Transcendence vs Integration

[Apech]

55 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

rest as awareness...

rust in peace … 

[old3bob]

 

hmm, that reminds me the Self is so very, very fast so to speak that it is everywhere at once and standing still, thus a perception of a particular (or limited location) is ultimately and only apparent.  If I'm not wrong that is a problem some have via misinterpretation of Self/Atman.

[Bindi]

21 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

We both get to think about it, as does everyone else on the thread.

 

Yes, the idea is that freedom in the location of consciousness becomes the source of the automatic activity of the body.  The magic in that is, willful activity is absent, regardless of where consciousness takes place. 
 

 

I could say I am informed by automatic processes, for me it’s dreams and kundalini perhaps, but there is an element of directed attention in working with what these automatic processes bring to my attention. 

 

21 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Not having experienced kundalini energy, I'm curious how you practice, to what extent your experience guides your practice. 
 

Once kundalini was roused (after some forty five years or so of emotional/mental ‘clearing’ pre work), its role seems to be to bring samskaras bit by bit to the surface, in a more accelerated and insistent way than pre kundalini, which can be emotionally intense. Any prework done to dismantle samskaras really pays off during this process. Initially, I felt overwhelmed and lost in the emotive story, but after maybe a couple of years I learned to face these emotions directly, sitting with them and just feeling them. After pretty much staying with this process which culminated in a few moments of seemingly intense pain that felt like it had been there forever, it seems I shifted to also working with the vasanas at the causal body level, so the roots of karma. This work seems to be a lot more removed from the emotional pain level, vasanas are more at arms length and I’m able to move more into an objective observer role, with  dreams still providing additional guidance, pointing out particular patterns or defenses that I mentally try to comprehend and address.
 

At this stage, my main practice is observing conditioned thoughts or feelings as they arise, fully acknowledging them, and tracing their karmic threads as best I can. I believe this is the key to dissolving vasanas. I don’t think Kundalini energy directly clears the causal level it just helps clear emotional and mental knots in the subtle body making it possible to approach the causal body, which holds the underlying karmic vasanas, with greater clarity and objectivity.

 

While it may be possible to address vasanas without kundalini, I believe the central channel’s unfolding is simply the most efficient and thorough design for this work. 

[Bindi]

9 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

hmm, that reminds me the Self is so very, very fast so to speak that it is everywhere at once and standing still, thus a perception of a particular (or limited location) is ultimately and only apparent.  If I'm not wrong that is a problem some have via misinterpretation of Self/Atman.

I think if one just keeps working with and through the layer that presents itself, we’ll get there in the end, I like the kosha model for this. It’s ok if I don’t identify as the Self, because I’ll get there in the end. The causal body is equivalent to anandamaya kosha, not the Self but the last layer before the Self. Do the work that needs to be done within this kosha, which to me is removing vasanas, and the Self will be revealed, fully and permanently with no limitations. It’s enough, and needn’t be rushed, because so much will remain undone if these layers and their issues and gifts are ignored. 

[johndoe2012]

I think there is some good wisdom from the Bön tradition in the Soul Retrieval that incorporates both the Self / Awareness and the Elements (subtle body / Soul) - it doesn't ignore or do spiritual bypassing in the neo-advaita way.

 

You can find the course for free here

 

https://ligminchalearning.com/the-true-source-of-healing/

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 02:50 AM by johndoe2012

[Mark Foote]

On 1/7/2025 at 11:36 AM, Bindi said:

I can explain it via the dream I posted on another thread.
 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

“In the dream, an overgrown grapevine was entwined with a wooden pergola. My task was to disentangle the vine from the structure. Methodically, I unwound the tendrils from the beams, separated the branches, and finally approached the central post, where the vine’s trunk had become so intertwined with the structure that they seemed inseparable. After much effort, I managed to split them apart.

