Transcendence vs Integration

[Bindi]

20 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

My consistent opinion on it is there is a big difference between  ' sexual abuse'  and 'apparent sexual obsession' .

However both clearly represent an imbalance  so one would hope he was  a 'practitioner' of yoga , but not a 'teacher '  of yoga .

 

- please excuse my 'obsession' with semantics  .... its my Mercury  ;   ' the root of conflict is often miscommunication '.

I was just using  Freud to make a point - dwai said I practiced dream yoga because I work with dreams, but my method is vastly different to dream yoga’s method. So I asked if Freud, Jung and the Tsimshian people also practiced dream yoga according to him. To me there is a word in common, ‘dream’, but the method used means one is yoga, and one is psychotherapy for want of a better word. 
 

Freud became an issue because dwai discounted him on the grounds of sexual obsession, hence my example of a yogi with an apparent sexual obsession. Yes both are imbalanced, but that wasn’t my underlying point. 

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, blue eyed snake said:

interesting thread

 

Never had a spiritual practice apart from some years of intensive chigung with a teacher that did not tell me anything but: you just practice, you're doing well.

 

then later reading up on things and recognized in hindsight what terms could be stuck to some things that happened. Although @stirling  tends to rub me the wrong way he is absolutely right regarding nonduality

 

But @Bindi is also right when she says it could be a form of thinking/ a new story to believe in. I've known people like that.

 

for me nonduality is a once felt reality that nobody ever told me about, at least not in those terms just the vague talk of newagey people in my younger years. Remembering a thread here on nonduality and thinking, hey, they're talking about what happened to me

 

So after the lightning insight I went back to storytelling, but now being aware of it being just that, the building of a new story because the ego needs that story... (in fact, ego ( as I see it) is that story.)
 

 

This makes me think of an experience I once had of thoughts suddenly being ‘unstuck’, it was brought on after being in emotional pain and it was a huge relief because I had been very entangled in my thoughts and emotions at that point. It too stopped, like your nondual experience, it only lasted a couple of days, so I fully agree we can have these experiences, perhaps in moments of severe stress, but what these experiences mean is something we may disagree about, in fact we most likely would disagree. I see it as a pressure valve that gave me some relief in the moment, but not a state that I needed to re-engineer, for example via meditation or whatever. I suspect it might be one of the outcomes of my journey, but only one aspect, and not the method of my journey. I don’t discount your experience at all, but I do question how you interpret that experience as part of the whole. I question whether disidentifying with the story before being ‘whole’ is beneficial or if it actually leads to splintering of wholeness. I don’t mean to offend you, I’m just trying to explain my position. 
 

1 hour ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

through the years/decades the story changes

 

After entering a sort of next stage in my life it becomes more usual to see through the stories of others (at last...)

so when someone triggers 'me' /my story it becomes clear that person reacts from his or her story, has nothing to do with 'me'  so i can let go and try to react in such a way that he or she does not get triggered and stuck more in his or her story.

We're here to help each other after all.

 

---

then about karma, it's not something i should talk about because I am much too unlearned in that department.

Lately the thought arises that the reason we get reborn time after time is because deeply stuck emotions travel with with us life after life. There have been several memories of former lives and played back it can be seen they all were about intense emotions, deep fear, feeling of guilt, aggressive lust and anger.

 

 

I have come to the same conclusion about karma. 

[johndoe2012]

I had a online meeting with stirling some time ago where we discussed how he suggests a practice could be. And I started practicing daily according to his suggestion. 

 

During the meeting I felt so much compassion in my heart and afterwards I had an experience of enlightened mind 'appearing' which took away 90% of pain in the heart.

 

This pain had been very difficult to dissolve using other methods. 

 

After that experience I leaned into trusting reality more as a compassionate friend. 

 

Today I had an experience of fear related to a deep seated trauma and quickly I asked myself 'is it true that I am in danger?' and enlightened mind appeared again and fear dissolved. 

 

Another fear appeared later same day with regards to the future and an outcome linked to the same trauma and I felt at ease and wishing everyone well no matter how the outcome turned out. 

 

Thanks stirling for the pointing 🥰

[johndoe2012]

On 29.12.2024 at 9:20 PM, Bindi said:

 

, add in compassion if you’re Buddhist which adds to karma because it is a conditioned intent.

 

 

 

Not sure about that. 

 

I don't consider myself a Buddhist although I sometimes use Buddhist methods and I remember being a Chinese Buddhist monk in a past life. 

