Transcending Transcendence - Redux

[Nungali]

18 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

If only Daniel were here to make all this clear.  

 

here you go ;

 

 

 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

How does anything bind the Immanent? 

The ishavasya Upanishad states - "Ishavasyam Idam Sarvam" - That permeates the whole world (Isha/God/Self) - that is Immanence. 

 

well I meant things that spring from the Self are bound by the laws of things...even though the Self is ultimately immanent within.

(thus my use of the term was not quite right)

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

here you go ;

 

 

 

 

um, that's all Greek to me...

[Mark Foote]

Is Daniel ex-communicated, for the nonce?

T'was not so much the topic, as Daniel that I was concerned with losing.

 

He was pretty clear that he didn't respect authority based on transmission. Can you blame him!  From a post I'm working on for my own site:

 

Gautama refused to name a successor (DN 16, PTS vol. ii p 107). His advice was to go by the words of the teacher rather than any claim to authority, to compare the instructions of a teacher to the sermons Gautama himself had given and to the rules of the order that Gautama himself had laid down (DN 16 PTS vol. ii pp 133-136).

At the same time, activity solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness, the sign of the fourth concentration, has been conveyed by demonstration in some branches of Buddhism for millennia. The transmission of a central part of the teaching through such conveyance, and the certification of that transmission by the presiding teacher, is regarded by some schools as the only guarantee of the authenticity of a teacher.

In the days before his demise, Gautama gave one final piece of advice to his followers on who to trust:
 

Look not for refuge to any one besides yourselves. And how… is (one) to be a lamp unto (oneself), a refuge unto (oneself), betaking (oneself) to no external refuge, holding fast to the Truth as a lamp, holding fast as a refuge to the Truth, looking not for refuge to any one besides (oneself)?

Herein, … (one) continues, as to the body, so to look upon the body that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world. [And in the same way] as to feelings… mind… mental states, (one) continues so to look upon each that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world.

(DN 16; tr. PTS Vol II p 108; Horner’s “body, feelings, mind, and mental states” substituted for Rhys Davids’ “body, feelings, moods, and ideas”)

 

 

Like the man said:

 

When you arrive at last at towering up like a wall miles high, you will finally know that there aren’t so many things.

 

(“Zen Letters: the Teachings of Yuanwu”, tr. Thomas Cleary, p 83)

 

 

 

 

[stirling]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

OK  but I would ask  (rhetorically   ie .   when being an enlightened master     )    When this state is realized  where is 'Self' ... there is no distinction so any idea or awareness or experience of 'S/self is gone .   I understand what you mean , I hope, by that state  but is 'Self' seems a strange word to use for it . 

 

Unsurprisingly I prefer the Buddhist paradigm on this one which is that all appearances in consciousness are empty of separateness (or "empty"), meaning that everything you are used to defining as a separate object, cars, people, XGFs, demons, annoying Buddhists, all lack any true reality of their own, and arise within the wholeness of awareness. To me, "Self" is awkward in that it implies (to me) that there is some kind of ownership, or an "I" that is somehow separate from anything else. When you actually read the texts it is obvious that it doesn't mean to imply this (to me anyway)... I am sure that something is lost in the translation. 

 

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

(now it doesnt work again  again ! )  Anyway, yes, but not just in 'meditation' . 

 

Right! It is actually happening all the time underneath our thinking mind.

 

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

I am still 'urking' at the term , I cant see that as "Self" ... I agree  with you on its limited use here . No doubt its an issue with English, I am sure your tradition has a better term in another language for this .  ... other than just 'Brahma ' ?    I suppose 'the state of Brahama   might satisfy me .

 

I agree with you. Right. In Buddhism the field that all phenomena arise from is actually called the "dharmakaya" (which is actually the emptiness itself). I prefer it as an explanation, but really it is just another conceptual abstraction - not a reality to get all excited about, or hung up on.

 

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

  and that is why I dont have an electricity bill !  And that is why I have devoted nearly all my early life to get into the situation I can  ( a fair bit ) where those things dont occupy me .     Oh, I got plenty of distractions of course !  But  I find  the more of them I have eliminated  , the more I can 'dissolve into Nuit ' .   But soon they will all go away and my dissolution will be complete .   

 

Still , life has its necessities ;     I have even managed to  arrange things so that the distraction of chopping wood and carrying water has been eliminated .   But then I got tied up with having to fix the chainsaw and the water pump    .  But  further beyond this illusion ,  I know , when maintaining the 'state'  (of your 'Self' )    chopping the wood and carrying the water  (or spraying it around with the hose  ) is , as well  'in the continuum ' .    I suppose the further state is to accept the pump and chainsaw into that as well  

 

Yes! Good for you. For a number of years I kicked tires on the idea of going from doing all of the retreats to actually living at a monastery, but over time realized that those people found things to argue about as much as anyone or more... AND that being confronted by what catches you (angers, depresses, makes you anxious, etc.) is what creates progress. The dharmakaya (for lack of a better word) is in fact a mirror of all of your attachment and aversion. The way OUT is THROUGH! It isn't for everyone.

 

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

(and now the post breaking works again  )

 

Geeze... I thought it was just me. I think having that work consistently would be the single greatest upgrade this board could get.

 

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

Errrr .... ummm  ... yeah ,    I tend to see that in the  'others'  that keep  popping up and disturbing me  and wanting to know the answers to those questions  ... or ,  have their behavior  and words  indicate that but seem to believe something else is going on for them or with me .  And lately , boy has that one been manifesting  .    ( I think there is some intense Pluto stuff going on atm ? )

 

How fortunate.

