Transcendence vs Integration

[old3bob]

 

Some karma can be described/felt (per an analogy) like rusty flakes of iron and iron (or the soul that it is covered with it will be pulled via a magnetic like field effect, (so to speak) until there is no iron left, also and at times a great master can hep by temporality holding karma in way so that a student can get a break and a moment of freedom/inspiration away from the weight.

Edited Saturday at 03:55 AM by old3bob

[forestofclarity]

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but the initial model sounds like it is dividing ultimate truth from relative truth, and seems to be describing a classic Samkhya, renunciate approach. Relative practices are often important, and this would include various forms of healing, therapy, integration, etc. But over time, the relative practices become less necessary as one's center of gravity shifts away from the relative self to a more open spacious awareness. This is not a state of inactive passivity but a state of spontaneous action. And the shift itself need not be forced, it just happens.

 

One issue is that people often overestimate their development tend to abandon the relative practices too quick, which some teachers describe as premature immaculation. 

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

One issue is that people often overestimate their development tend to abandon the relative practices too quick, which some teachers describe as premature immaculation.

 

I must say that this is one of the best things I've read in some time.

Thank you @forestofclarity for that delightful metaphor!

[Bindi]

7 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but the initial model sounds like it is dividing ultimate truth from relative truth, and seems to be describing a classic Samkhya, renunciate approach. Relative practices are often important, and this would include various forms of healing, therapy, integration, etc. But over time, the relative practices become less necessary as one's center of gravity shifts away from the relative self to a more open spacious awareness. This is not a state of inactive passivity but a state of spontaneous action. And the shift itself need not be forced, it just happens.

 

My personal version of an integrative model approaches ‘spirituality’ and ultimate truth from an entirely different perspective. Relative practices are the work, a shift away from the relative self would be a shift away from integrative potential. The shift that does happen after many years of relative work is into a deeper more powerful consciousness within the body and the sense of self, equivalent to a shift into the central channel. This then becomes the stage for a different, more ‘energised’ level of relative work, which still addresses and works with emotions and thoughts (that weren’t sorted in the initial relative work, ie. underlying karma). These three consciousnesses, emotional mental and ‘energetic’, then align in the centre of the body in a central ‘dantian’, which aligns them with the soul or original self in the causal body, which can be seen as a fourth consciousness. The relative consciousnesses, purified and ‘upgraded’ through this work, are in direct communication and alignment with the deepest embodied Self, which is itself aligned with whatever is beyond one as an individual. Four consciousnesses, which all play a vital role in one’s life, and are all in direct communication with each other, in effect a team, headed by the fourth consciousness. 

 

7 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

 

One issue is that people often overestimate their development tend to abandon the relative practices too quick, which some teachers describe as premature immaculation. 

In an integrative model there is no possibility of abandoning relative practices too quick since relative practices are the work. 

[Cobie]

The truth is simple.

 

 

[old3bob]

15 hours ago, Cobie said:

The truth is simple.

 

 

 

yep, so simple that thought can not nail it down...

[Cobie]

If the argument is convoluted, it’s not true. 
 

 

[old3bob]

33 minutes ago, Cobie said:

If the argument is convoluted, it’s not true. 
 

 

any argument has convolutions of one sort or another...

[Mark Foote]

On 1/25/2025 at 1:58 PM, Bindi said:

My personal version of an integrative model approaches ‘spirituality’ and ultimate truth from an entirely different perspective. Relative practices are the work, a shift away from the relative self would be a shift away from integrative potential. The shift that does happen after many years of relative work is into a deeper more powerful consciousness within the body and the sense of self, equivalent to a shift into the central channel. This then becomes the stage for a different, more ‘energised’ level of relative work, which still addresses and works with emotions and thoughts (that weren’t sorted in the initial relative work, ie. underlying karma). These three consciousnesses, emotional mental and ‘energetic’, then align in the centre of the body in a central ‘dantian’, which aligns them with the soul or original self in the causal body, which can be seen as a fourth consciousness. The relative consciousnesses, purified and ‘upgraded’ through this work, are in direct communication and alignment with the deepest embodied Self, which is itself aligned with whatever is beyond one as an individual. Four consciousnesses, which all play a vital role in one’s life, and are all in direct communication with each other, in effect a team, headed by the fourth consciousness. 