 

Compassion makes my mind relax, alert, body calm. 

 

It takes effort in the beginning, that is true. 

[old3bob]

speaking of karma related things,  5 minutes of adharma could take 5 years or 5 lifetimes to work out or bring back too a clean slate...for there is no free (karma) lunch.  (although some cooks will help us clean up what is on our plates)

[stirling]

On 12/29/2024 at 6:58 PM, Bindi said:

All spiritual methods, including nondualism, are conceptual models that offer conceptual frameworks with specific goals. Proponents of nonduality very often seem to feel these methods lead to transformations that confirm their frameworks validity, and sometimes very quickly.

 

Sure. In my opinion paths, practices, models, traditions and religions are entirely conceptual and do not precipitate "awakening". It is very often dropping the methods and practices that creates the opening. Many traditions acknowledge this. One of my favorite quotes is:

 

Quote

“Gaining enlightenment is an accident. Spiritual practice simply makes us accident-prone.” - Shuryu Suzuki Roshi

 

While practices can clear the way, enlightenment is definitely post practice, post concept, post model, post tradition, or religion.

 

Quote

However, achieving a stated outcome, like nondual realisation, doesn’t necessarily prove the ultimate truth of that outcome. While nondual realisation may feel profound and internally coherent, it is not ipso facto absolute truth.

 

Only experience with it would allow you to decide either way.

 

Quote

You say “To end suffering, we need to see reality plainly as it is.” I agree, but reality as I see it is very different to reality as you see it. You are not automatically correct because you believe in your model and your transformation.

 

I can only talk about my experience. You are obviously free to do as you choose. It isn't any model I believe in, but rather my experience of this moment. 

 

Quote

I see nondual transformation as quite horrific, like turning my back on all the precious aspects of myself. In a dream this might be portrayed as someone in a cell with no light, no airflow, no food, locked away and ignored.

 

Sure. Conceptual ideas about it might sound scary. Your description does sound horrific. In reality it looks just like your life does now. 

 

Quote

I choose to act compassionately towards these aspects of myself and to work to make them healthy. Nonduality may claim that all aspects are included, nothing is being ignored, but what’s the value of including the crippled and restricted parts of myself in the rush to end my mental and emotional suffering as quickly as possible.

 

You should do as you are driven to do. If cobbling together your own path appeals, do it. I did the same, though it heavily leaned on Buddhism. In the end none of it was what I thought it would be... still isn't. 

 

A friend of mine asked, "what will happen to my "self" if I don't love it, or ignore it... doesn't it deserve love too". I understand the perspective that might give rise to such a question from one perspective. From another, it doesn't actually make any sense, since it doesn't really exist in the way that you might assume.

[dwai]

These “horrific scenarios” as outlined in a previous post point back to a “fear” that arose in my mind when I was deep in the process of self-inquiry several years ago. I think it is a pertinent point that all serious seekers should cogitate. 

It happened as I was listening to an especially moving piece of music. The thought arose, “the enjoyment of the beauty of music is an expression of the bliss that is the Self. If the separate-self drops, will I be able to experience bliss as I’m able to?”  
 

Will I be able to experience the sweetness of sugar if I become the sugar itself? 

 

The question itself is non-sequitur actually. The reason is, these fears arise when a clear understanding of the true nature of Self has not risen yet. In reality, nothing changes - only the fear and psychoses that are a consequence of mental agitation (and identity-preservation) disappear. 
 

What IS “freedom”, really? Is it the freedom to experience whatever/act however the mind desires?

 

Or is it to be completely natural, without the limitations of identifixation? 
 

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

....

 

A friend of mine asked, "what will happen to my "self" if I don't love it, or ignore it... doesn't it deserve love too". I understand the perspective that might give rise to such a question from one perspective. From another, it doesn't actually make any sense, since it doesn't really exist in the way that you might assume.

 

 

hang on .... I just had a 'realization'   ( I think    )

 

This above person, and perhaps some others , see 'non dual  awareness'  or  'state' as some how extinguishing the 'self'  ?

 

I have been  experiencing it as a (sort of )  'expansion '  ; like my  concept of 'self'  swelling, opening up and   a 'shell of separation' dissolving  (no, none of these words are 'right,' just the best I can manage atm ) .

 

I guess, having the opposite  feeling or expectation is   what some feel / fear  about death as well  ? 

