Transcendence vs Integration

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

Can you specify what you mean by delusion/ignorance in the context of karma?

 

 

Not knowing one’s true nature as consciousness in which all phenomena arise and dissipate, when action (karma) is taken in pursuit of pleasure or in avoidance of pain, it sets into motion patterns of behavior that accumulate and lead to more such action. In essence a chain reaction of actions leading to more action.

[Bindi]

46 minutes ago, dwai said:

Not knowing one’s true nature as consciousness in which all phenomena arise and dissipate, when action (karma) is taken in pursuit of pleasure or in avoidance of pain, it sets into motion patterns of behavior that accumulate and lead to more such action. In essence a chain reaction of actions leading to more action.

 

Does moving toward pain mean that I am not acting ignorantly?  If ignorance arises when we act out of fear, desire, or unconscious reaction to pleasure or pain, then moving towards pain might be a way to bypass this ignorance. 
 

By moving towards emotional pain and examining false thoughts and beliefs this is effectively clearing Ida and Pingala nadi’s. This in turn leads to the waking of kundalini, unwilled and without effort, and kundalini then carries out her work of cutting the granthis and loosening the grip of karma in the causal body. Understanding my true nature follows from observing this action, and doing my part in the process. 

 

For me, real transformation requires emotional, mental, and spiritual and energy work. I now believe that only Kundalini can dissolve karma, samskaras, and granthis completely and relatively quickly once ida and pingala are cleared and flowing. Kundalini is the only force that activates and transforms at a level deeper than mere thought or will. Kundalini energy is what actually removes the karma generator, the ingrained patterns, and energetic blockages because Kundalini is capable of working at the causal level as well as a deep subtle body level, transforming and dissolving patterns and blockages that are too deep for mental effort or willpower to reach.

 

I disagree with the idea that intention or understanding alone can break karma, and this system has a bad track record anyway of removing samskaras, all sorts of excuses are made for why samskaras remain in the nondual awakened.
 

For me, Kundalini is the key to true liberation from the cycle of karma and samskaras, and it starts with owning and processing emotional baggage. 

 

 

[old3bob]

8 hours ago, doc benway said:

 

Karma is created by ignorance.

In the absence of ignorance, karma cannot accumulate. Karma is a law in the sense of physics having laws, more a description of series of observations over time.

 

Again,  it is lawful law and to just cavalierly put it in a pot as ignorance is a type of ignorance to me,....for instance a great (enlightened) master who still has a body at some level will also still have a small amount of ego for interacting in realms, which also means a small amount of karma even though they are not ignorant or accumulating  it further.   

 

Was the historic Buddha free from the workings of  karma when he ate pork and died from it?   Not too many Buddhists are going to say he was ignorant or of ignorance to do so.  (regardless of some very convoluted or double take type of explanations as to why)

Edited 12 hours ago by old3bob

[old3bob]

100% purity is the only way to survive 100% energy,  although revealing Grace does play a key a factor in getting us over the hump since who is a 100% pure?

 

if you have something to say ST just say it instead of beating around the bush with the icons.

Edited 4 hours ago by old3bob

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

Again,  it is lawful law and to just cavalierly put it in a pot as ignorance is a type of ignorance to me,

 

Please help me understand what you mean by “lawful law.” How does that differ from an unlawful law? We are not discussing jurisprudence so I am confused by this phrase.

 

In the dzogchen teachings, ignorance is a lack of realization of one’s true nature. Abiding and acting from the natural state, one does not accumulate karma. This is why dzogchen is often referred to as the most direct path and why it is said one can achieve Buddhahood in this very lifetime. 

[doc benway]

5 hours ago, old3bob said:

Was the historic Buddha free from the workings of  karma when he ate pork and died from it?   Not too many Buddhists are going to say he was ignorant or of ignorance to do so.  (regardless of some very convoluted or double take type of explanations as to why)

 

Having a human body implies being subject to karma so no, even a historic Buddha is subject to the workings of karma while inhabiting human form. This is why the fruition of the dzogchen path is said to be the rainbow body, even the limitations of the physical body are released and resolve into the five elemental lights.

Edited 7 hours ago by doc benway

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, doc benway said:

 

Please help me understand what you mean by “lawful law.” How does that differ from an unlawful law? We are not discussing jurisprudence so I am confused by this phrase.

 

In the dzogchen teachings, ignorance is a lack of realization of one’s true nature. Abiding and acting from the natural state, one does not accumulate karma. This is why dzogchen is often referred to as the most direct path and why it is said one can achieve Buddhahood in this very lifetime. 

 

dharma is,  and is not ignorance or delusion of adharma... and please don't tell us that you folks are above and beyond all of that with some fancy sounding spiritual two stepping...

