baldr and Easter: The association with Easter or spring is a modern interpretation and not part of the original Norse sources. Baldr is linked to light and purity, but not explicitly to seasonal changes.
• Líf and Lífþrasir Worshipping Baldr: While Baldr returns to rule the new world, the idea of them worshipping him as a primary deity is not supported by the sources.
• The Sun's Disappearance: The sun's disappearance during Fimbulvetr is not explicitly mentioned in connection to Baldr's death in the Eddas but is part of the broader apocalyptic imagery of Ragnarok.
• Jesus Comparison: While thematic parallels exist, Baldr's story is rooted in a different cultural and mythological framework.

Ending

We could continue forever, but I think this picture captures it all (evergreen, christmas, goat) perfectly:

'Old Christmas', riding a yule goat; 1836 illustration by Robert Seymour

 

Under the puritan tyranny of the 1600s, christmas was outlawed due to being to pagan. 

 

If anybody bothered reading, thank you.

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2024 by Sir Darius the Clairvoyent