Transcendence vs Integration

[Bindi]

33 minutes ago, dwai said:

The Self literally translates to Atman. Jiva literally means the living being (is born and therefore dies).  what you’re calling the soul is basically the subtle body (sukshma/linga sharira) that transmigrates between lifetimes. 
 

Now there are many conceptualizations of what Atman really is, based on varying interpretations of the Upanishads - dualistic, qualified monistic as well as non-dualistic. 

I agree, in your framework the soul that is at all entangled with karma is part of the subtle body system. This is indeed one possibility for what I’m describing, the other possibility is that this soul is in the causal body which is still restricted by karma, but remains serene and unperturbed waiting to be freed. There might or might not be a further Self beyond this, in the end there are multiple conceptualisations, any one of them or none of them might be right. Firm belief in a philosophical system has more of a chance of being wrong than being right, as there are any number of philosophical systems and only one reality. Only direct experience with the subtle and causal bodies can transcend any and all systems of thought.

 

For me the jury’s out until I know more.

 

Edited Thursday at 06:11 AM by Bindi

[old3bob]

 

it's a good bet to be more or less be agnostic about some of this material since we know that what is being pointed at can't be nailed down like other stuff.   A take that was fortunately verified for me: the unique soul bodies are the countless evolving souls, thus not within that soul but as that soul (from the very young to the ancient golden elders, angels and gods!), while the one Self in all souls could be said to be the "Soul of souls". 

 

  Further, at the end of a cosmic cycle all souls return...Btw. the historic Buddha per well recognized Buddhist  doctrine alluded to Ananda several times that he could stay (which I'd take as in one form or another) for the rest of the cosmic cycle but Ananda did not catch his drift.  

Edited Thursday at 10:30 AM by old3bob

[Apech]

6 hours ago, Bindi said:

I agree, in your framework the soul that is at all entangled with karma is part of the subtle body system. This is indeed one possibility for what I’m describing, the other possibility is that this soul is in the causal body which is still restricted by karma, but remains serene and unperturbed waiting to be freed. There might or might not be a further Self beyond this, in the end there are multiple conceptualisations, any one of them or none of them might be right. Firm belief in a philosophical system has more of a chance of being wrong than being right, as there are any number of philosophical systems and only one reality. Only direct experience with the subtle and causal bodies can transcend any and all systems of thought.

 

For me the jury’s out until I know more.

 

 

I agree with your last point.  I tend to avoid abstruse arguments about soul and self and non-self because in the end all will be revealed on true realisation or insight as we go along the way.

 

I treat karma partly as common sense, in that actions produce results and the results tend to mirror the original act.  So in terms of conduct I should try to do wholesome things to get wholesome results - to provide better conditions for myself and others.  This without agonising over what particular action produced which result - as the whole thing is like tangled hair.  So it just gives a reason to behave better.  Beyond that of course the subtle body is distorted by emotional charge resulting from past actions and experiences.  Sometimes parasitic energies are attracted like bugs onto negative karmic states leading to repetitive circular energy states (like addiction or obsessive thoughts and so on) which is dangerous and hard to deal with.  

 

Emotions and emotional states have to be addressed (but without becoming indulgently self focussed) and the knots undone.  

 

Kundalini? Well that's difficult but I see that as a special or extra energy released when you begin to see through to reality - it's important not to force it but it will come when awareness and primordial substance are linked.

 

 

[Bindi]

On 2/1/2025 at 8:25 PM, Apech said:

 

I agree with your last point.  I tend to avoid abstruse arguments about soul and self and non-self because in the end all will be revealed on true realisation or insight as we go along the way.

 

I treat karma partly as common sense, in that actions produce results and the results tend to mirror the original act.  So in terms of conduct I should try to do wholesome things to get wholesome results - to provide better conditions for myself and others.  This without agonising over what particular action produced which result - as the whole thing is like tangled hair.  So it just gives a reason to behave better.  Beyond that of course the subtle body is distorted by emotional charge resulting from past actions and experiences.  Sometimes parasitic energies are attracted like bugs onto negative karmic states leading to repetitive circular energy states (like addiction or obsessive thoughts and so on) which is dangerous and hard to deal with.  