In an integrative model there is no possibility of abandoning relative practices too quick since relative practices are the work. 
 

 

 

"What's a convolution without general immaculation..."

(apologies to the musical, 

"The Persecution and Assassination of Jean-Paul Marat as Performed by the Inmates of the Asylum of Charenton Under the Direction of the Marquis de Sade")

 

What I find fascinating about your approach, Bindi, is the conjoining of the physical, as in the central dan-t'ien, with aspects of both emotional patterning and consciousness. 

 

I'll admit, I have relegated the emotional work to the occasional exploration of memories and involuntary feelings, with the expectation that my life and my general practice will bring forward what is unresolved. 

 

I associate that central dan-t'ien with the third line of Fuxi's poem:

 

The empty hand grasps the hoe handle
Walking along, I ride the ox
The ox crosses the wooden bridge
The bridge is flowing, the water is still

 

(“Zen’s Chinese Heritage”, tr. Andy Ferguson, p 2)

 

 

An essential part of my practice is the recognition that the ligaments, and in particular the stretch of ligaments, can control reciprocal innervation of agonist/antagonist muscle groups.  Fuxi's first line I believe concerns the reciprocity in muscle activity in the gluteous and tensor muscles, controlled by the sacroiliac joint ligaments.  The second line adds reciprocity in the muscles of the legs and the muscles around the pelvic basin generally, controlled by the stretch of the ilio-sacral ligaments (with the flexion and extension of the spine in inhalation and exhalation) and the stretch of the sacrospinous and sacrotubular ligaments. The third line is the arrival at reciprocity in all three sets of abdominals and the fine muscles of the spine, tied to the stretch of ligaments between the vertebrae of the central and upper lumbar spine. My role in it all is relaxation, recognizing the role of one-pointedness of mind and gravity in the feeling of ease, appreciating and detaching from thought. The last line is activity of the body solely by virtue of the location of consciousness, consciousness shifts and moves in the body and the automatic activity of the body follows. The sensation, said Gautama, is like a clean cloth covering the head and the entire body.

So indeed, phenomena of the middle dan-t'ien associated with the leap to a "purity by the pureness of  mind", a purity that can suffuse the body such that "there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind".

 

Those who leap out of the diamond trap make an effort to leap out, those who swallow the thicket of thorns swallow it with care.

 

(Yuanwu, "Zen Letters of Yuanwu", tr. Cleary, p 67)

 

 

As I wrote previously:

 

I practice now to experience the free placement of attention as the sole source of activity in the body in the movement of breath, and in my “complicated, difficult” daily life, I look for the mindfulness that allows me to touch on that freedom. 

 

My assumption is that the emotional work will find me, as it's invisible to me most of the time!

The practice of the extension of friendliness and compassion, in Gautama's teaching:
 

[One] dwells, having suffused the first quarter [of the world] with friendliness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; just so above, below, across; [one] dwells having suffused the whole world everywhere, in every way, with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. [One] dwells having suffused the first quarter with a mind of compassion… with a mind of sympathetic joy… with a mind of equanimity that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence.

|(MN 7; Pali Text Society Vol I p 48)

 

Gautama said that “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of the mind of compassion was the first of the further concentrations, a concentration he called “the infinity of ether” (SN 46.54; Pali Text Society Vol V p 100-102).

 

You scare me, Bindi--thar be dragons at the edge of my mental world, I'm sure.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 11:42 PM by Mark Foote

[old3bob]

 

interesting thing about the mind is that it is not really an our minds or my mind which are only apparent, but the mind.  