Edited 6 hours ago by old3bob

[liminal_luke]

friends don´t let friends drink and post

[dwai]

13 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Does moving toward pain mean that I am not acting ignorantly?  If ignorance arises when we act out of fear, desire, or unconscious reaction to pleasure or pain, then moving towards pain might be a way to bypass this ignorance. 

in order to process emotional trauma one needs to create distance from the mind which acts on those emotions (such as experiencing sorrow, anger, guilt, depression, self-loathing etc). If you can’t do that, you can’t resolve them. One needs to first identify the problem (for which distance is needed) and then identify the cause of the problem. 

13 hours ago, Bindi said:

By moving towards emotional pain and examining false thoughts and beliefs this is effectively clearing Ida and Pingala nadi’s. This in turn leads to the waking of kundalini, unwilled and without effort, and kundalini then carries out her work of cutting the granthis and loosening the grip of karma in the causal body. Understanding my true nature follows from observing this action, and doing my part in the process. 

Any mindful repetitive action will help create the separation between the mind and the awareness. Yoga is absolutely one excellent way to do it. 

13 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

For me, real transformation requires emotional, mental, and spiritual and energy work. I now believe that only Kundalini can dissolve karma, samskaras, and granthis completely and relatively quickly once ida and pingala are cleared and flowing. Kundalini is the only force that activates and transforms at a level deeper than mere thought or will. Kundalini energy is what actually removes the karma generator, the ingrained patterns, and energetic blockages because Kundalini is capable of working at the causal level as well as a deep subtle body level, transforming and dissolving patterns and blockages that are too deep for mental effort or willpower to reach.

if it works for you, more power to you. 

13 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I disagree with the idea that intention or understanding alone can break karma, and this system has a bad track record anyway of removing samskaras, all sorts of excuses are made for why samskaras remain in the nondual awakened.

It depends on what kind of preparatory work has been done. I would venture to say that without proper purification of the mind, nondual realization is not possible. And not all samskaras are bad. For instance If you have the samskara of helping the needy, what purpose would it serve to removing it? 

13 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

For me, Kundalini is the key to true liberation from the cycle of karma and samskaras, and it starts with owning and processing emotional baggage. 

 

 

Sure, if it works for you. Do let us know how it’s panned out for you.  

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

dharma is,  and is not ignorance or delusion of adharma... and please don't tell us that you folks are above and beyond all of that with some fancy sounding spiritual two stepping...

 

Do I sound that fancy?

I do love a good two step!

 

https://tenor.com/bmZoC.gif

Edited 5 hours ago by doc benway

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, doc benway said:

 

Please help me understand what you mean by “lawful law.” How does that differ from an unlawful law? We are not discussing jurisprudence so I am confused by this phrase.

 

In the dzogchen teachings, ignorance is a lack of realization of one’s true nature. Abiding and acting from the natural state, one does not accumulate karma. This is why dzogchen is often referred to as the most direct path and why it is said one can achieve Buddhahood in this very lifetime. 

Not accumulating karma doesn’t equal removing karma you already have though does it? 

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

in order to process emotional trauma one needs to create distance from the mind which acts on those emotions (such as experiencing sorrow, anger, guilt, depression, self-loathing etc). If you can’t do that, you can’t resolve them. One needs to first identify the problem (for which distance is needed) and then identify the cause of the problem. 
 

 

This method is not “best practice,” it’s the method you were taught, and that you clearly believe, but it’s not actually the only method and it’s not necessarily the best method, simply because it’s ’always been done that way’ in your spiritual system. 

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

 

Any mindful repetitive action will help create the separation between the mind and the awareness. Yoga is absolutely one excellent way to do it. 
 

 

Then I’ll make sure I never do any yoga, because separation between the mind and awareness is not my aim. Integration of a clear mind with the Original Self or Atman is the goal. 

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

if it works for you, more power to you. 

It depends on what kind of preparatory work has been done. I would venture to say that without proper purification of the mind, nondual realization is not possible.
 

 

I recall threads where you were saying you could bring someone to nondual realisation in a matter of weeks. It wasn’t about purification then, only about realisation. Have you changed your mind? 

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

And not all samskaras are bad. For instance If you have the samskara of helping the needy, what purpose would it serve to removing it? 
 

 

Another justification of samskaras. Yes all samskaras are bad, if they’re there it’s because they are an unhealthy way of interacting, eg. If one is motivated by feeling worthless or stokes their ego from helping the needy. 

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

 

Sure, if it works for you. Do let us know how it’s panned out for you.  