 

No wonder they are resistant to the concept !    Thing  is eventually, it will not just be a concept  - we are all heading 'there' .

[Nungali]

58 minutes ago, dwai said:

These “horrific scenarios” as outlined in a previous post point back to a “fear” that arose in my mind when I was deep in the process of self-inquiry several years ago. I think it is a pertinent point that all serious seekers should cogitate. 

It happened as I was listening to an especially moving piece of music. The thought arose, “the enjoyment of the beauty of music is an expression of the bliss that is the Self. If the separate-self drops, will I be able to experience bliss as I’m able to?”  
 

Will I be able to experience the sweetness of sugar if I become the sugar itself? 

 

It seems you had a goal and worked towards it , but lacking the experience (at first )  you feared some of the results ?  For me it 'just happened to me' and it was associated  with / generated  'bliss' , so I suppose I never worried about loosing the 'bliss' in the first place  .

 

You  would realize that,  by now ,  it takes two to tango    .. that is to experience the sweetness of sugar  it takes the sugar and the taster      ... IMO  the whole reason for the idea of division in the first place  

 

The question itself is non-sequitur actually. The reason is, these fears arise when a clear understanding of the true nature of Self has not risen yet. In reality, nothing changes - only the fear and psychoses that are a consequence of mental agitation (and identity-preservation) disappear. 
 

What IS “freedom”, really? Is it the freedom to experience whatever/act however the mind desires?

 

On that level I would say freedom is an ability to   put the desiring mind in its rightful place and do its  proper work , and   not to go beyond that 'proper; boundary .

 

Or is it to be completely natural, without the limitations of identifixation? 

 

That certainly is going to give an amount of freedom .
 

 

 

[stirling]

18 minutes ago, Nungali said:

hang on .... I just had a 'realization'   ( I think    )

 

This above person, and perhaps some others , see 'non dual  awareness'  or  'state' as some how extinguishing the 'self'  ?

 

Definitely the "self" has states - "non-dual awareness" doesn't change and is always present, whether you have realization or not. The "self" is never extinguished, though it has much reduced footprint on the experience of being. The "self" is seen to be what it actually is, the story you tell about yourself. When you stop telling the story, it loses its potency and its importance diminishes. 

 

18 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I have been  experiencing it as a (sort of )  'expansion '  ; like my  concept of 'self'  swelling, opening up and   a 'shell of separation' dissolving  (no, none of these words are 'right,' just the best I can manage atm ) .

 

Even before realization, this happens more often than most people realize. Emptiness is present all the time, we simply fail to identify it most of the time. If you experienced it in this moment it would be wholly familiar to you. 

 

18 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I guess, having the opposite  feeling or expectation is   what some feel / fear  about death as well  ? 

 

I think of the fear of death being the fear that there is some "ending", just as the loss of the "self" would be. Not really possible, in my experience. 

 

18 minutes ago, Nungali said:

No wonder they are resistant to the concept !    Thing  is eventually, it will not just be a concept  - we are all heading 'there' .

 

[dwai]

21 minutes ago, Nungali said:

t seems you had a goal and worked towards it , but lacking the experience (at first )  you feared some of the results ?  For me it 'just happened to me' and it was associated  with / generated  'bliss' , so I suppose I never worried about loosing the 'bliss' in the first place  .

 

I think different minds deal with it in different ways. 

21 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

You  would realize that,  by now ,  it takes two to tango    .. that is to experience the sweetness of sugar  it takes the sugar and the taster      ... IMO  the whole reason for the idea of division in the first place  

To quote the old Daoist master (paraphrasing here) - “when the droplet of water merges with the ocean, it doesn’t lose itself, it becomes the ocean!” 

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Sure. In my opinion paths, practices, models, traditions and religions are entirely conceptual and do not precipitate "awakening". It is very often dropping the methods and practices that creates the opening. Many traditions acknowledge this. One of my favorite quotes is:

 

 

While practices can clear the way, enlightenment is definitely post practice, post concept, post model, post tradition, or religion.
 

 

Do you equate ‘modern’ nondual realisation with enlightenment?

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Only experience with it would allow you to decide either way.

 

 

I can only talk about my experience. You are obviously free to do as you choose. It isn't any model I believe in, but rather my experience of this moment. 

 

 

Sure. Conceptual ideas about it might sound scary. Your description does sound horrific. In reality it looks just like your life does now. 

