Transcendence vs Integration

[Bindi]

The end point of integration models and transcendence models is likely to be different, because the two approaches fundamentally differ in how they engage with emotions, thoughts, and the self throughout the process of spiritual growth. The key distinction lies in how each model views the role of emotions, thoughts, and the ego in the journey toward spiritual realization and how they define the ultimate state of spiritual maturity. 

End Point of Transcendence Models

In transcendence models (such as nonduality, certain forms of Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta, Eckhart Tolle’s teachings etc.), the ultimate goal is to transcend or dissolve the ego, mental constructs, and emotions in order to experience an absolute state of unity, pure consciousness, or oneness. The focus is on the realization that the individual self is an illusion and that true liberation comes from seeing through this illusion to experience the truth of nonduality.

1. The Dissolution of the Self:
   • The end goal is to transcend the self, including thoughts, emotions, and personal identity, in order to merge with the absolute, the divine, or universal consciousness. The ultimate state is one of pure awareness, where individual identity no longer exists. In this view, the ego and emotions are seen as temporary and often illusory aspects of the mind, which are transcended in the experience of oneness.
   • The emphasis is on detachment and non-identification with the thoughts and emotions that arise within the mind. Emotions and thoughts are not integrated or worked with, but rather observed as passing phenomena, which lose their power over the individual once they are recognized as illusory.
2. Transcendence of Emotional and Mental Layers:
   • Once one achieves the awakening or realization of nonduality, the emotional and mental layers are no longer part of the self in the traditional sense. They may still arise, but they are seen as impermanent and not something the individual needs to actively engage with or resolve. The ultimate end point is a state of peace and stillness, where the mind and emotions no longer cause disturbance, and the person is in a state of detached awareness.
   • In many cases, the bypass of emotions and thoughts is viewed as necessary to reach this state of ultimate freedom. Emotions and thoughts are no longer something to be worked through or healed but simply observed without attachment or judgment.

 

End Point of Integration Models

In integration models (such as those in psychospirituality, somatic healing, trauma-informed spirituality, dream work or embodied approaches to awakening), the end goal is the integration of all aspects of the self—emotional, mental, and spiritual—into a harmonious whole. The integration of emotions and thoughts is seen as a necessary step in achieving true wholeness and authentic spiritual awakening.

1. The Wholeness of the Self:
   • The end point in integration models is not the dissolution of the self, but rather the integration and harmonization of all aspects of the person. This means that the emotional and mental bodies are acknowledged, healed, and embraced as part of the spiritual journey, rather than something to be discarded or transcended.
   • The goal is to create a state where the spiritual, mental, and emotional aspects of the self are in balanceand alignment. Rather than seeking to transcend the emotional or mental layers, the individual seeks to fully experience and process their emotions and thoughts, so that they no longer dominate or create blocks to spiritual growth. This involves self-awareness, healing trauma, and gaining emotional intelligence.
2. Embodied Spirituality:
   • The integration model tends to have an embodied approach to spirituality. Emotions, thoughts, and the body are seen as real, essential parts of the human experience that need to be worked with and integrated into one’s spiritual practice. The ultimate end point is not detachment but the full acceptance and awareness of all parts of the self—mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual.
   • The individual in the integration model becomes more authentic and whole, with a deep sense of inner peacethat arises from the healing and integration of all parts of their being, rather than the dissolution of one’s personal identity. It’s a journey of inner harmony where spiritual growth leads to a greater capacity for emotional intelligence and mental clarity, alongside spiritual awakening.

Key Differences in the End Points

1. The Role of the Self:
   • Transcendence: The self is transcended, and the ultimate state is pure awareness, nonduality, and the dissolution of ego and personal identity.
   • Integration: The self is integrated and healed, and the goal is wholeness—where emotions, thoughts, and the spiritual essence coexist in harmony.
2. Emotions and Thoughts:
   • Transcendence: Emotions and thoughts are seen as distractions or illusions that are transcended in the journey to pure consciousness or oneness.
   • Integration: Emotions and thoughts are embraced and integrated. They are healed, processed, and understood as part of the whole self, and the goal is to be whole and authentic, not detached or dissociated from emotional or mental experiences.
3. State of Consciousness:
   • Transcendence: The end point is a state of detached awareness, often described as blissful stillness or absolute unity, where the individual has dissolved the illusion of the personal self.
   • Integration: The end point is a state of peace, but one where the individual remains fully embodied, conscious of their thoughts and emotions, and capable of interacting with the world in a grounded and authentic way.
4. Spirituality:
   • Transcendence: Spirituality involves moving beyond personal experience to experience oneness with the divine or the absolute.
   • Integration: Spirituality involves a full embrace of the human experience, where spiritual awakening deepens the connection to the emotional, mental, and physical aspects of life.