 

Once separated, the entire structure began to topple. I attempted to stabilise it twice, but on the third attempt, I gave up and walked away. When I turned back, the overgrown vine and structure had vanished, replaced by a fresh, new vine, this time without a structure. In the dream, I realised that while I had thought the pergola supported the vine, it had actually restricted it. The new vine, free of the structure, was now able to grow unimpeded.

 

I interpret this to mean that spiritual "work" involves the gradual peeling away of emotional and mental clinging to conditioned reality. This process progresses from the easily separable to deeply entrenched complexes. However, the work does not end there; ultimately, both the conditioned manifestations (the vine) and the supportive but restrictive structures (the pergola) are entirely cleared away. What emerges is a renewed, unconditioned self—rooted in the same transcendent ground of being but manifesting in the world in an entirely different, freer way.”

 

 

In this dream, I went from deliberately separating the vine from the structure (my choice) to trying to stop the entire thing from toppling over (I do not want my sense of ‘reality’ to fall), I actively work against the new status quo, twice, before I finally allow gravity (kundalini) to take its course. I’m not pushing my known reality over, a force of nature is causing it and I’m actively working against that force of nature, though in the end nature wins. 

 

Who’s actually ready to feel the seemingly eternal intensity of karmic pain or drop overblown karmic stories, but they’re child’s play in comparison to the dropping of the sense of self that is ultimately required.

 

 

Gautama described a state in which volition in the activity of the mind falls away, in particular volition in feeling and perceiving.  Now I would say that a more likely description of that cessation is that both habit and volition fall away, as for most of us the experience of feeling and perceiving without volition is not that uncommon.

Gautama gives us some idea of what that state would be like in a lecture entitled "Emptiness" (MN 121).  There he says:

 And there is only this that is not emptiness, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself. (One) regards that which is not there as empty of it. But in regard to what remains, (one) comprehends:  'That being, this is.' 

(tr. Pali  Text Society, vol. III pp 151-152)

 

The six sense fields, the usual five and the mind (presumably as the organ of thought and memory), were still present for Gautama even with the final concentration, even as freedom and knowledge followed his recognition that "whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping" in that final concentration.

Gautama gave some idea of what consciousness without habit or volition in feeling and perceiving must be like, in another lecture:
 

(Anyone)…knowing and seeing eye as it really is, knowing and seeing material shapes… visual consciousness… impact on the eye as it really is, and knowing, seeing as it really is the experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye, is not attached to the eye nor to material shapes nor to visual consciousness nor to impact on the eye; and that experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye—neither to that is (such a one) attached. …(Such a one’s) physical anxieties decrease, and mental anxieties decrease, and bodily torments… and mental torments… and bodily fevers decrease, and mental fevers decrease. (Such a one) experiences happiness of body and happiness of mind. (repeated for ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind).
 

Whatever is the view of what really is, that for (such a one) is right view; whatever is aspiration for what really is, that for (such a one) is right aspiration; whatever is endeavour for what really is, that is for (such a one) right endeavour; whatever is mindfulness of what really is, that is for (such a one) right mindfulness; whatever is concentration on what really is, that is for (such a one) right concentration. And (such a one’s) past acts of body, acts of speech, and mode of livelihood have been well purified.
 

(MN 149, tr. Pali Text Society vol. 3 pp 336-338)

 

Although he makes his experience of the senses sound everyday, I think "knowing and seeing the eye as it really is, knowing and seeing material shapes... visual consciousness... impact on the eye", and subsequently knowing and seeing the feeling arising as a result of impact on the eye, that level of distinction can only really be had when habit and volition in feeling and perceiving have ceased.

 

I don't aspire to that level of distinction, and yet I do see where arriving at the experience of activity of the body solely by virtue of the place of occurrence of consciousness whittles away at "the sense of 'self'", or as Gautama put it, the "latent conceits that mine is the doer, I am the doer, with regard to this consciousness-informed body." 

