Transcendence vs Integration

[dwai]

20 hours ago, Bindi said:

Was Freud engaged in yoga or svapna yoga, or Jung,

Jung borrowed heavily from the Hindu traditions to develop his system. So it is more than likely that he used svapna yoga and much more. 
 

Freud didn’t rise beyond his obsession with sexuality, he doesn’t count.  

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I never intimated that this was the way forward, and "you" can't disidentify with them anyway. What you can do is realize that they are a view that you distilled from your suffering that doesn't accurately portray the world. You can take the teeth out of them so that they don't color the way you experience reality. The more life you can experience without your story, the more clarity you have, and the less suffering you encounter.

 

To end suffering, we need to see reality plainly as it is, instead of through the models we build for ourselves about it. 

All spiritual methods, including nondualism, are conceptual models that offer conceptual frameworks with specific goals. Proponents of nonduality very often seem to feel these methods lead to transformations that confirm their frameworks validity, and sometimes very quickly. However, achieving a stated outcome, like nondual realisation, doesn’t necessarily prove the ultimate truth of that outcome. While nondual realisation may feel profound and internally coherent, it is not ipso facto absolute truth. 
 

You say “To end suffering, we need to see reality plainly as it is.” I agree, but reality as I see it is very different to reality as you see it. You are not automatically correct because you believe in your model and your transformation. I see nondual transformation as quite horrific, like turning my back on all the precious aspects of myself. In a dream this might be portrayed as someone in a cell with no light, no airflow, no food, locked away and ignored. I choose to act compassionately towards these aspects of myself and to work to make them healthy. Nonduality may claim that all aspects are included, nothing is being ignored, but what’s the value of including the crippled and restricted parts of myself in the rush to end my mental and emotional suffering as quickly as possible.
 

 

Edited December 30, 2024 by Bindi

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Jung borrowed heavily from the Hindu traditions to develop his system. So it is more than likely that he used svapna yoga and much more. 
 

Freud didn’t rise beyond his obsession with sexuality, he doesn’t count.  

Swami Muktananda practiced yoga and was very interested in kundalini, but there have been many sexual abuse allegations against him. One could characterise this as obsessed with sexuality, does that mean he wasn’t practicing yoga and doesn’t count? 

[dwai]

23 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Swami Muktananda practiced yoga and was very interested in kundalini, but there have been many sexual abuse allegations against him. One could characterise this as obsessed with sexuality, does that mean he wasn’t practicing yoga and doesn’t count? 

What’s that got to do with Freud?  

Freud’s theories are disproven in general in modern psychology (except for some of his ardent followers). I didn’t intend to suggest that was guilty of misconduct, just his theories are mostly invalidated. 

 

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

Stirlings response is “Karma isn't really a thing that has its own existence. Karma is a story you tell about yourself, like, "I am a vegetarian", or "I am a cancer survivor", or "I am a Buddhist", that subtly (or not so subtly) filters the way you encounter your day to day experience.” But this is itself a belief that you are filling your mind with. I imagine someone told you or you read that identifying with these stories is the problem, so you went about disidentifying from these stories. This is a conditioned response. 
 

 

 

I agree, everything conceptual is related to our karma, this is why the non-conceptual becomes the method in dzogchen. Integration is in fact the path, to bring us full circle, and occurs through naked seeing, or hosting, and abiding in that which is unconditioned and unfabricated.

[Bindi]

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

What’s that got to do with Freud?  

Freud’s theories are disproven in general in modern psychology (except for some of his ardent followers). I didn’t intend to suggest that was guilty of misconduct, just his theories are mostly invalidated. 

 

freuds obsession with sexuality disqualifies him in your opinion from being a practitioner of dream yoga. So I’m asking if muktanandas apparent obsession with sex disqualifies him from being a practitioner of yoga in your opinion. I value consistent positions. 

[Bindi]

31 minutes ago, doc benway said:

 

I agree, everything conceptual is related to our karma, this is why the non-conceptual becomes the method in dzogchen. Integration is in fact the path, to bring us full circle, and occurs through naked seeing, or hosting, and abiding in that which is unconditioned and unfabricated.