 

Edited Monday at 05:59 PM by old3bob

[doc benway]

I used to regard the adage, "before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water; after enlightenment, chop wood and carry water" to refer to the fact that our mundane activity precedes and succeeds enlightenment and requires and is worthy of our acknowledgment and attention; though our relationship to the activity, and to the one engaging in it, has changed. In the context of our discussion here, I also think it means that irrespective of our enlightening and awakening experiences, we continue to do the inner work that is needed with whatever tools are effective and at our disposal. As my teacher has said, in the context of when supplementary practices are needed by a dzogchenpa , 'when someone is present, practice is needed, when no-one is present, leave it as it is'

[old3bob]

7 minutes ago, doc benway said:

I used to regard the adage, "before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water; after enlightenment, chop wood and carry water" to refer to the fact that our mundane activity precedes and succeeds enlightenment and requires and is worthy of our acknowledgment and attention; though our relationship to the activity, and to the one engaging in it, has changed. In the context of our discussion here, I also think it means that irrespective of our enlightening and awakening experiences, we continue to do the inner work that is needed with whatever tools are effective and at our disposal. As my teacher has said, in the context of when supplementary practices are needed by a dzogchenpa , 'when someone is present, practice is needed, when no-one is present, leave it as it is'

 

 which would mean "no-one" is present to leave it as is...

[Keith108]

4 hours ago, doc benway said:

I used to regard the adage, "before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water; after enlightenment, chop wood and carry water" to refer to the fact that our mundane activity precedes and succeeds enlightenment and requires and is worthy of our acknowledgment and attention; though our relationship to the activity, and to the one engaging in it, has changed. In the context of our discussion here, I also think it means that irrespective of our enlightening and awakening experiences, we continue to do the inner work that is needed with whatever tools are effective and at our disposal. As my teacher has said, in the context of when supplementary practices are needed by a dzogchenpa , 'when someone is present, practice is needed, when no-one is present, leave it as it is'

 

Another possible interpretation of the Layman's words is that they are the same point. See Awakening of Faith in Mahayana, or Dogen's "Practice-Enlightenment". 

 

_/|\_

[doc benway]

54 minutes ago, Keith108 said:

 

Another possible interpretation of the Layman's words is that they are the same point. See Awakening of Faith in Mahayana, or Dogen's "Practice-Enlightenment". 

 

_/|\_

 

I’ll check your reference, thanks!

[doc benway]

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

 which would mean "no-one" is present to leave it as is...

 

Indeed, but for me, at least, he has a tendency to show up like the Spanish Inquisition…

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Keith108]

26 minutes ago, doc benway said:

 

I’ll check your reference, thanks!

 

Actually, it occurred to me that this is more of a Yogacara thing, and might not exactly align with the Dzogchen viewpoint, which is informed by the Madhyamika perspective. Could be wrong about that, though. I am no philosopher!  

Edited Monday at 07:34 PM by Keith108
added a missing word

[Bindi]

8 hours ago, doc benway said:

I used to regard the adage, "before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water; after enlightenment, chop wood and carry water" to refer to the fact that our mundane activity precedes and succeeds enlightenment and requires and is worthy of our acknowledgment and attention; though our relationship to the activity, and to the one engaging in it, has changed. In the context of our discussion here, I also think it means that irrespective of our enlightening and awakening experiences, we continue to do the inner work that is needed with whatever tools are effective and at our disposal. As my teacher has said, in the context of when supplementary practices are needed by a dzogchenpa , 'when someone is present, practice is needed, when no-one is present, leave it as it is'

Following my integrative model, mundane activity isn’t just about continuing as it was before or after enlightenment. The process of inner work fundamentally reshapes all the systems that carry out these activities. As you progress through the stages of integration, the relationship with thoughts and emotions transforms. This happens because the energy of the central channel, specifically kundalini energy, takes over as the primary consciousness of the heart and mind. Thoughts and emotions still exist, but a) they’re no longer reactive, b ) they’re somewhat upgraded and c) they’re now the result of the ‘soul’ consciousness, which wills any action that takes place. The entire system is overhauled. 