I also see the importance of the extension of the mind of friendliness and the mind of compassion "throughout the four corners of the world, above and below, without limit", as Gautama put it.  "The excellence of the heart's release" that comes with the extension of the mind of compassion is the first of the "incorporeal" concentrations, according to Gautama, "the infinity of ether". That experience I think can be the source of truly selfless action of the body, the vine in motion, as it were.

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Gautama described a state in which volition in the activity of the mind falls away, in particular volition in feeling and perceiving.  Now I would say that a more likely description of that cessation is that both habit and volition fall away, as for most of us the experience of feeling and perceiving without volition is not that uncommon.

Gautama gives us some idea of what that state would be like in a lecture entitled "Emptiness" (MN 121).  There he says:

 And there is only this that is not emptiness, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself. (One) regards that which is not there as empty of it. But in regard to what remains, (one) comprehends:  'That being, this is.' 

(tr. Pali  Text Society, vol. III pp 151-152)

 

The six sense fields, the usual five and the mind (presumably as the organ of thought and memory), were still present for Gautama even with the final concentration, even as freedom and knowledge followed his recognition that "whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping" in that final concentration.

Gautama gave some idea of what consciousness without habit or volition in feeling and perceiving must be like, in another lecture:
 

(Anyone)…knowing and seeing eye as it really is, knowing and seeing material shapes… visual consciousness… impact on the eye as it really is, and knowing, seeing as it really is the experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye, is not attached to the eye nor to material shapes nor to visual consciousness nor to impact on the eye; and that experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye—neither to that is (such a one) attached. …(Such a one’s) physical anxieties decrease, and mental anxieties decrease, and bodily torments… and mental torments… and bodily fevers decrease, and mental fevers decrease. (Such a one) experiences happiness of body and happiness of mind. (repeated for ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind).
 

Whatever is the view of what really is, that for (such a one) is right view; whatever is aspiration for what really is, that for (such a one) is right aspiration; whatever is endeavour for what really is, that is for (such a one) right endeavour; whatever is mindfulness of what really is, that is for (such a one) right mindfulness; whatever is concentration on what really is, that is for (such a one) right concentration. And (such a one’s) past acts of body, acts of speech, and mode of livelihood have been well purified.
 

(MN 149, tr. Pali Text Society vol. 3 pp 336-338)

 

Although he makes his experience of the senses sound everyday, I think "knowing and seeing the eye as it really is, knowing and seeing material shapes... visual consciousness... impact on the eye", and subsequently knowing and seeing the feeling arising as a result of impact on the eye, that level of distinction can only really be had when habit and volition in feeling and perceiving have ceased.

 

I don't aspire to that level of distinction, and yet I do see where arriving at the experience of activity of the body solely by virtue of the place of occurrence of consciousness whittles away at "the sense of 'self'", or as Gautama put it, the "latent conceits that mine is the doer, I am the doer, with regard to this consciousness-informed body." 

I also see the importance of the extension of the mind of friendliness and the mind of compassion "throughout the four corners of the world, above and below, without limit", as Gautama put it.  "The excellence of the heart's release" that comes with the extension of the mind of compassion is the first of the "incorporeal" concentrations, according to Gautama, "the infinity of ether". That experience I think can be the source of truly selfless action of the body, the vine in motion, as it were.

I think we agree that the false self, the one created out of habit and volition (I would say and karma), needs to be dismantled. But we have a different perspective on what happens after this dismantling. In my dream, the new vine remains, this time unrestricted by the structure (the false self), while Buddhism proposes that no self remains at all. I see this as a fundamental difference between our perspectives, and the consequences of this difference are quite significant, for example in naming where fundamental consciousness emanates from, and the nature of compassion. In Buddhism, compassion is a practice, a cultivated virtue that one develops. However, from my perspective, compassion would arise as a natural outflow from the new vine (the true self that emerges once the false self is dismantled), it would be an inherent quality of the new state of being that unfolds when the false self no longer governs.