 

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

That ?    You mean that Nungali chap that keeps posting on Daobums ?

 

Yeah... He's fun... but keep an eye on him, eh?

 

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

( Eg .  Last night , XGF from years back  turns up un announced . marvels at my little cabin abode  (she used to live here  , but I done a LOT of work on it since then   and , to boot, just finished a tiresome  4 day clean out , de clutter ,  scrubbed and washed all the woodwork and then oiled it  ( its all local woods , stone glass , old retro local cedar furniture  etc .  ) cleaned all the soft furnishings ,... so she was very impressed   (but, is that  alchohol I can smell on her breath ?  )   sat back in one of  the old retro lounge chairs  and ....

 

projectile vomited  .

 

yes, some people can be a 'distraction' .

 

Hahahahaha! I found that a wife tends to sort all of that sort of nonsense out, but that has its own interesting complications. 

 

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

Anyway , time to go out side now , sun is up , spray some water around with the hose  , and water my  garden and plants / "Self" , feed the fish/"Self"  and  give the possom/"Self" a spoon of honey and a pat .  

 

I will get back to you after I have transcended transcendence  and 'realize'  " I  " am also my XGF   ( and 'her' projectile vomit as well, I suppose ) .

 

_/\_

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

Is Daniel ex-communicated, for the nonce?  ...

 

 

 

It appears you have 'selective awareness'   ... dont worry

 

It IS transcendable .

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

He was pretty clear that he didn't respect authority based on transmission. Can you blame him! 

It was not so much that he didn’t respect authority based on transmission, but demonstrated a lack of respect in general. 

[stirling]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Is Daniel ex-communicated, for the nonce?

T'was not so much the topic, as Daniel that I was concerned with losing.

 

Daniel will not be darkening our doors. He internet/board stalked me when he took exception to me for reasons unknown, peppering every thread I was posting on with twisted personal history, mischaracterization, out and out fabrication. When I asked the last group of admins for help they volunteered to take action, but I asked them to be lenient, hoping he might be kinder and gentler. I just wanted it to stop. He then got into an insulting and angry altercation with Dwai and was banned for a few weeks. At the time he could have been banned permanently, but we decided against it. Daniel had plenty of opportunities to make a different choice, but his anger or whatever is going on  got the best of him. This time was his last chance. Yes, it is unfortunate. I felt he had some interesting perspective to offer, but it was always HIS choice to make.

 

No-one doing admin here is being paid - it isn't a road to fame or fortune. I think of it as a way to give back here for this fantastic resource we are afforded. Doing the job without being personally abused doesn't seem unreasonable does it? Who would do it under such conditions? I wouldn't.

 

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

He was pretty clear that he didn't respect authority based on transmission. Can you blame him! 

 

I don't either. I've sat with a few Soto Zen teachers who didn't know what they were talking about. No-one can possibly transmit what actually matters. Authority comes from prajna paramita. Daniels problem wasn't with authority, it was with anything do with non-duality... ironic on a Daoist bulletin board, but...

[old3bob]

 

transmission is a real deal, and unless one has been through the experience  they won't know...the  true guru is a conduit for Self/Grace that sees/knows and reaches through and within without egotism. 

Edited 20 hours ago by old3bob

[stirling]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

transmission is a real deal, and unless one has been through the experience  they won't know...the  true guru is a conduit for Self/Grace that sees/knows and reaches through and within without egotism. 

 

Are you saying that a true guru could walk through the world and just enlighten people? 

[old3bob]

true guru does not do anything per ego it is the Self within and working through true guru that may...

[forestofclarity]

10 minutes ago, old3bob said:

true guru does not do anything per ego it is the Self within and working through true guru that may...

 

Do you follow a teacher/tradition, old3bob? 

[old3bob]

4 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

Do you follow a teacher/tradition, old3bob? 

 

why do you ask?  I do recognize the Upanishads and some related teachings as spiritually inspired and revealing.  (shared and handed down by Self realized Rishi's or some Yogi's that became so...)  

Edited 17 hours ago by old3bob

[Sherman Krebbs]

I always thought transcendentalism was a pretty silly.  I mean who other than an overentitled rich kid can quit his job, move into his friends cabin by a serene lake in the woods for two years and sit around watching ants all day.  Then he writes a book about it shaming others for having to work 9 to 5 just to keep food on the table.  What a jerk.  Reminds me of the record "we are only in it for the money" by Zappa.  Transcendence is for  people who go to love-ins to sit around and play bongos in the dirt, imnsho. 

[forestofclarity]

9 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

why do you ask? 

 

Because I don't really understand your position or what you find authoritative.  

[forestofclarity]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Are you saying that a true guru could walk through the world and just enlighten people? 

 

Interestingly, I do think the presence of a teacher may invoke meditative states by temporarily stilling the mind and potentially allowing additional spiritual states to arise. I also think a lot of us then confuse these temporary states with permanent realization, and thereby miss the point and try to recreate the state. But I do think it is easier to obtain clear knowledge when the mind is relatively stilled in this way. 

 

For better or worse, this happening or not happening does tend to color my judgments. 

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

 

Because I don't really understand your position or what you find authoritative.  

 

well to begin with one could read the Upanishads and related material's if they haven't already?  

 

I'm only a fortunate guest of parts of Hinduism,  (aka Sanatana Dharma) while I believe Dwai and some others could give you much more information besides the massive volume that could be found in books, sects or schools, and on the internet !  And if you are a Buddhist I'd say that imo only so much correlation can be done along the lines of common ground since after that there are key difference's.

 

Btw, understanding the position of another is ok or diplomatic but understanding one's own position is of course more important.

Edited 14 hours ago by old3bob