Conclusion: Transcendence vs Integration 

The two models—transcendence and integration—are not inherently incompatible, but they represent different perspectives on the end goal of spiritual growth. The transcendence model seeks to go beyond the individual self, including emotions and thoughts, to achieve a pure, detached awareness of the absolute. The integration model, on the other hand, embraces the emotional, mental, and spiritual layers as part of the process of becoming whole, and the end point is embodied wholeness rather than transcendence. These paths may differ in approach, but both aim toward a form of liberation, just understood differently.

[liminal_luke]

Or could it be that the apparent differences between integration and transcendence are illusory, two sides of the same spiritual coin?  Of course there are all kinds of traditions practicing all sorts of ways; perhaps some teachers really do skip over the body and the emotions in their race to transcendence.  But for me, the paths that seem most genuine will always include both approaches rather going either/or.  Integration can be a path to transcendence.  Engaging courageously with the personal and specific opens the door to that which is universal.

Edited Thursday at 03:10 AM by liminal_luke

[Bindi]

56 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Or could it be that the apparent differences between integration and transcendence are illusory, two sides of the same spiritual coin?  Of course there are all kinds of traditions practicing all sorts of ways; perhaps some teachers really do skip over the body and the emotions in their race to transcendence.  But for me, the paths that seem most genuine will always include both approaches rather going either/or.  Integration can be a path to transcendence.  Engaging courageously with the personal and specific opens the door to that which is universal.

You propose that integration can be a path to transcendence, but then transcendence still seems to take precedence as the ultimate goal. This seems to reinforce the hierarchical framing of transcendence over integration - where integration is framed as a means to an end (transcendence), rather than as a value in itself. 

 

What would it look like if integration was not a stepping stone to transcendence but was a valid and meaningful path on its own. 

What if integration doesn’t need to lead anywhere (transcendence or otherwise) but is instead about living fully within the layers of being which embraces the richness of emotions, the clarity of thought, and the depth of spiritual connection without the need to move beyond or dismiss these experiences. FWIW Integration as I mean it does include connection to one’s inner spirit, perhaps this connection to inner spirit is what you mean by transcendence? So in my mind integration values emotions, thoughts and spirituality, whereas transcendence only values spirituality. 

Ramana Maharshi used to go into deep meditation and when he returned to normal consciousness he could never describe what it was like in deep meditation, he couldn’t quite recall it. That to me is transcendence, he transcended normal consciousness, and where he went in meditation was more spiritual, more profound, qualitatively better. To me integration leads to becoming connected to that deep inner state, and having the ability to be able to remember it and speak about it. 

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

Bindi, is someone being quoted being quoted?   I like Luke's take using a balance of both approaches, otherwise things will probably go awry...

[idquest]

For me, either one is a tool for the other, so the dichotomy is a false one. One cannot integrate unless having achieved transcended states which need to be integrated anyway. And the other way - to transcend, one needs all the power that integration generates (or perhaps not only power but also uninhibited connection and energy exchange between different levels of reality).

[Bindi]

A question: Can transcendence exist without implying the need to 'go beyond' thoughts, emotions, or the ego? 
 

[old3bob]

the Transcendent being the Source of all those has always existed, although without  such matrix's for interaction to manifest some say "God "  is lonely,  (a human notion) and thus the Mysteries got rolling resulting in endless cosmic cycles of everything.... 

[doc benway]

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

A question: Can transcendence exist without implying the need to 'go beyond' thoughts, emotions, or the ego? 
 

 

Yes, in my approach transcendence and integration are different aspects of one process.

[liminal_luke]

"You got chocolate in my peanut butter!" -- Two great tastes that taste good together.  

 

(from the Reese´s commercial)

[idquest]

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

A question: Can transcendence exist without implying the need to 'go beyond' thoughts, emotions, or the ego? 
 