[forestofclarity]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

This happens because the energy of the central channel, specifically kundalini energy, takes over as the primary consciousness of the heart and mind. Thoughts and emotions still exist, but a) they’re no longer reactive, b ) they’re somewhat upgraded and c) they’re now the result of the ‘soul’ consciousness, which wills any action that takes place. The entire system is overhauled. 

 

This sounds very similar to the Indo-Tibetan models description, TBH. What is dissolved is not the mind, but the illusion of a separate self. The ultimate is not separate from the relative, any more than gold is separate from any specific form, such as a ring or a bracelet, etc. 

[old3bob]

31 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

This sounds very similar to the Indo-Tibetan models description, TBH. What is dissolved is not the mind, but the illusion of a separate self. The ultimate is not separate from the relative, any more than gold is separate from any specific form, such as a ring or a bracelet, etc. 

 

in that case it sounds like you would say no separate minds either?  

[Mark Foote]

17 hours ago, doc benway said:

I used to regard the adage, "before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water; after enlightenment, chop wood and carry water" to refer to the fact that our mundane activity precedes and succeeds enlightenment and requires and is worthy of our acknowledgment and attention; though our relationship to the activity, and to the one engaging in it, has changed. In the context of our discussion here, I also think it means that irrespective of our enlightening and awakening experiences, we continue to do the inner work that is needed with whatever tools are effective and at our disposal. As my teacher has said, in the context of when supplementary practices are needed by a dzogchenpa , 'when someone is present, practice is needed, when no-one is present, leave it as it is'
 

 

 

Someone named "Meido" posted this on dharmawheel.net, in response to the line you're referring to as "the adage"--I would assume that Meido is Meido Moore, the Rinzai teacher in Wisconsin:

Here from the Ruth Fuller Sasaki translation:

 

ONE DAY SHIH-T'OU said to the Layman: "Since seeing me, what have your daily activities
been?"

"When you ask me about my daily activities, I can't open my mouth," the Layman replied.

"Just because I know you are thus I now ask you," said Shih-t'ou. Whereupon the Layman offered this verse:

My daily activities are not unusual,
I'm just naturally in harmony with them.
Grasping nothing, discarding nothing,
In every place there's no hindrance, no conflict.
Who assigns the ranks of vermilion and purple?
The hills' and mountains' last speck of dust
is extinguished.
[My] supernatural power and marvelous activity—
Drawing water and carrying firewood.

Shih-t'ou gave his assent. Then he asked: "Will you put on black robes or will you continue wearing
white?"

"I want to do what I like," replied the Layman. So he did not shave his head or dye his clothing.

 

I don't think this particular Zen story is about doing the same things after enlightenment as before.  Here's why:
 

Cleave a (piece of) wood, I am there;
lift up the stone and you will find Me there.

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, pg 43 log. 77, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

The supernatural power is one-pointedness of mind, such as is automatic in splitting wood or lifting a heavy stone, drawing water or carrying firewood. Sometimes, if your mind is in the right place!

Gautama described a mindfulness that was his own way of living "most of the time, especially in the rainy season".  The sixteen observations or "contemplations" that made up that mindfulness were to be observed or contemplated in connection with breathing in and in connection with breathing out.  He said that particular mindfulness was his way of living before he was enlightened, and after he was enlightened, so there is something that is the same before and after. 

You don't hear about it, because in order to make it fly, a  person has to be able to touch on the cessation of habit and volition in activity of the body, in particular on the cessation of habit and volition in the activity of breathing. That's how I experience it, anyway, and then only out of necessity, but sometimes necessity shows up in daily life unexpectedly.

Mostly at the tail end of the sitting, so a far cry from a way of living "most of the time", for me. That's ok, at least I can practice it, even if "whatever you imagine it to be, it is otherwise" (as Gautama described the concentrations).

Gautama returned to one-pointedness of mind after he spoke:

 

And I… at the close of (instructional discourse), steady, calm, make one-pointed and concentrate my mind subjectively in that first characteristic of concentration in which I ever constantly abide.
 