How can one abide in the unconditioned when karma and samskaras are a reality, unless karma is considered illusory? How does Dzogchen view the physical, subtle and causal bodies, are they illusory or manifestations of reality? Is there any emphasis on healing these bodies?

[Sahaja]

My understanding is that dreams are similar to discursive thought related to the acquired mind.  Focusing on them one runs the risk of getting stuck at that level. My understanding is that dreams end at some point on the spiritual path. 

 

i think methods that pursue and promote mental health are just that. Spiritual paths in my understanding are quite different. Improved mental health may be a byproduct but is not the goal of the spiritual path. However, the spiritual path may also (will likely) stress your mental health at some point, so it’s best to address health vulnerabilities prior to commencing your journey. 

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

 I see nondual transformation as quite horrific, like turning my back on all the precious aspects of myself. 

 

 

Back in the day, I used to attend 12-step meetings.  People would complain in the meeting about how awful their lives were and then we´d all go to coffee afterwards; I´d dish to my friends about how so-and-so didn´t really have it that bad and just needed to buck up.  Taobums is kind of the opposite of that.  People come on and say that they have an established spiritual practice, enjoy teaching others, and just generally seem like they´ve got their lives together.  Then we all go out to virtual coffee and dish about how they´ve deluded themselves into faux-happiness and are actually mired in horrific denial.

 

[dwai]

45 minutes ago, Bindi said:

freuds obsession with sexuality disqualifies him in your opinion from being a practitioner of dream yoga. So I’m asking if muktanandas apparent obsession with sex disqualifies him from being a practitioner of yoga in your opinion. I value consistent positions. 

No, just from providing a bona fide spiritual path. In any case, it wasn’t his objective in the first place. 

[Bindi]

30 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

My understanding is that dreams are similar to discursive thought related to the acquired mind.  Focusing on them one runs the risk of getting stuck at that level. My understanding is that dreams end at some point on the spiritual path. 

 

i think methods that pursue and promote mental health are just that. Spiritual paths in my understanding are quite different. Improved mental health may be a byproduct but is not the goal of the spiritual path. However, the spiritual path may also (will likely) stress your mental health at some point, so it’s best to address health vulnerabilities prior to commencing your journey. 

I think dream information spans the three levels of the body - physical, subtle and causal, not really much beyond that though. Nonetheless relatively objective information about issues on any of these levels is beneficial. Dream information may be superseded when one becomes fully conscious of all realities within these three bodies, but before that I see them as beneficial. I also acknowledge other forces are required beyond dreams, even to to get to the ‘spiritual’ level, I concur with the idea that true spirituality only begins once one has cut through rudra granthi, and i certainly don’t believe that can be done with dreams. In a way it’s all just a huge puzzle, and I appreciate any internally available tool to get me through it. 

[doc benway]

29 minutes ago, Bindi said:

How can one abide in the unconditioned when karma and samskaras are a reality, unless karma is considered illusory?

 

 

29 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

How does Dzogchen view the physical, subtle and causal bodies, are they illusory or manifestations of reality? Is there any emphasis on healing these bodies?

 

1 Don’t pursue the past

2 Don’t dwell in the future

3 Leave the present as it is

 

This is the view, the meditation, and the fruition. This is how one abides, in all experiences of life, eventually; fully connected to the wholeness of the present moment, clear, aware, and responsive. When there is clarity and unimpeded connection, we have a wider range of options and are not as locked into conditioned patterns. There is also an innate intelligence of response that I find analogous to wu wei.

 

Karma, like the physical, subtle, and causal bodies, not to mention the 3 bodies of Buddha, are all empty, inter-dependently arising, but as real as real gets; these are the two truths. Fancy words, conceptual words, dancing words even, … but the fewer words the better if we’re trying not to add more conditioning and complicated dance moves 🕺🏻 And it’s more than just reading and hearing and understanding the words, the next step is it must be actualized in practice so that we see it for ourselves, this is direct introduction.