 

[old3bob]

7 hours ago, old3bob said:

100% purity is the only way to survive 100% energy,  although revealing Grace does play a key a factor in getting us over the hump since who is a 100% pure?

 

if you have something to say ST just say it instead of beating around the bush with the icons.

 

bump

[Apech]

58 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

bump

 

Some things go bump in the night.

 

 

[Apech]

I've never been keen on the idea of transcendence as it seems like an abstraction to seek something always above.  But I have to admit the idea exists and has some legitimacy.  For instance it is often true that if you have a problem in life which you are struggling with, the way to see your way through it is to go above it.  Just as a general in an army might climb a hill to see the battle laid out before him, so he can see the best strategy.  It speaks to the idea of hierarchy - that we live in a world of levels - and that there is an ultimate, an ultimate good for instance.  There is a 'tree' of powers beneath whose boughs we sit, so to speak.  Also the Buddha went beyond - gate, gate, para gate, parasamgate, bodhi soha. etc.  So yes I guess that in the end I subscribe to a transcendent truth.  

 

I much prefer the idea of integration.  In fact I would suggest that even the absolute is to be integrated - so it is not an abstract but a kind of core of truth which magnetises the other aspects of being to be integrated.  In fact, the very reason we are searching at all is because of the living nature of the absolute which is 'within' us.  Like a heart.  To integrate there has to be a template but not one of our making.  A natural template if you like, such as the structure of the subtle body for instance which we do not wilfully or mentally create.  It just is.

 

Most systems seek clarity and talk of disturbing emotions.  But in tantra those emotions are also wisdom.  And wisdom in the Buddhist context means prajna, which in turn means prior or pre- knowledge.  In other words the emotions reveal to us our nature seen from a certain perspective.  At first, I think, we do have to make some space between our emotions and ourselves - just enough to be able to see clearly and to not become a cork tossed on the ocean.  But that is just a preliminary stage to help us get settled.  Thereafter we have to be more intelligent and creative than that.  The way through the emotional tangles is the way in.  Which is why, I think, that distancing emotion becomes bypassing.  

 

There is also a mistake I think about non-dual 'just sitting' or resting in the natural state.  It doesn't mean just relaxing or every 'yoga' class would be a Dzogchen class (which they patently are not).  The key I think is the union of two aspects - the luminous (awareness) and emptiness (substance/power) ... I see this as a kind of ultimate alchemical act.  Like the fusing of oil and water - somehow making ... or allowing perhaps ... that which is aware in us and that which is energetic come together such that you can realize that one exists in dependence on the other and that they are truly non-dual.  To achieve such a feat requires the work of total integration - without which the whole thing will fall apart since ordinarily our beings cannot bear this great mystery.

 

I hope this makes some sense to somebody.

 

 

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

I've never been keen on the idea of transcendence as it seems like an abstraction to seek something always above. 

 

The usual thing is to locate the transcendent above but I think we can reach the same metaphysical "place" by going within.  Abiding in the center -- wherever that is! -- we arrive at a sort of inner heaven, a place where the polarity between inner and outer, breaks down and loses meaning.  To integrate our awareness into the center is to transcend: it´s a singular process.

[old3bob]

20 minutes ago, Apech said:

I've never been keen on the idea of transcendence as it seems like an abstraction to seek something always above.  But I have to admit the idea exists and has some legitimacy.  For instance it is often true that if you have a problem in life which you are struggling with, the way to see your way through it is to go above it.  Just as a general in an army might climb a hill to see the battle laid out before him, so he can see the best strategy.  It speaks to the idea of hierarchy - that we live in a world of levels - and that there is an ultimate, an ultimate good for instance.  There is a 'tree' of powers beneath whose boughs we sit, so to speak.  Also the Buddha went beyond - gate, gate, para gate, parasamgate, bodhi soha. etc.  So yes I guess that in the end I subscribe to a transcendent truth.  

 

I much prefer the idea of integration.  In fact I would suggest that even the absolute is to be integrated - so it is not an abstract but a kind of core of truth which magnetises the other aspects of being to be integrated.  In fact, the very reason we are searching at all is because of the living nature of the absolute which is 'within' us.  Like a heart.  To integrate there has to be a template but not one of our making.  A natural template if you like, such as the structure of the subtle body for instance which we do not wilfully or mentally create.  It just is.

 

Most systems seek clarity and talk of disturbing emotions.  But in tantra those emotions are also wisdom.  And wisdom in the Buddhist context means prajna, which in turn means prior or pre- knowledge.  In other words the emotions reveal to us our nature seen from a certain perspective.  At first, I think, we do have to make some space between our emotions and ourselves - just enough to be able to see clearly and to not become a cork tossed on the ocean.  But that is just a preliminary stage to help us get settled.  Thereafter we have to be more intelligent and creative than that.  The way through the emotional tangles is the way in.  Which is why, I think, that distancing emotion becomes bypassing.  

