Sir Darius the Clairvoyent Posted January 2 (edited) Do we live in an disenchanted world? How does this affect us? I’d say that the top 10 results of me googling the word, were about a TV-show, kinda proves that we do. But what’s your take? Out of laziness, I give you a section from britannica: «Weber used the German word Entzauberung, translated into English as “disenchantment” but which literally means “de-magic-ation.” More generally, the word connotes the breaking of a magic spell. For Weber, the advent of scientific methods and the use of enlightened reason meant that the world was rendered transparent and demystified. Theological and supernatural accounts of the world involving gods and spirits, for example, ceased to be plausible. Instead, one put one’s faith in the ability of science to eventually explain everything in rational terms. But, for Weber, the effect of that demystification was that the world was leeched of mystery and richness. It became disenchanted and disenchanting, predictable and intellectualized. In that sense, the disenchantment of the world is the alienating and undesirable flip side of scientific progress.» Russell Brand gave this description, which I found to be spot on: «we have made the sacred profane and the profane sacred» (something like that). Edited January 2 by Sir Darius the Clairvoyent Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith108 Posted January 2 Straight up samsara, my friend. Love Brand’s line, hits the nail on the head. Of course, the world is what we make. Samsara and nirvana are two sides of the same coin. 🙏 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Darius the Clairvoyent Posted January 2 1 hour ago, Keith108 said: Love Brand’s line, hits the nail on the head. It truly does. I also think there is an inherited flaw in the mindset describe initially: «For Weber, the advent of scientific methods and the use of enlightened reason meant that the world was rendered transparent and demystified. Theological and supernatural accounts of the world involving gods and spirits, for example, ceased to be plausible. Instead, one put one’s faith in the ability of science to eventually explain everything in rational terms.» Who says that rationality and the scientific method is the end all, be all? I remember in my teens I had this existential crisis, because I could not come up with any objective reason why what I was told was «right» and what I was told was «wrong» was based on anything objective what so ever. I read the moral landscape by Sam Harris once, where he attempted to prove objective morality… His sad attempt gave me the courage to finally reject it all together ahaha. You can’t derive an ought from an is, and either your following your own will or someone’s else. Rationality has it place, but my god does it have limits. Fear, love, tribal dynamics, drugs, faith, the afterlife…. How do you approach these things rationally? Rationality itself needs to be founded upon some sort of desired outcome or value system anyhow. And then there is yet another faulty assumption, that you can set up some sort of cost benefit evaluation on an excel spreadsheet for all the unknown and unpredictable in life. Hmm… We both agree with his statement. Why/how do you think we ended up at this place? I think a lot of it as to do with the artificial manufacturing for goods and services out of greed, basically. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Darius the Clairvoyent Posted January 2 There is this thing called the naturalistic fallacy, you all know it. To me, I think it is the only «non-fallacy.» It is the naturalistic fallacy fallacy. If you are a cat, be a cat, not a dog. If you are you, stay true to you, and in accordance/harmony with your environment/nature. I generally believe it is a good idea to look at the environment we developed in for guidance on how to live. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith108 Posted January 2 23 minutes ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said: It truly does. I also think there is an inherited flaw in the mindset describe initially: «For Weber, the advent of scientific methods and the use of enlightened reason meant that the world was rendered transparent and demystified. Theological and supernatural accounts of the world involving gods and spirits, for example, ceased to be plausible. Instead, one put one’s faith in the ability of science to eventually explain everything in rational terms.» Who says that rationality and the scientific method is the end all, be all? I remember in my teens I had this existential crisis, because I could not come up with any objective reason why what I was told was «right» and what I was told was «wrong» was based on anything objective what so ever. I read the moral landscape by Sam Harris once, where he attempted to prove objective morality… His sad attempt gave me the courage to finally reject it all together ahaha. You can’t derive an ought from an is, and either your following your own will or someone’s else. Rationality has it place, but my god does it have limits. Fear, love, tribal dynamics, drugs, faith, the afterlife…. How do you approach these things rationally? Rationality itself needs to be founded upon some sort of desired outcome or value system anyhow. And then there is yet another faulty assumption, that you can set up some sort of cost benefit evaluation on an excel spreadsheet for all the unknown and unpredictable in life. Hmm… We both agree with his statement. Why/how do you think we ended up at this place? I think a lot of it as to do with the artificial manufacturing for goods and services out of greed, basically. As always, the middle path is best. Overreliances on either magic or science will increase the effect of dukkha (dissatisfying quality of being a human being). A student once asked a teacher: "Where does suffering (dukkha) come from?" The teacher simply responded "I want". So the disenchantment comes from not getting enough of the things we want, and too much of what we don't. I guess for me, having an overreliance on rational thought is the result of thinking we understand everything. Of course, that's nonsense. An overreliance on magic would suggest living in a fantasy world. I was reading a biographical piece on Feng Zhi Quiang recently, and there was a story about him defeating an opponent with bolts of qi coming out of his eyes. So, I am not saying that's impossible, or it didn't happen. But yeah, I am going to need to see or experience something like first hand before I believe it. We have made money, fame, national identity, etc. sacred, and made humility and basic human decency profane. You mentioned one of the reasons: greed. To that I would add ignorance and hate. The world feels very out of balance right now. Not sure if that's because we are more aware of things going on in the world, due to the internet. I think we forget how fast things have changed, and are changing. When I was in college (early 90's), having a computerized word processor was some amazing tech. Things are changing too quickly for us to keep up. So, what's the solution? Heck if I know. For me, it's the path of the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. YMMV 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Darius the Clairvoyent Posted January 2 3 minutes ago, Keith108 said: So, what's the solution? Heck if I know. For me, it's the path of the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. YMMV Nobody knows. I think it’s important to find growth and peace and beauty in your path tho, and it seems you have My plan for the year, is to implement two habits religiously: meditation and working out hard every day. I believe that will bring a lot of positive side effects. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