 

Emotions and emotional states have to be addressed (but without becoming indulgently self focussed) and the knots undone.  

 

Kundalini? Well that's difficult but I see that as a special or extra energy released when you begin to see through to reality - it's important not to force it but it will come when awareness and primordial substance are linked.

 

 

 

As I currently understand it, the union of Kundalini (Shakti), associated with the subtle body, and Shiva, kundalini’s counterpart in the causal body, has the potential to integrate the subtle and the causal body in a tangible and embodied way. I think these energy’s desire for union is the fundamental driver for our ‘spiritual’ search, though this driver remains subconscious throughout most of our journey. 

 

Both the subtle and the causal bodies ultimately require the action of kundalini for true freedom from karma, which then allows a rewrite of how energy and consciousness flow within the system. 

edit to add: Getting this step right is so difficult that as far as I can see it is relegated to being an impossibility.

 

 

Edited 22 hours ago by Bindi

[old3bob]

 

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them". Albert Einstein

 

and the context of that can be extrapolated on...
 

[stirling]

On 1/1/2025 at 6:07 PM, Bindi said:

I am aware that kundalini is seen as irrelevant in nondual frameworks, in general I think kundalini itself has not been fully understood, neither it’s part in spiritual growth nor how to work with it properly. This is just how it is, as long as we don’t wipe ourselves out as a species I think we will get to understand kundalini dynamics fully and learn how to work with it properly.

 

From everything I have ever gathered about kundalini, it is best left to do its thing, and is usually a co-arising by product in SOME spiritual growth events, though not necessarily complete insight. I have read accounts of people who have had adverse effects by trying to manipulate it. My small experience with something that might be labeled kundalini was when meditating once and putting attention on a perceived "knot" in my skull; with its dissipation was a series of electrical shock sensations in the same area. 

 

Some Buddhist schools have manipulations of subtle energies as relative practices, but in what I have read and learnt first hand it isn't that what is taught has any real existence, they are most often frameworks of visualization that could be approached any number of ways. 

 

Circling back, I am curious about what you labeled the "modern" non-dual movement  - who are some proponents and what are some of the core published materials?

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

From everything I have ever gathered about kundalini, it is best left to do its thing,

 

Absolutely, the place to start for natural kundalini activation is working with and releasing emotional/mental baggage. The ‘Shiva’ aspect will open the door when the time is right. 

 

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and is usually a co-arising by product in SOME spiritual growth events, though not necessarily complete insight.
 

 

Have you come across the three granthi’s? It’s kundalini’s job to get through these, by the time she’s gotten through all three there will be complete insight, it is an innate system precisely designed to do the job at hand. 

 

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I have read accounts of people who have had adverse effects by trying to manipulate it.
 

 

For sure, I wouldn’t dare try to manipulate it, absolutely not my place. 

 

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My small experience with something that might be labeled kundalini was when meditating once and putting attention on a perceived "knot" in my skull; with its dissipation was a series of electrical shock sensations in the same area. 
 

 

Even putting attention somewhere I would be wary of, I’m a non-manipulation purist. Having said that I did put attention on my navel initially for years, because I noticed a sensation there. Consciousness is a very powerful tool, so powerful in fact that I believe it can distort the energy body quite easily. 

 

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Some Buddhist schools have manipulations of subtle energies as relative practices, but in what I have read and learnt first hand it isn't that what is taught has any real existence, they are most often frameworks of visualization that could be approached any number of ways. 

 

 

I can only say I believe kundalini is a real energy, fit for purpose. 

 

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Circling back, I am curious about what you labeled the "modern" non-dual movement  - who are some proponents and what are some of the core published materials?

By modern non-dual I mean the neo-Advaita movement and any others that promote awakening as achievable in hours or days or weeks given the right pointing. Going back to the granthis, non-identification with the body, with emotional grasping, and with the ego and all associated karma are immense tasks that take time, even when kundalini is the energy cutting these knots. 
 

Edited 11 minutes ago by Bindi