 

[old3bob]

 

Just some random associations:

what purpose for that that is "dismantled" in the first place?  What purpose for the mud that the lotus flower has roots in, should that be dismantled, what then of the flower?   

 

Edited Wednesday at 11:10 AM by old3bob

[doc benway]

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

In Buddhism, compassion is a practice, a cultivated virtue that one develops. However, from my perspective, compassion would arise as a natural outflow from the new vine (the true self that emerges once the false self is dismantled), it would be an inherent quality of the new state of being that unfolds when the false self no longer governs.

 

In Buddhism, true compassion is exactly as you describe the new vine. It is a spontaneous and unfabricated quality of Being that is naturally present. The Buddhist practices that cultivate compassion lead to a relative, fabricated compassion that is valuable in a “fake it till you make it” sort of way by minimizing negative karma but this is not the “real” thing.

[doc benway]

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

I think we agree that the false self, the one created out of habit and volition (I would say and karma), needs to be dismantled. But we have a different perspective on what happens after this dismantling. In my dream, the new vine remains, this time unrestricted by the structure (the false self), while Buddhism proposes that no self remains at all. I see this as a fundamental difference between our perspectives, and the consequences of this difference are quite significant, for example in naming where fundamental consciousness emanates from, and the nature of compassion

 

My understanding is that Buddhism, properly interpreted, does not endorse the idea of “no self” or the non-existence of self, but rather points out the illusory and flexible nature of our experience of self. The experience of self as that which inhabits my bag of skin and is buffeted by the winds of karma is samsara. The experience of liberation from that inaccurate identification and inhabiting a far more profound, pervasive, and compassionate sense of self is nirvana. Both are subsumed by, are an energetic display of, the natural state, the unfabricated essence of Being. As long as I have breath, eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and mind there is a sense of self. The difference is to what degree I feel locked into a particular set of limitations that I define as me.

[Cobie]

 

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

Just some random associations:

what purpose for that that is "dismantled" in the first place?  What purpose for the mud that the lotus flower has roots in, should that be dismantled, what then of the flower?   

 

Exactly.  

 

This is imo  exactly what the DDJ says too in Ch 2:

難 易 之 相 成 也   difficult and easy - these jointly accomplish.

長 短 之 相 型 也  respect and criticism - these jointly mould character.

 

Edited Wednesday at 04:02 PM by Cobie

[Bindi]

9 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

Just some random associations:

what purpose for that that is "dismantled" in the first place?  What purpose for the mud that the lotus flower has roots in, should that be dismantled, what then of the flower?   

 

 

The new vine is planted in the same earth as the old vine, but it has been transformed and renewed, while the earth remains unchanged. All external, restrictive structures (karma, conditioning, and outdated patterns) are dismantled, yet the underlying foundation continues to nurture growth.

 

The earth symbolises something intrinsic and unchanging which is truly impartial in its support. It nurtures whatever grows, whether it’s the overgrown, restricted vine entangled with its structure or the new, unencumbered vine.

 

The process of removing the old is not about destroying some essence of existence but about clearing obstructions, creating the freedom for authentic and unrestricted growth.

 

[Bindi]

10 hours ago, doc benway said:

 

In Buddhism, true compassion is exactly as you describe the new vine. It is a spontaneous and unfabricated quality of Being that is naturally present. The Buddhist practices that cultivate compassion lead to a relative, fabricated compassion that is valuable in a “fake it till you make it” sort of way by minimizing negative karma but this is not the “real” thing.

Our perspectives differ, I don’t believe that adding conditioning, no matter how positive or well-intentioned, will remove underlying karma. To me adding anything is adding to the overgrown vine and structure which cannot be removed via addition but only by subtraction. 