 

An analogy would be whether a smartphone goes beyond postal pigeon or not. Yes and no. Yes - because it certainly goes beyond and less technologically advanced nations take smartphones as unexplainable magic. No - because smartphones are just a point in the evolution in technology. Same with spiritual transcendence. As soon as it has been reached, it is just a point on a spectrum of spirit evolution.

 

All is a hypothesis for me as I have not reached transcended states yet myself 

Edited Thursday at 03:09 PM by idquest

[Cobie]

integration = transcendence

 

 

Edited Friday at 12:04 AM by Cobie

[stirling]

That is very thoughtfully written explanation Bindi, thank you for sharing it. Where does it come from?

 

Speaking for myself, in MY experience the ideas of transcendence and integration present a false dichotomy.

 

What I have seen be the case is that before "awakening" there is an identification with the internal mental dialogue, which we most often identify with "self". At some point a variation on meditation practice is encountered where it is noticed in stillness that pure awareness can watch the internal dialogue do its thing - constructing "self" moment-to-moment - but ISN'T "self". Commonly this is expressed as, "I am not my thoughts". This is actually fairly simple to accomplish, and on its OWN demonstrates that suffering can be attenuated by meditation practice, as the Buddha (amongst others) suggested.

 

Once this is realized there is reinforcement of the efficacy of identification with the awareness, rather than the internal dialogue. Suffering is reduced. Sometimes, with continued refinement and practice with this initial understanding, at some point identification flips for a moment and it is understood that awareness is actually the real primary "identity". This is where the idea of "Self" in some practices and religions comes from, in my opinion. A little further down the road, in another shift, all identification with the thought process, drops and this part of the path is completed. Even though this identification has dropped out, the world we are all used to seeing, of cars, people, trees, and everything else, goes nowhere. The content of the world isn't changed in the slightest, it is HOW the world is seen that changes. Same world, seen differently. 

 

So, going back to the models, there IS no transcendence. The world is as it always has been. You still see "you" live your life, have your friends and loved ones, feel feelings, only there is no attachment or aversion to what happens. You don't identify with the story of your "self", even though it continues, have no attachments to the identities or fictions you constructed around yourself or others. You love and are loved, but increasingly your dislike, bias, anger, etc. dry up. They aren't needed, and were only propped up by your mental story about being a separate person in a world of separate people where things could, should, or need to be different than they are. Is there future transcendence? How would you know? Transcendence of WHAT?

 

Similarly there is no integration. There isn't anyone TO integrate, and isn't anything to integrate with. The carefully curated and constructed "self" you once believed you were starts to unravel where you had attachment or aversion, but it is a natural process unguided by the awareness you now are, and comes about because there is no longer any driver to curate or construct the illusory "self" you once believed was "you". 

 

Much of this is guided by the other primary insights that come with realization: seeing through the illusion of time and space. That would be a much longer post, but for example, if you knew that this moment was the only real one, how would an attachment to what happens next make sense beyond what you do NOW (how you respond to THIS moment)?

 

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

A question: Can transcendence exist without implying the need to 'go beyond' thoughts, emotions, or the ego? 

 

The idea of transcendence IS the idea of going beyond I think. In my experience, thoughts emotion and ego don't go anywhere, but are realized to be external to what we really are. Without reinforcement, they lose potency and the negative qualities once propped up by attachment and aversion to reality. 

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, stirling said:

That is very thoughtfully written explanation Bindi, thank you for sharing it. Where does it come from?

 

Speaking for myself, in MY experience the ideas of transcendence and integration present a false dichotomy.

 

 

The idea that nonduality subsumes all dualities and dichotomies is a fundamental perspective from a nondualist POV. 

 

4 hours ago, stirling said:

What I have seen be the case is that before "awakening" there is an identification with the internal mental dialogue, which we most often identify with "self". At some point a variation on meditation practice is encountered where it is noticed in stillness that pure awareness can watch the internal dialogue do its thing - constructing "self" moment-to-moment - but ISN'T "self". Commonly this is expressed as, "I am not my thoughts". This is actually fairly simple to accomplish, and on its OWN demonstrates that suffering can be attenuated by meditation practice, as the Buddha (amongst others) suggested.