 

If there is someone struggling, someone that needs healing, then appropriate methods are used to heal. When one can simply practice 1, 2, and 3, nothing else is added or taken away. Otherwise we do what we need to do. This is the direct path that takes advantage of the innate perfection of unfabricated wholeness, dzogchen.

 

And this is just one approach and clearly doesn’t appeal or open itself to everyone, just as tantric and causal practice don’t open to all. It’s only the right approach if it’s right for me. Otherwise, it may become an obstacle. Dzogchen is curiously and frustratingly prone to become an obstacle for many, hence its secrecy for millennia.

 

 

 

[old3bob]

 

"... In a way it’s all just a huge puzzle, and I appreciate any internally available tool to get me through it. " Bindi

 

is a form of surrender instead of a form of conqueror,  an internally available tool?

 

In Christian form aka, “Not my will, but yours be done” (Luke 22:42) 

 

Edited December 30, 2024 by old3bob

[Sahaja]

9 hours ago, Bindi said:

I think dream information spans the three levels of the body - physical, subtle and causal, not really much beyond that though. Nonetheless relatively objective information about issues on any of these levels is beneficial. Dream information may be superseded when one becomes fully conscious of all realities within these three bodies, but before that I see them as beneficial. I also acknowledge other forces are required beyond dreams, even to to get to the ‘spiritual’ level, I concur with the idea that true spirituality only begins once one has cut through rudra granthi, and i certainly don’t believe that can be done with dreams. In a way it’s all just a huge puzzle, and I appreciate any internally available tool to get me through it. 

Yes I think there are likely spiritual needles in the haystack of dreams (same in our waking world discursive thought) but it’s a tricky and painful process to sort through the hay   when relying on someone/something  that feels threatened by the needles (the acquired mind) to see them.

 

there are perhaps other  ways to differentiate the various spiritual paths that are useful such as the process of addition/process of subtraction or Ming/Xing.   I prefer continuums to binary systems as they are more flexible and seem to be better at accommodating all the nuances that exist (or that people believe exist.) like anything continuums have their problems too as it’s difficult to find pure anchor points at the far  edges. 

Edited December 30, 2024 by Sahaja

[Bindi]

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

"... In a way it’s all just a huge puzzle, and I appreciate any internally available tool to get me through it. " Bindi

 

is a form of surrender instead of a form of conqueror,  an internally available tool?

 

In Christian form aka, “Not my will, but yours be done” (Luke 22:42) 

 

In the right places at the right times in the right way, it’s absolutely indispensable. 

[blue eyed snake]

16 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Back in the day, I used to attend 12-step meetings.  People would complain in the meeting about how awful their lives were and then we´d all go to coffee afterwards; I´d dish to my friends about how so-and-so didn´t really have it that bad and just needed to buck up.  Taobums is kind of the opposite of that.  People come on and say that they have an established spiritual practice, enjoy teaching others, and just generally seem like they´ve got their lives together.  Then we all go out to virtual coffee and dish about how they´ve deluded themselves into faux-happiness and are actually mired in horrific denial.

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

Edited December 30, 2024 by blue eyed snake

[blue eyed snake]

interesting thread

 

Never had a spiritual practice apart from some years of intensive chigung with a teacher that did not tell me anything but: you just practice, you're doing well.

 

then later reading up on things and recognized in hindsight what terms could be stuck to some things that happened. Although @stirling  tends to rub me the wrong way he is absolutely right regarding nonduality

 

But @Bindi is also right when she says it could be a form of thinking/ a new story to believe in. I've known people like that.

 

for me nonduality is a once felt reality that nobody ever told me about, at least not in those terms just the vague talk of newagey people in my younger years. Remembering a thread here on nonduality and thinking, hey, they're talking about what happened to me

 

So after the lightning insight I went back to storytelling, but now being aware of it being just that, the building of a new story because the ego needs that story... (in fact, ego ( as I see it) is that story.)