 

There is also a mistake I think about non-dual 'just sitting' or resting in the natural state.  It doesn't mean just relaxing or every 'yoga' class would be a Dzogchen class (which they patently are not).  The key I think is the union of two aspects - the luminous (awareness) and emptiness (substance/power) ... I see this as a kind of ultimate alchemical act.  Like the fusing of oil and water - somehow making ... or allowing perhaps ... that which is aware in us and that which is energetic come together such that you can realize that one exists in dependence on the other and that they are truly non-dual.  To achieve such a feat requires the work of total integration - without which the whole thing will fall apart since ordinarily our beings cannot bear this great mystery.

 

I hope this makes some sense to somebody.

 

 

that's cool man, thanks a ton for taking the time to share your reflections!

Edited 2 hours ago by old3bob

[old3bob]

12 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

The usual thing is to locate the transcendent above but I think we can reach the same metaphysical "place" by going within.  Abiding in the center -- wherever that is! -- we arrive at a sort of inner heaven, a place where the polarity between inner and outer, breaks down and loses meaning.  To integrate our awareness into the center is to transcend: it´s a singular process.

 

which for me also brings to mind this picture/symbol besides all the other pointers out there:   

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by old3bob

[Bindi]

14 minutes ago, Apech said:

I've never been keen on the idea of transcendence as it seems like an abstraction to seek something always above.  But I have to admit the idea exists and has some legitimacy.  For instance it is often true that if you have a problem in life which you are struggling with, the way to see your way through it is to go above it.  Just as a general in an army might climb a hill to see the battle laid out before him, so he can see the best strategy.  It speaks to the idea of hierarchy - that we live in a world of levels - and that there is an ultimate, an ultimate good for instance.  There is a 'tree' of powers beneath whose boughs we sit, so to speak.  Also the Buddha went beyond - gate, gate, para gate, parasamgate, bodhi soha. etc.  So yes I guess that in the end I subscribe to a transcendent truth.  

 

I much prefer the idea of integration.  In fact I would suggest that even the absolute is to be integrated - so it is not an abstract but a kind of core of truth which magnetises the other aspects of being to be integrated.  In fact, the very reason we are searching at all is because of the living nature of the absolute which is 'within' us.  Like a heart.  To integrate there has to be a template but not one of our making.  A natural template if you like, such as the structure of the subtle body for instance which we do not wilfully or mentally create.  It just is.
 

 

subtle body structures just are - it just is. The problem is some of these structures aren’t working, they’re blocked, the right energy doesn’t flow. The fundamental basis for this flow is emotions, they are the lowest common denominator, everything is built upon them. The emotional energy signature has to be purified or transmuted when working with dantians, and that is a whole other ballgame, but emotions remain the base, not sexual energy or mental energy or spiritual energy etc. 

 

14 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Most systems seek clarity and talk of disturbing emotions.  But in tantra those emotions are also wisdom.  And wisdom in the Buddhist context means prajna, which in turn means prior or pre- knowledge.  In other words the emotions reveal to us our nature seen from a certain perspective.  At first, I think, we do have to make some space between our emotions and ourselves - just enough to be able to see clearly and to not become a cork tossed on the ocean.  But that is just a preliminary stage to help us get settled.  Thereafter we have to be more intelligent and creative than that.  The way through the emotional tangles is the way in.  Which is why, I think, that distancing emotion becomes bypassing.  

 

 

Hunnerd percent!

 

14 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

There is also a mistake I think about non-dual 'just sitting' or resting in the natural state.  It doesn't mean just relaxing or every 'yoga' class would be a Dzogchen class (which they patently are not).  The key I think is the union of two aspects - the luminous (awareness) and emptiness (substance/power) ... I see this as a kind of ultimate alchemical act.  Like the fusing of oil and water - somehow making ... or allowing perhaps ... that which is aware in us and that which is energetic come together such that you can realize that one exists in dependence on the other and that they are truly non-dual.  To achieve such a feat requires the work of total integration - without which the whole thing will fall apart since ordinarily our beings cannot bear this great mystery.
 

People have been here before, and have created words to describe these outcomes. I like the Shakti/Shiva analogy, shakti rises from her place in the root chakra in the subtle body to unite with Shiva who exists only in the causal body. The ultimate alchemical act, joining subtle and causal, truly nondual. But the mind and emotions still have a place in the subtle body system, they are part of the integrated machinery of the whole, once purified they are part of the conscious link between the subtle and the causal. 

 

14 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I hope this makes some sense to somebody.