 

 

I can still feel both physical and emotional pain even if I don’t identify with my thoughts, only If I am unconscious will these things disappear. 

 

4 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Once this is realized there is reinforcement of the efficacy of identification with the awareness, rather than the internal dialogue. Suffering is reduced. Sometimes, with continued refinement and practice with this initial understanding, at some point identification flips for a moment and it is understood that awareness is actually the real primary "identity". This is where the idea of "Self" in some practices and religions comes from, in my opinion. A little further down the road, in another shift, all identification with the thought process, drops and this part of the path is completed. Even though this identification has dropped out, the world we are all used to seeing, of cars, people, trees, and everything else, goes nowhere. The content of the world isn't changed in the slightest, it is HOW the world is seen that changes. Same world, seen differently. 

 

So, going back to the models, there IS no transcendence. The world is as it always has been. You still see "you" live your life, have your friends and loved ones, feel feelings, only there is no attachment or aversion to what happens.

 

 

Say you have physical pain caused by a repetitive action, that pain is a signal to your body to stop that action. But with no attachment or aversion you are free to continue that action, but it is at the expense of your body’s health. Feelings are similarly feedback to the organism, in fact I think they are indirect representations of karma. Being able to disattach from them I would argue steers you away from grappling with the very thing that keeps us bound. 

 

4 hours ago, stirling said:

You don't identify with the story of your "self", even though it continues, have no attachments to the identities or fictions you constructed around yourself or others. You love and are loved, but increasingly your dislike, bias, anger, etc. dry up. They aren't needed, and were only propped up by your mental story about being a separate person in a world of separate people where things could, should, or need to be different than they are. Is there future transcendence? How would you know? Transcendence of WHAT?

 

Haven’t you transcended thoughts and emotions specifically? 

 

4 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Similarly there is no integration. There isn't anyone TO integrate, and isn't anything to integrate with. The carefully curated and constructed "self" you once believed you were starts to unravel where you had attachment or aversion, but it is a natural process unguided by the awareness you now are, and comes about because there is no longer any driver to curate or construct the illusory "self" you once believed was "you". 

 

What if “you” is still a carefully curated self, this time just an unattached and non-averse self, but still bound by karma and samskaras behind the scenes? 

 

4 hours ago, stirling said:

Much of this is guided by the other primary insights that come with realization: seeing through the illusion of time and space. That would be a much longer post, but for example, if you knew that this moment was the only real one, how would an attachment to what happens next make sense beyond what you do NOW (how you respond to THIS moment)?

 

 

I suspect you were exposed to this teaching conceptually, which can reduce the value of it as a “realisation”. One can articulate deep truths and quote them, but until those insights are felt directly, the impact remains superficial. I think this is a very real danger with nondual paths in general. 

 

4 hours ago, stirling said:

 

The idea of transcendence IS the idea of going beyond I think. In my experience, thoughts emotion and ego don't go anywhere, but are realized to be external to what we really are.
 

 

This is transcendence. In an integrated path, thoughts and emotions are an intrinsic and integral part of who we really are, even when our spiritual aspect is understood and experienced. They are valuable and the whole is less when they are considered to be external to what we really are. 

 

4 hours ago, stirling said:

Without reinforcement, they lose potency and the negative qualities once propped up by attachment and aversion to reality. 

All thoughts and feelings lose potency, thus they have been transcended. 

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

The idea that non-duality subsumes all dualities and dichotomies is a fundamental perspective from a nondualist POV.

 

Yes, you might say that from a conceptual perspective.

 

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

I can still feel both physical and emotional pain even if I don’t identify with my thoughts, only If I am unconscious will these things disappear. 

 

In my case, there is just sensation. The body may shrink from some sensations, and there can be generally brief emotional reactions to things that happen where there is awareness. There is liberation from the 1st Arrow. See below.

 

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

Say you have physical pain caused by a repetitive action, that pain is a signal to your body to stop that action. But with no attachment or aversion you are free to continue that action, but it is at the expense of your body’s health. Feelings are similarly feedback to the organism, in fact I think they are indirect representations of karma. Being able to disattach from them I would argue steers you away from grappling with the very thing that keeps us bound.

 

Pain is felt, but isn't identified with. The Buddha explains this well:

 

Sallatha Sutta: The Arrow

 

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

Haven’t you transcended thoughts and emotions specifically? 