 

through the years/decades the story changes

 

After entering a sort of next stage in my life it becomes more usual to see through the stories of others (at last...)

so when someone triggers 'me' /my story it becomes clear that person reacts from his or her story, has nothing to do with 'me'  so i can let go and try to react in such a way that he or she does not get triggered and stuck more in his or her story.

We're here to help each other after all.

 

---

then about karma, it's not something i should talk about because I am much too unlearned in that department.

Lately the thought arises that the reason we get reborn time after time is because deeply stuck emotions travel with with us life after life. There have been several memories of former lives and played back it can be seen they all were about intense emotions, deep fear, feeling of guilt, aggressive lust and anger.

 

 

[Cobie]

 

19 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Back in the day, I used to attend 12-step meetings.  People would complain in the meeting about how awful their lives were and then we´d all go to coffee afterwards; I´d dish to my friends about how so-and-so didn´t really have it that bad and just needed to buck up.  Taobums is kind of the opposite of that.  People come on and say that they have an established spiritual practice, enjoy teaching others, and just generally seem like they´ve got their lives together.  Then we all go out to virtual coffee and dish about how they´ve deluded themselves into faux-happiness and are actually mired in horrific denial.

[joke alert]  All that’s required is to change the pronouns in my head: “… so-and-soI didn´t really have it that bad and just needed to buck up.  … theyI’ve deluded themmyselves into faux-happiness and are actually mired in horrific denial.” 

 

Edited December 30, 2024 by Cobie

[doc benway]

18 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

[joke alert]  All that’s required is to change the pronouns in my head: “… so-and-soI didn´t really have it that bad and just needed to buck up.  … theyI’ve deluded themmyselves into faux-happiness and are actually mired in horrific denial.” 
 

 

 

I find it so helpful to do just this whenever possible, which equates to whenever I remember - to speak about my experience and from my perspective. I think it’s largely projection when I make assumptions about what others mean, think, or experience.

[Cobie]

1 minute ago, doc benway said:

 

I find it so helpful to do just this whenever possible, which equates to whenever I remember - to speak about my experience and from my perspective. I think it’s largely projection when I make assumptions about what others mean, think, or experience.

Totally agree, yes. I try to use only one pronoun, I (saves a lot of trouble in life too).

 

The joke (in my mind) is that it’s not easy to change things in one’s head. 
 

 

[doc benway]

Just now, Cobie said:

Totally agree, yes. I try to use only one pronoun, I (saves a lot of trouble in life too).

 

Agreed

 

Just now, Cobie said:

 

The joke (in my mind) is that it’s not easy to change things in one’s head. 
 

 

 

That’s no joke!

😆

[Cobie]

17 minutes ago, doc benway said:

… That’s no joke!

True. Seriously, putting stuff into my head comes easy; removing stuff again, that took me decades to learn.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2024 by Cobie

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, Bindi said:

freuds obsession with sexuality disqualifies him in your opinion from being a practitioner of dream yoga. So I’m asking if muktanandas apparent obsession with sex disqualifies him from being a practitioner of yoga in your opinion. I value consistent positions. 

 

My consistent opinion on it is there is a big difference between  ' sexual abuse'  and 'apparent sexual obsession' .

However both clearly represent an imbalance  so one would hope he was  a 'practitioner' of yoga , but not a 'teacher '  of yoga .

 

- please excuse my 'obsession' with semantics  .... its my Mercury  ;   ' the root of conflict is often miscommunication '.

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

In the right places at the right times in the right way, it’s absolutely indispensable. 

 

but apparently not so to some going by the fact such is hardly ever mentioned...(here)

Edited December 30, 2024 by old3bob

[old3bob]

37 minutes ago, Cobie said:

True. Seriously, putting stuff into my head comes easy; removing stuff again, that took me decades to learn.

 

 

 

 not so for me and algebra, hard to get in and easy to lose.  (although i like trig)

 

Edited December 30, 2024 by old3bob