(MN 36, Pali Text Society vol. I p 303; emphasis added)

That's why, as Layman Pang said, the snowflakes "only fall here."
 

[Keith108]

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

Someone named "Meido" posted this on dharmawheel.net, in response to the line you're referring to as "the adage"--I would assume that Meido is Meido Moore, the Rinzai teacher in Wisconsin:

Here from the Ruth Fuller Sasaki translation:

 

ONE DAY SHIH-T'OU said to the Layman: "Since seeing me, what have your daily activities
been?"

"When you ask me about my daily activities, I can't open my mouth," the Layman replied.

"Just because I know you are thus I now ask you," said Shih-t'ou. Whereupon the Layman offered this verse:

My daily activities are not unusual,
I'm just naturally in harmony with them.
Grasping nothing, discarding nothing,
In every place there's no hindrance, no conflict.
Who assigns the ranks of vermilion and purple?
The hills' and mountains' last speck of dust
is extinguished.
[My] supernatural power and marvelous activity—
Drawing water and carrying firewood.

Shih-t'ou gave his assent. Then he asked: "Will you put on black robes or will you continue wearing
white?"

"I want to do what I like," replied the Layman. So he did not shave his head or dye his clothing.

 

I don't think this particular Zen story is about doing the same things after enlightenment as before.  Here's why:
 

Cleave a (piece of) wood, I am there;
lift up the stone and you will find Me there.

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, pg 43 log. 77, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

The supernatural power is one-pointedness of mind, such as is automatic in splitting wood or lifting a heavy stone, drawing water or carrying firewood. Sometimes, if your mind is in the right place!

Gautama described a mindfulness that was his own way of living "most of the time, especially in the rainy season".  The sixteen observations or "contemplations" that made up that mindfulness were to be observed or contemplated in connection with breathing in and in connection with breathing out.  He said that particular mindfulness was his way of living before he was enlightened, and after he was enlightened, so there is something that is the same before and after. 

You don't hear about it, because in order to make it fly, a  person has to be able to touch on the cessation of habit and volition in activity of the body, in particular on the cessation of habit and volition in the activity of breathing. That's how I experience it, anyway, and then only out of necessity, but sometimes necessity shows up in daily life unexpectedly.

Mostly at the tail end of the sitting, so a far cry from a way of living "most of the time", for me. That's ok, at least I can practice it, even if "whatever you imagine it to be, it is otherwise" (as Gautama described the concentrations).

Gautama returned to one-pointedness of mind after he spoke:

 

And I… at the close of (instructional discourse), steady, calm, make one-pointed and concentrate my mind subjectively in that first characteristic of concentration in which I ever constantly abide.
 

(MN 36, Pali Text Society vol. I p 303; emphasis added)

That's why, as Layman Pang said, the snowflakes "only fall here."
 

 

That is correct. Meido Moore is the abbot of Korinji In Wisconsin, US. He teaches a very traditional version of Japanese Rinzai practice, as well Shugendo and AIkido. He doesn't embroil himself much in online conversations these days. That thread is already 15 years old. Sheesh, time sure flies!

 

It's snowing outside my window. Only falling here. _/|\_

[forestofclarity]

12 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

in that case it sounds like you would say no separate minds either?  

 

If minds were truly separated, how would we communicate? And what would form the edge or boundary? 

[old3bob]

52 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

If minds were truly separated, how would we communicate? And what would form the edge or boundary? 

 

if the Self (beyond mind) was truly separate it would not be the Self...

[forestofclarity]

20 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

if the Self (beyond mind) was truly separate it would not be the Self...

 

In this case, I would say whatever one refers to as the Self is not beyond mind, but is the essence of mind. 

[old3bob]

12 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

 

In this case, I would say whatever one refers to as the Self is not beyond mind, but is the essence of mind. 

 

I would say that the essence/nature of mind is all things, thus not no-thing. 

 

or we could say, "The One" encompasses all things and is the first born of the Great Tao.

Edited yesterday at 02:11 AM by old3bob