 

No. Thoughts and emotions arise naturally, like everything else in the universe, they just aren't "mine". 

 

Here is Zen teacher Bankei's short exposition on the point I am trying to get across here:

 

Quote

Bankei to his assembly: 

 

Your unborn mind is the Buddha-mind itself, and it is unconcerned with either birth or death. As evidence of this, when you look at things, you're able to see and distinguish them all at once. And as you are doing that, if a bird sings or a bell tolls, or other noises or sounds occur, you hear and recognize each of them too, even though you haven't given rise to a single thought to do so. Everything in your life, from morning until night, proceeds in this same way, without your having to depend upon thought or reflection. But most people are unaware of that; they think everything is a result of their deliberation and discrimination. That's a great mistake.

 

The mind of the Buddhas and the minds of ordinary men are not two different minds. Those who strive earnestly in their practice because they want to attain satori, or to discover their self-mind, are likewise greatly mistaken. Everyone who recites the Heart Sutra knows that "the mind is unborn and undying.” But they haven't sounded the source of the Unborn. They still have the idea that they can find their way to the unborn mind and attain Buddhahood by using reason and discrimination. As soon as the notion to seek Buddhahood or to attain the Way enters your mind, you've gone astray from the Unborn—gone against what is unborn in you.

 

Anyone who tries to become enlightened thereby falls out of the Buddha-mind and into secondary matters. You are Buddhas to begin with. There's no way for you to become Buddhas now for the first time. Within this original mind, there isn't even a trace of illusion. Nothing, I can assure you, ever arises from within it. When you clench your fists and run about, for example—that's the Unborn. If you harbor the least notion to become better than you are or the slightest inclination to seek something, you turn your back on the Unborn. There's neither joy nor anger in the mind you were born with—only the Buddha-mind with its marvelous illuminative wisdom that enlightens all things. Firmly believing in this and being free of all attachment whatsoever... that is known as the "believing mind." - From "Unborn, The Life and Teachings of Zen Master Bankei"

What is described by Bankei is actually a fairly simple thing to see experientially - all that is necessary is an average meditation practice lasting a month or so and some pointing out by an experienced teacher. This is a substantial first lesson on the path.

 

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

What if “you” is still a carefully curated self, this time just an unattached and non-averse self, but still bound by karma and samskaras behind the scenes? 

 

What I am arises naturally, and uncontrived, moment to moment, just like the rest of the universe, and always has. What you suggest would imply someone existing that has a long term intention or drive to "be" something. That isn't happening here. Karma and samskaras belong to a "self" - neither arise here. 

 

How would you know if your idea is true, or mine is? Does it matter? Ideas and opinions aren't ultimately of any importance. Finding out for YOURSELF is the actual point of talking about it. If you aren't driven to pursue it, I understand, but your initial question IS a question about non-dual/unity understanding. This is what "Awareness of the Absolute" actual is.

 

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

I suspect you were exposed to this teaching conceptually, which can reduce the value of it as a “realisation”.

 

I was exposed to a number of teachings, but wasn't sure what had actually shifted until I had some contact with my Buddhist teachers. It wasn't what I was expecting at ALL. None of the descriptions I had read before or since capture it exactly. I love this quote for that reason:

 

Quote

“The awakened mind is turned upside down and does not accord even with the Buddha-wisdom.” - Hui Hai

 

Paths are for BEFORE you have realization. Realization shows you that the path was just a map, not the terrain. 

 

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

One can articulate deep truths and quote them, but until those insights are felt directly, the impact remains superficial.

 

I agree with this statement completely. It is experiential knowledge that is valuable, not intellectual contrivance.

 

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

I think this is a very real danger with nondual paths in general.

 

What would the danger be exactly? Pretending to get it? Few actually bother with that, and they are easy to pick out. Most of them are kind, and want relieve samsara where they see it. 

 

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

This is transcendence. In an integrated path, thoughts and emotions are an intrinsic and integral part of who we really are, even when our spiritual aspect is understood and experienced. They are valuable and the whole is less when they are considered to be external to what we really are.

 

On the path, thoughts and emotions are the fuel for transformation. There are integral to the "self", and understanding how it is built and causes suffering. After there is realization, there are still thoughts and emotions, but they are realized to be part of the larger field of experience.