 

 

You should do as you are driven to do. If cobbling together your own path appeals, do it. I did the same, though it heavily leaned on Buddhism. In the end none of it was what I thought it would be... still isn't. 

 

 

My path is ‘cobbled’ together by a wisdom that has access to the blueprints of my entire system across three levels, physical, subtle and causal. It’s an intrinsic wisdom perfectly designed for complete integration of these three levels. I am neither the driver, nor the cobbler, I’m just catching the bus. 

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

A friend of mine asked, "what will happen to my "self" if I don't love it, or ignore it... doesn't it deserve love too". I understand the perspective that might give rise to such a question from one perspective. From another, it doesn't actually make any sense, since it doesn't really exist in the way that you might assume.

I can conceive of many selves, my emotional self, my mental self, my kundalini self, my Atman/original spirit self, every one of these selves need to be attended to in differing ways. They all exist within the grip of karma and samskaras. Removing the karmic grip and samskaras doesn’t cause these selves to not exist, it just leaves them free to exist in unity with each other. Four healthy selves integrated. It is a very different vision to yours. 

[Bindi]

12 minutes ago, dwai said:

I think different minds deal with it in different ways. 

To quote the old Daoist master (paraphrasing here) - “when the droplet of water merges with the ocean, it doesn’t lose itself, it becomes the ocean!” 

I had a dream that encapsulates my end point as the “oceanriver.” There is the same ocean, but the river as “me” remains distinct. There’s a unity, but not a total dissolution, a coexistence but not a transcendence, a continuous flow rather than equilibrium. 
 

 

 

 

 

[Bindi]

48 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Definitely the "self" has states - "non-dual awareness" doesn't change and is always present, whether you have realization or not. The "self" is never extinguished, though it has much reduced footprint on the experience of being. The "self" is seen to be what it actually is, the story you tell about yourself. When you stop telling the story, it loses its potency and its importance diminishes. 

 

 

This ‘story you tell yourself’ sounds mostly like samskaras. I agree they have to go, I just prefer to destroy them from their roots, and remove them completely. This takes a lot longer than transcending them, but I gain thoroughness, as well as identification with whatever then remains. 
 

Non-identification with the story you tell about yourself is liberating, but it would irk me that the causes of those stories remain. On the other hand complete liberation on all levels I find very appealing. 

 

48 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Even before realization, this happens more often than most people realize. Emptiness is present all the time, we simply fail to identify it most of the time. If you experienced it in this moment it would be wholly familiar to you. 

 

 

I think of the fear of death being the fear that there is some "ending", just as the loss of the "self" would be. Not really possible, in my experience. 

 

 

 

[dwai]

25 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I had a dream that encapsulates my end point as the “oceanriver.” There is the same ocean, but the river as “me” remains distinct. There’s a unity, but not a total dissolution, a coexistence but not a transcendence, a continuous flow rather than equilibrium. 
 

 

 

 

 

How does the equation change if you consider both as being nothing apart from water? 

[Nungali]

49 minutes ago, dwai said:

I think different minds deal with it in different ways. 

 

I think it was matter of different processes . . .  if you read what I wrote carefully .

 

To quote the old Daoist master (paraphrasing here) - “when the droplet of water merges with the ocean, it doesn’t lose itself, it becomes the ocean!” 

 

And to paraphrase Nuit ;   ' The pain of division is nothing compared to the ecstasy of union '  or  'division is but a sauce to whet the appetite for the 'greater feast' .

 

[ "A Greater Feast is the Thelemic celebration of the death of an individual or individuals. Its designation as greater is derived from the understanding that Death is the crowning achivement of a life and reunites the Had of the Thelemite with the body of the goddess, Nuit."

 

-  considering 'Nuit' is an analogy of 'the all' ; the physical Universe  time / space continuum ...  the  circle without  circumference  where r =   ]

 

[Mark Foote]

On 12/30/2024 at 2:19 PM, old3bob said:

 

 not so for me and algebra, hard to get in and easy to lose.  (although i like trig)

 

Said the former, past-life Egyptian.

[Bindi]

11 minutes ago, dwai said:

How does the equation change if you consider both as being nothing apart from water? 

The river and the ocean are expressions of the same water, but expressed in different forms. The river reflects its journey, it doesn’t negate the value of the past, and remains dynamic in the present. Considering both as the same underlying water recognises the amazing value that my physical, subtle and causal bodies are capable of encapsulating and expressing, i don’t have to transcend them, instead there is a grand interplay between individuality and unity. 