[Bindi]

10 hours ago, doc benway said:

 

My understanding is that Buddhism, properly interpreted, does not endorse the idea of “no self” or the non-existence of self, but rather points out the illusory and flexible nature of our experience of self. The experience of self as that which inhabits my bag of skin and is buffeted by the winds of karma is samsara. The experience of liberation from that inaccurate identification and inhabiting a far more profound, pervasive, and compassionate sense of self is nirvana. Both are subsumed by, are an energetic display of, the natural state, the unfabricated essence of Being. As long as I have breath, eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and mind there is a sense of self. The difference is to what degree I feel locked into a particular set of limitations that I define as me.

If there is any karma, there is limitation, no matter what you do or don’t identify with, what you do or don’t feel locked in by. Even karma that is witnessed in a deeply calm and objective way, ie. from the perspective of the causal body, is still karma and still a limitation. Beyond identification with any of the bodies, existing in an unfabricated natural state, there will still be karma unless karma has been dismantled. 

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

Our perspectives differ, I don’t believe that adding conditioning, no matter how positive or well-intentioned, will remove underlying karma. To me adding anything is adding to the overgrown vine and structure which cannot be removed via addition but only by subtraction. 

 

Karma is continuously being accumulated and acting from a place of compassion and empathy, fabricated or not, will minimize additional accrual. Established karma has its own set of practices but I do believe that the Hindu and Buddhist traditions both teach that positive actions help to reduce one's karmic debt. Others can speak more authoritatively on this than me. In the dzogchen tradition, connecting with and abiding in the natural state is the (non)method of neutralizing karma.

[doc benway]

13 minutes ago, Bindi said:

If there is any karma, there is limitation, no matter what you do or don’t identify with, what you do or don’t feel locked in by. Even karma that is witnessed in a deeply calm and objective way, ie. from the perspective of the causal body, is still karma and still a limitation. Beyond identification with any of the bodies, existing in an unfabricated natural state, there will still be karma unless karma has been dismantled. 

 

This is a misunderstanding as karma does not affect the natural state.

[old3bob]

43 minutes ago, Bindi said:

If there is any karma, there is limitation, no matter what you do or don’t identify with, what you do or don’t feel locked in by. Even karma that is witnessed in a deeply calm and objective way, ie. from the perspective of the causal body, is still karma and still a limitation. Beyond identification with any of the bodies, existing in an unfabricated natural state, there will still be karma unless karma has been dismantled. 

 

what exists in the non-manifest other than the non-manifest,  "no-thing" which maybe a tiny fraction of beings are ready to pay the full price for?  (as in no coming back to any form, thus no longer being a particular being)

Edited Thursday at 12:51 AM by old3bob

[Bindi]

25 minutes ago, doc benway said:

 

This is a misunderstanding as karma does not affect the natural state.

Your perspective is the Dzogchen perspective, your assumptions are Dzogchen assumptions, over which we can only respectfully disagree 🙂

[Bindi]

39 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

what exists in the non-manifest other than the non-manifest,  "no-thing" which maybe a tiny fraction of beings are ready to pay the full price for?  (as in no coming back to any form, thus no longer being a particular being)

 

I think if this was the natural and actual requirement at the end of an authentic path I wouldn’t have a problem with that, I don’t have a prescribed outcome. I wonder if an atheist or materialist has already accepted this outcome? 

[old3bob]

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I think if this was the natural and actual requirement at the end of an authentic path I wouldn’t have a problem with that, I don’t have a prescribed outcome. I wonder if an atheist or materialist has already accepted this outcome? 

 

I don't think it would be given as a requirement, as for the atheist or materialist  pov I'd say such can not wrap it's head (so to speak) around 'no-thing' which is not equal to nothing as is pointed towards in chap 43 of the T.T.C.. (even if the English word nothing is used in some translations)

Edited Thursday at 10:17 AM by old3bob

[doc benway]

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

Your perspective is the Dzogchen perspective, your assumptions are Dzogchen assumptions, over which we can only respectfully disagree 🙂

 

Dzogchen makes no assumptions, that is one thing that makes it unique, and my perspective is informed by other traditions as well. And yes, can respectfully disagree. 