 

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

All thoughts and feelings lose potency, thus they have been transcended. 

 

And yet they still appear, and are referential to the Relative world. Not transcended at all, now seen with great clarity in their real context. 

[old3bob]

except that potency for joy and  love per a karma yoga aspect expands,  thus the ball game is not void of humanity or lost in the rote droning of non-dual intellectual abstractions.

[stirling]

34 minutes ago, old3bob said:

except that potency for joy and  love per a karma yoga aspect expands,  thus the ball game is not void of humanity or lost in the rote droning of non-dual intellectual abstractions.

 

Absolutement, mon ami!

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Yes, you might say that from a conceptual perspective.

 

 

In my case, there is just sensation. The body may shrink from some sensations, and there can be generally brief emotional reactions to things that happen where there is awareness. There is liberation from the 1st Arrow. See below.

 

 

Pain is felt, but isn't identified with. The Buddha explains this well:

 

Sallatha Sutta: The Arrow

 

 

From the Sallatha Sutra: “The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows; in the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental.

"As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is resistant. Any resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he delights in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person does not discern any escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure.”

 

As you say feel it but don’t identify with it. But, redirecting attention to sensual pleasure is not the only alternative. Perhaps that was the only alternative the Buddha could imagine. True emotional healing engages directly with the emotional pain: 

 

…emotional pain remains alive inside of our own bodies whereas physical pain is simply a non-living memory. 

To beat chronic patterns of emotional pain, the most effective thing to do is re-trigger the memory of the pain.

It seems counterintuitive to intentionally move toward the painful emotional memory, but this is precisely what our most evidence-based treatments for anxiety indicate. 

Volitionally retriggering the emotional pain allows your brain to have the space it needs to recode the meaning of the event. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/reasonable-sanity/202111/the-thing-no-one-told-you-about-your-emotional-pain

 

What happens to the emotional pain that remains alive inside of your own body when it isn’t identified with? Does it just go away because you don’t identify with your thoughts and feelings? 

 

Quote

 

 

No. Thoughts and emotions arise naturally, like everything else in the universe, they just aren't "mine". 

 

 

Here is Zen teacher Bankei's short exposition on the point I am trying to get across here:

 

What is described by Bankei is actually a fairly simple thing to see experientially - all that is necessary is an average meditation practice lasting a month or so and some pointing out by an experienced teacher. This is a substantial first lesson on the path.

 

 

What I am arises naturally, and uncontrived, moment to moment, just like the rest of the universe, and always has. What you suggest would imply someone existing that has a long term intention or drive to "be" something. That isn't happening here. Karma and samskaras belong to a "self" - neither arise here. 

 

I have come across the understanding of karma in nonduality philosophy, where no self equates with no karma. This is likely to be academic to you, but underneath your no self, there may still be an underlying "self" subtly bound by these forces, a self that exists on a deeper causal level, unseen and unheard because that self can only be seen and heard via feelings, which is a catch 22 to a realised nondualist. 

 

Quote

How would you know if your idea is true, or mine is? Does it matter?
 

 

It matters, because the ideas we have about solving issues will actually lead to different outcomes, and some outcomes are better than other outcomes. 

 

Quote

 

Ideas and opinions aren't ultimately of any importance. Finding out for YOURSELF is the actual point of talking about it. If you aren't driven to pursue it, I understand, but your initial question IS a question about non-dual/unity understanding. This is what "Awareness of the Absolute" actual is.

 

 

I was exposed to a number of teachings, but wasn't sure what had actually shifted until I had some contact with my Buddhist teachers. It wasn't what I was expecting at ALL. None of the descriptions I had read before or since capture it exactly. I love this quote for that reason:

 

 

Paths are for BEFORE you have realization. Realization shows you that the path was just a map, not the terrain. 

 

 

I agree with this statement completely. It is experiential knowledge that is valuable, not intellectual contrivance.

 

 

What would the danger be exactly? Pretending to get it? Few actually bother with that, and they are easy to pick out. Most of them are kind, and want relieve samsara where they see it. 

 

 

I think the danger is that as far as I can make out the subtle energy body is the backdrop for nondual realisation, but the causal layer is the true underlying driver. This causal layer is completely impervious to anything happening on the subtle level apart from kundalini, and nondualists put no value in kundalini. 