 

 

[Mark Foote]

On 12/29/2024 at 3:32 PM, Bindi said:

There was one element that I haven’t referred to here, though I did refer to it many times years ago on the daobums. I did work exclusively with dreams for decades, but I also worked helping my family with their dreams including my mother’s dreams. A couple of decades of helping her work with her dreams kicked off her ability to see what was happening in both the subtle body and the physical body. This in turn led to her guiding me through the actions I needed to take to develop my lower and middle dantian and balance upper and lower forces, and she also was able to give me information on what was happening in my subtle channels, which was happening without her direction, it was just feedback. 
 

To make a long story short, I am led to believe from her seeing that clearing Ida and Pingala nadi’s with appropriate emotional and mental work leads to the natural waking of kundalini, which then uses the previously prepared dantians to sojourn in on her way up. I believe this is why my experience with kundalini is different to what seems to be offered in methods like kundalini yoga, for me kundalini has time and space to do everything she needs to do at various points and she remains cool while doing it, leaving nothing undone before she continues to rise, and not tearing me to bits in the process. My mother died a couple of years ago, but kundalini was already awake at that point, and my dreams have kept me informed about her movements from that point on. 
 

What I perceive as the “grip of karma”  I found in subtle body heart work that touched on the causal level, allowing kundalini to break karmas grip there before she returned to the subtle body. Just to be very clear, I haven’t finished this kundalini journey yet, I am aware that rudra granthi remains to be cut, so I’m not suggesting I understand everything or have accomplished everything. 
 

 

 

How wonderful, that you could share a language about these things with your mother, and work on them together.

 

I definitely have correlates, for the lower dan-t'ien and the middle.  I've come to view them as key elements in the openness of the nerve exits between the vertebrae of the sacrum and the spine.  That's why it's all taken me so long, to arrive at practice as I now experience it--an ability to feel throughout the body has to develop, right to the surface of the skin, and a consistent way to return to that abillity and advance it.

 

Gautama's description of the second jhana, that I believe corresponds with the development of that lower dan-t'ien:

 

… imagine a pool with a spring, but no water-inlet on the east side or the west side or on the north or on the south, and suppose the (rain-) deva supply not proper rains from time to time–cool waters would still well up from that pool, and that pool would be steeped, drenched, filled and suffused with the cold water so that not a drop but would be pervaded by the cold water; in just the same way… (one) steeps (their) body with zest and ease… 

 

(AN III Book of Fives, The Fivefold, The Five-Limbed, tr. Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19)

 

Some quotes I thought were related:

 

Rinzai teacher Omori Sogen wrote:

 

… It may be the least trouble to say as a general precaution that strength should be allowed to come to fullness naturally as one becomes proficient in sitting.  We should sit so that our energy increases of itself and brims over… 

 

(“An Introduction to Zen Training:  A Translation of Sanzen Nyumon”, Omori Sogen, tr. Dogen Hosokawa and Roy Yoshimoto, Tuttle Publishing, p 59)

 

Omori quoted one Hida Haramitsu:

 

We should balance the power of the hara (area below the navel) and the koshi (area at the rear of the pelvis) and maintain equilibrium of the seated body by bringing the center of the body’s weight in line with the center of the triangular base of the seated body. 

 

(Hida Haramitsu, “Nikon no Shimei” [“Mission of Japan”], parentheticals added; publisher and date unknown)

 

 

Gautama's description of the third corporeal jhana, that corresponds for me with the middle dan-t'ien:

 

… free from the fervor of zest, (one) enters and abides in the third musing; (one) steeps and drenches and fills and suffuses this body with a zestless ease so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this zestless ease. … just as in a pond of blue, white, and red water-lilies, the plants are born in water, grow in water, come not out of the water, but, sunk in the depths, find nourishment, and from tip to root are steeped, drenched, filled and suffused with cold water so that not a part of them is not pervaded by cold water; even so, (one) steeps (one’s) body in zestless ease.

 

(AN III Book of Fives, The Fivefold, The Five-Limbed, tr. Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19)

 

My comment:

 

The water-lilies I believe represent the influence of the legs, the arms, and the head on activity in the abdominals, and consequently on stretch in the ligaments of the spine. The feeling of a combined influence of the extremities in the abdomen could be said to be like lilies of three colors floating under the surface of some body of water.  The exact influence of each extremity remains unclear (zest ceases), yet with a sense of gravity and a stretch in particular ligaments, I can arrive at an ease.
 