[johndoe2012]

13 hours ago, doc benway said:

 

This is a misunderstanding as karma does not affect the natural state.

 

From Namkhai Norbu 

 

Quote

To be in the state of contemplation is the supreme purification; this statement not only corresponds with Tantra and Dzogchen, but also with the words of the Buddha. He explained that you can 
accumulate a great quantity of merit and purify negative karma if you become a monk or nun, follow the rules of Vinaya, go to the temple every day, offer flowers and candles to the Buddha, makeofferings and prostrations, and dedicate your entire life to practice

as they do in the Sutra tradition. But if you compare the effects of

all of these actions of a monk or nun with the effects of being in

the state of contemplation for no more than the amount of time it

takes for an ant to walk from the tip of your nose to your forehead,

there is no doubt that being in the state of contemplation for just a

few seconds is an infinitely greater form of purification.

 

So being in a state of contemplation (natural state) is considered purification, not being exempt of karmic laws. My interpretation. 

[oak]

On 07/01/2025 at 7:36 PM, Bindi said:

 

  Hide contents

 

“In the dream, an overgrown grapevine was entwined with a wooden pergola. My task was to disentangle the vine from the structure. Methodically, I unwound the tendrils from the beams, separated the branches, and finally approached the central post, where the vine’s trunk had become so intertwined with the structure that they seemed inseparable. After much effort, I managed to split them apart.

 

Once separated, the entire structure began to topple. I attempted to stabilise it twice, but on the third attempt, I gave up and walked away. When I turned back, the overgrown vine and structure had vanished, replaced by a fresh, new vine, this time without a structure. In the dream, I realised that while I had thought the pergola supported the vine, it had actually restricted it. The new vine, free of the structure, was now able to grow unimpeded.

 

I interpret this to mean that spiritual "work" involves the gradual peeling away of emotional and mental clinging to conditioned reality. This process progresses from the easily separable to deeply entrenched complexes. However, the work does not end there; ultimately, both the conditioned manifestations (the vine) and the supportive but restrictive structures (the pergola) are entirely cleared away. What emerges is a renewed, unconditioned self—rooted in the same transcendent ground of being but manifesting in the world in an entirely different, freer way.”

 

 

 

I've been absent from the bums for quite sometime now. Last night I found myself having a conversation with a relative about symbols that appear in dreams. I gave as an example the biblical vine... believe me it's not something that happens often, maybe once every five years, nor the vine is one of my favourite symbols. A few hours later I find your thread, Bindi 🙂

The synchronicity is indeed fascinating. 

Slowly I'm trying to read the whole thread. Maybe some information I need to find in this dialogue. Again, thanks for starting it.

[Bindi]

I’m going to get a lot of flak for this, but nonetheless I’d like to say, I’ve noticed a pattern arising in this thread. There are a number of people, especially the nondually realised, who are karma bypassers.  In 2010 Master’s brought attention to a problem he noticed in the Buddhist community he was part of which he termed spiritual bypassing. This was specifically the tendency to bypass emotions and emotional health using the claim of spiritual achievements as a way of avoiding the messy work of actually engaging with emotions and emotional baggage. I see that this attitude of spiritual bypassing is also being used to negate the need to engage with karmic patterns, and this position is being justified by the institutionalised notion that  karma is irrelevant once one identifies as nondually realised. I would suggest the philosophy that asserts emotions are illusory and not to be engaged with and that karma is irrelevant is actually a fundamental problem. Emotional health is directly tied to karmic health, and this entire difficult aspect of our humanity has been largely excised from spirituality. Karma bypassing overlooks the reality that karma, like emotions, continues to arise and impact one's life and relationships, regardless of whether it is identified with or not. Claiming freedom from karma without addressing its deep-rooted patterns risks creating a second layer of spiritual bypassing, where unresolved karmic imprints, alongside emotional baggage, remain buried, whilst both still subtly shape behaviour and perception. Imagine claiming to be beyond karma before even being able to perceive it, it’s absurd. Not everyone has fallen for this trap though: 

 

"Karma is a great burden for the soul. Even so-called good karma is still a bond. It binds the soul to the cycle of birth and death. One must attain freedom from all karma to realize the Self."