 

Quote

 

On the path, thoughts and emotions are the fuel for transformation. There are integral to the "self", and understanding how it is built and causes suffering. After there is realization, there are still thoughts and emotions, but they are realized to be part of the larger field of experience.

 

 

And yet they still appear, and are referential to the Relative world. Not transcended at all, now seen with great clarity in their real context. 

 

Edited Friday at 04:42 AM by Bindi

[Bindi]

15 hours ago, Cobie said:

integration = transcendence

 

 

Black = White

[johndoe2012]

There is awakening to your true nature and then there is the ongoing working on issues using therapy, energy healing etc etc. 

 

Spiritual bypassing is easily done if you are used to suppressing yourself, it is better to release issues. 

 

Personally I use different tools for releasing issues because focusing mainly on transcendence invokes spiritual bypassing in my system and is thus fake realization. Real realization is a non intellectual release in my opinion, not a straight jacket you put on and celebrate the end of the path. 

[old3bob]

there is chipping away on the inside of a shell to get out, there is also a chipping away on the outside of that shell for freedom.  (are the chippers really the same but in different phases?)

 

 

Edited Friday at 01:19 PM by old3bob

[liminal_luke]

@Bindi

 

This isn´t your first transcendence / integration rodeo.  I remember threads addressing this question years ago, and the topic seems to be of great and lasting interest to you.  If you care to share, I think it might turn the conversation in a useful direction to know a little bit more about the history of your interest in this area and why it seems important to you.  (Of course I understand if you´d rather not share.)

[Keith108]

My apologies, I haven't read the whole thread. But, I thought the OP was well thought out and presented.

 

There is a blog called "Awakening to Reality", where various stages are presented which, using the op's presentation, start with integration and end with transcendence (although they make the point that they are not necessarily sequential). 

 

Anyway, just posting this in the event it may be helpful reading to someone. I find commonality with both integration and transcendence in my own practice (a Western offshoot of Korean Seon (Zen) Buddhism. It isn't an either/or situation for me. 

 

_/|\_

[stirling]

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

As you say feel it but don’t identify with it. But, redirecting attention to sensual pleasure is not the only alternative. Perhaps that was the only alternative the Buddha could imagine.

 

The Buddha isn't saying it is the only alternative, but that it is the alternative commonly sought by those that don't have the alternative of a practice. The Buddha's ultimate alternative is Nirodha (cessation) which is caused by complete realization. In the interim there is learning to identify with awareness rather than "self". In spacious awareness there is temporary Nirodha and great clarity about personal attachment and aversion. Suffering can often be dropped quickly once the process that creates "2nd Arrow" suffering is understood. I have around 10 students at this stage, processing their karma, and dropping their self-imposed suffering with various degrees of success. It is quite possible to learn to do within a few weeks or a month. 

 

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

True emotional healing engages directly with the emotional pain: 

 

…emotional pain remains alive inside of our own bodies whereas physical pain is simply a non-living memory. 

To beat chronic patterns of emotional pain, the most effective thing to do is re-trigger the memory of the pain.

It seems counterintuitive to intentionally move toward the painful emotional memory, but this is precisely what our most evidence-based treatments for anxiety indicate. 

Volitionally retriggering the emotional pain allows your brain to have the space it needs to recode the meaning of the event. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/reasonable-sanity/202111/the-thing-no-one-told-you-about-your-emotional-pain

 

Absolutely. See above. In fact recalling emotional wounds in meditation, examining their roots and allow those feelings to fall away is part of the process.  These wounds, but also opinions and ideas that are deeply clung to, are obscurations that create karma and color the way the world is seen. They are also processed. Eventually, with some skill, karma is processed as it forms, so that there is no new karma being created.

 

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

What happens to the emotional pain that remains alive inside of your own body when it isn’t identified with? Does it just go away because you don’t identify with your thoughts and feelings?

 

Emotional pain happens because of attachment or aversion to reality. Where attachment and aversion drop out, there IS no trauma. The  Traumatic events can be remembered still, but encounter no reactivity or resistance (tension) in the body. 