Gautama declared that the sages abide in the third concentration. I remind myself that the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation tends toward coordination by the free placement of consciousness, and look for ease.
 

 

That last is my key to advancing my ability to feel, especially if I can turn it around to experience the activity of the body solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness.

 

Dermatomes, areas on the surface of the skin and their related vertebral exits:

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 12:07 AM by Mark Foote

[old3bob]

4 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Sure. In my opinion paths, practices, models, traditions and religions are entirely conceptual and do not precipitate "awakening". It is very often dropping the methods and practices that creates the opening. Many traditions acknowledge this. One of my favorite quotes is:

 

While practices can clear the way, enlightenment is definitely post practice, post concept, post model, post tradition, or religion.

 

Only experience with it would allow you to decide either way.

 

I can only talk about my experience. You are obviously free to do as you choose. It isn't any model I believe in, but rather my experience of this moment. 

 

Sure. Conceptual ideas about it might sound scary. Your description does sound horrific. In reality it looks just like your life does now. 

 

You should do as you are driven to do. If cobbling together your own path appeals, do it. I did the same, though it heavily leaned on Buddhism. In the end none of it was what I thought it would be... still isn't. 

 

A friend of mine asked, "what will happen to my "self" if I don't love it, or ignore it... doesn't it deserve love too". I understand the perspective that might give rise to such a question from one perspective. From another, it doesn't actually make any sense, since it doesn't really exist in the way that you might assume.

 

you could get off of getting down... 

[stirling]

50 minutes ago, old3bob said:

you could get off of getting down... 

 

?

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

The river and the ocean are expressions of the same water, but expressed in different forms. The river reflects its journey, it doesn’t negate the value of the past, and remains dynamic in the present. Considering both as the same underlying water recognises the amazing value that my physical, subtle and causal bodies are capable of encapsulating and expressing, i don’t have to transcend them, instead there is a grand interplay between individuality and unity. 

 

 

Beautiful! Nothing needs to be transcended - just realized  

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

you could get off of getting down... 

 

In old3bob´s defense, it´s been a very long year.

[stirling]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

Do you equate ‘modern’ nondual realisation with enlightenment?

 

I'm honestly not sure what you mean by "modern" non-dual realization. Maybe you mean neo-Advaita?

 

Descriptions of enlightenment from Hinduism, Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta, Sufism (amongst many) all recognizably point to the same realization, despite the fact that they might choose different characteristics to emphasize. I tend to use descriptions of my own in English, rather than the language of ancient traditions in an attempt at clarity, but I could relay it in an number of different vocabularies.

 

I don't feel that enlightenment is ever perfectly represented by language, since language by its very existence counts on a subject/object relationship that has no reality to enlightened mind.

 

Why do you ask? 

 

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

My path is ‘cobbled’ together by a wisdom that has access to the blueprints of my entire system across three levels, physical, subtle and causal. It’s an intrinsic wisdom perfectly designed for complete integration of these three levels. I am neither the driver, nor the cobbler, I’m just catching the bus.

 

...but it is YOURS, yes? It borrows from other systems and nomenclatures for its existence, assembled into something you find logical? 

 

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

I can conceive of many selves, my emotional self, my mental self, my kundalini self, my Atman/original spirit self, every one of these selves need to be attended to in differing ways. They all exist within the grip of karma and samskaras. Removing the karmic grip and samskaras doesn’t cause these selves to not exist, it just leaves them free to exist in unity with each other. Four healthy selves integrated. It is a very different vision to yours. 

 

Conceived of... sure, OK, but some or all of those aren't necessary experienced are they? As you say, you conceive of them... they are imaginal. This is what I am talking about. I once had a system of beliefs about how the universe was constructed, and trusted it enough to let go of seeking... until it got blown out of the water. 

 

What about the selves that you ACTUALLY experience, selves that arise when you interact in the supermarket check-out, a dinner party, with a loved one, talk with people about your beliefs on the internet, or interact with colleagues at work, all them arising due to the causes and conditions of the moment, slightly different from each other, each telling different versions of your story to the world, and all of them temporary. This is the "self". None of it is what "you" are, or it wouldn't be temporary, wouldn't change constantly. We attribute all of them to the tiny, imagined driver of our body behind our eyebrows. 

 

[stirling]

12 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

In old3bob´s defense, it´s been a very long year.

 

Bob can't hurt my feelings... I just don't know what he means, or is referring to.