 

"Good karma binds you to a golden chain, and bad karma binds you to an iron chain. Liberation is freedom from both."

• Swami Sivananda

 

[doc benway]

16 hours ago, Bindi said:

and this position is being justified by the institutionalised notion that  karma is irrelevant once one identifies as nondually realised.

 

Your points are very well taken Bindi. After sitting with this overnight, I feel like my initial post sounded too defensive so I'm editing it. I’m not saying anything of the sort, in case this was directed at my comments. In the Bön dzogchen teachings, non-dual realization is not some magical transformation that leads to the end of karma, it is an experience of meditation (nyams) that indicates a release of an obstacle, an illusion, the delusion of being a separate self, independent and inherently existent. It is a direct recognition of dependent arising These nyams can take as many different forms as we have obstacles to realization. These experiences are so powerful and consuming, it is easy to get attached and have the experience become an obstacle in and of itself as you describe. This is one of many reasons why non-dual teachings were highly secretive in Tibet. 

 

The core dzogchen practice does not depend on non-dual philosophy. It is about recognizing the nature of mind and distinguishing this from the mind's activity and contents. Once this has occurred successfully, it is about abiding in the nature, rather than engaging and identifying with the activity and contents, and seeing how the activity and contents arise spontaneously from the base (this is the role of practices like dark retreat, sun and sky gazing). While it is not for everyone, and we can agree to disagree on this point, if one is able to truly abide in the mind's nature, karma does not accumulate and is being actively purified. It is not an easy thing to do and most of us are only able to do it intermittently. At first we are limited to doing it under very controlled circumstances, on a cushion in a quiet place, and everything distracts us and pulls us out all too easily. Over time we may be fortunate enough, if our karma is right, to develop the familiarity and skill to the point where it can be a part of every moment of living and dying, at least that's the idea, very few reach that point. Non-dual realization and abiding in the nature of mind are two different things. Karma does not accumulate when one is abiding in the nature of mind. Karma most certainly can and does accumulate following non-dual realization.

 

Spiritual bypassing is very real and quite prevalent and I, for one, am always glad to see it pointed out both here and by my fellow practitioners and teachers.  A major focus of practice and teaching in the school I’m affiliated with is to acknowledge that this happens, teach how to recognize when it occurs, and take steps to address it. I freely admit I continue to generate karma daily, some good and some bad, and purify karma as well; but I can say that after my own experience with non-dual realization about 20 years ago, my life changed profoundly in ways that reduced the negative karma being generated. That was when I recognized the difference between fabricated and unfabricated compassion we discussed earlier. One trivial example is that I used to love fly-fishing. After my experience I found I simply could not do it any longer. I could derive no pleasure whatsoever from torturing fish, it became a painful experience. I tried it once and simply walked away. Of course, if I needed to fish to eat I would do it but not for sport or pleasure. I even find it painful to kill insects. There is a respect for and empathy with life in all forms that I didn't have before. There are many other examples but that's the idea.

 

It's also important to acknowledge that spiritual bypassing is not limited to non-dual practices and philosophies. It can be seen in all aspects of Buddhism (sutra, tantra, and dzogchen) as well as in all other spiritual traditions, certainly it is obvious to me in the Abrahamic religions. It is related more to the individual than to the tradition, IMO, but I do agree that it is a considerable hazard in non-dual traditions. I think this is one of the dangers of the "new age" non-dual trend because they lack the long experience and support developed in the ancient non-dual traditions that have recognized and learned how to deal with this trap over time. Sorry to ramble but I do think this is an important point you make. 

 

 

Edited Friday at 03:12 PM by doc benway