 

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

I have come across the understanding of karma in nonduality philosophy, where no self equates with no karma. This is likely to be academic to you, but underneath your no self, there may still be an underlying "self" subtly bound by these forces, a self that exists on a deeper causal level, unseen and unheard because that self can only be seen and heard via feelings, which is a catch 22 to a realised nondualist.

 

That would be news to me. I've never heard of anything like that. Usually there is awakening, then some years later (around 10) another awakening style event that signals complete anatta. All of that has taken place here, with stability for about 10 years beyond. If something changes I'll let you know, but I'm not concerned. People have been following these paths for thousands of years, I'm sure there would be more talk about such event if they occurred with any frequency. Frankly, from my perspective, such a thing would be impossible. 

 

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

It matters, because the ideas we have about solving issues will actually lead to different outcomes, and some outcomes are better than other outcomes.

 

There can be only one outcome, in my opinion. 

 

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

I think the danger is that as far as I can make out the subtle energy body is the backdrop for nondual realisation, but the causal layer is the true underlying driver. This causal layer is completely impervious to anything happening on the subtle level apart from kundalini, and nondualists put no value in kundalini. 

 

All of those things are fine when you are on the path and primarily working through relative practices. In the raft analogy, the Buddha dharma is no longer needed when the path is complete. So it is with any relative practice. 

[Cobie]

 

9 hours ago, Bindi said:

Black = White

 

Yes it is in spirituality. When I wholeheartedly embraced the ‘black’, it eventually became equal to ‘white’; integration = transcendence.

 

 

Edited Friday at 06:00 PM by Cobie

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

The Buddha isn't saying it is the only alternative, but that it is the alternative commonly sought by those that don't have the alternative of a practice. The Buddha's ultimate alternative is Nirodha (cessation) which is caused by complete realization. In the interim there is learning to identify with awareness rather than "self". In spacious awareness there is temporary Nirodha and great clarity about personal attachment and aversion. Suffering can often be dropped quickly once the process that creates "2nd Arrow" suffering is understood. I have around 10 students at this stage, processing their karma, and dropping their self-imposed suffering with various degrees of success. It is quite possible to learn to do within a few weeks or a month. 

 

 

The idea that you could actually process karma via a mentally clouded and emotionally reactive mind within a few weeks or a month is laughable. Identifying with awareness rather than the self changes the goal posts, and this may indeed take a few weeks or a month if the mind is willing to follow this path, but karma itself is untouched.  

 

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

 

Absolutely. See above. In fact recalling emotional wounds in meditation, examining their roots and allow those feelings to fall away is part of the process.  These wounds, but also opinions and ideas that are deeply clung to, are obscurations that create karma and color the way the world is seen. They are also processed. Eventually, with some skill, karma is processed as it forms, so that there is no new karma being created.

 

 

“examining their roots” sounds like a mental endeavour? How might a clouded mind go about examining the roots of emotional wounds, which are ultimately rooted in karma in the well hidden causal level? 

 

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Emotional pain happens because of attachment or aversion to reality.
 

 

Attachment to reality causes emotional pain? Reality is how it is. Being attached to reality sounds like a good place to be, being unattached to reality is a place I wouldn’t risk going to. I agree we can be averse to reality, and the best way to deal with that is to sit with the emotional pain for as long as it takes to process. This is attachment to reality as it is, and will resolve emotional pain over time. Leaving the emotional pain arena by identifying with awareness is the ultimate aversion tactic. 

 

2 hours ago, stirling said:

Where attachment and aversion drop out, there IS no trauma. The  Traumatic events can be remembered still, but encounter no reactivity or resistance (tension) in the body. 

 

 

Trauma may be silenced and remain unfelt, but if it isn’t processed it will remain as karma for another day or another life. 

 

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

That would be news to me. I've never heard of anything like that. Usually there is awakening, then some years later (around 10) another awakening style event that signals complete anatta. All of that has taken place here, with stability for about 10 years beyond. If something changes I'll let you know, but I'm not concerned. People have been following these paths for thousands of years, I'm sure there would be more talk about such event if they occurred with any frequency. Frankly, from my perspective, such a thing would be impossible. 

 

 

There can be only one outcome, in my opinion. 

 

 

All of those things are fine when you are on the path and primarily working through relative practices. In the raft analogy, the Buddha dharma is no longer needed when the path is complete. So it is with any relative practice.