God is not love

[心神 ~]

 

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

One unenlightened person among many .....   what ?

 

One understands the true nature of things through experience. My limited understanding is informed by a lack of experience, and reinforced by my personal environment. So not only can I not speak to the truth of whether every phenomena is an act of love and joy, it's not something that has been shown to me by those around me, because I am not in an environment in my day to day life with people who have experienced and comprehended the true nature of things.

 

 

12 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

But from the point of view that I explained  previously  ( ie, we chose to have the experience of life ; which IS joy and suffering , hope and despair , life and death ) 

 

 

It has been my personal experience that life is joy and suffering, hope and despair, life and death. So I agree with this perspective. I don't know if we choose to come here.

 

" To us, every phenomenon is an Act of Love, every experience is necessary, is a Sacrament, is a means of Growth. Hence, ”…existence is pure joy;…“

 

I don't believe every experience, every phenomena is an act of love, because I have acted in cruel, unloving ways. I have been at the mercy of cruel, unloving ways. Not all things are done in love. We may come here in pursuit of love and joy, but we come to a place of suffering to do so.  

 

 

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

... the thing is , on the face of that statement , its a philosophy of absolute love  .... stuck into a thread about "God is not love ' .  

 

 

To your point, is God love? Are we love? Are all things love? Again, I don't know. In the absence of experience, I only have questions.

 

Do we separate from God to come here?

 

If God is the ultimate source of love and joy, what is the reason we seek to separate in order to experience what we already are and were? 

 

Are we God experiencing itself? Is physical incarnation required for that?

 

Are suffering, despair, and death acts of love? Acts of God, acts of ourselves, one and the same?

 

 

Quote

"We are not human until we undergo training for it - initiation .   Stripping it back to its basic function ( across time and locations * ) its essential purpose is to make acceptable socially based humans out of wild animals ."

 

What are we stripping away? Do we remove love to reveal love? If all things are love, why is this process necessary?

 

Edited January 21 by 心神 ~

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

 

One understands the true nature of things through experience. My limited understanding is informed by a lack of experience, and reinforced by my personal environment. So not only can I not speak to the truth of whether every phenomena is an act of love and joy, it's not something that has been shown to me by those around me, because I am not in an environment in my day to day life with people who have experienced and comprehended the true nature of things.

 

Well, in the literal everyday sense , of course . It's more of a philosophical outlook ,  or aim .    I often fail at it ... how can I explain  it .... perhaps  for a Christian, one might see it expressed in Jesus ; love your enemies  etc .    On the smaller everyday level, one could think of parental discipline , a naughty child with a 'troublesome streak' , may not see  discipline as the 'act of love'  that the parent does . 

 

Also I feel it is our natural state , when not interfered with  ... most of us may have lost that a long time ago . 

 

 

9 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

It has been my personal experience that life is joy and suffering, hope and despair, life and death. So I agree with this perspective. I don't know if we choose to come here.

 

I think that   any ' I ' that chose to come here , is far removed from the ' I  '   that undergoes the experience  ' down here '   .  From my perspective here , I don't know if I would have chosen any of this ,  or I would have changed this or that ... yet as I get older and accrue more experience  ....   sometimes I think I would not  change anything at all  . 

 

But then again, I have had a very good life ,   VERY good , so perhaps I am biased . 

 

 

9 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

" To us, every phenomenon is an Act of Love, every experience is necessary, is a Sacrament, is a means of Growth. Hence, ”…existence is pure joy;…“

 

I don't believe every experience, every phenomena is an act of love, because I have acted in cruel, unloving ways. I have been at the mercy of cruel, unloving ways. Not all things are done in love. We may come here in pursuit of love and joy, but we come to a place of suffering to do so.  

 

That can be one way of understanding it ....   everything is a pursuit to  love and joy .   For me   I have felt  'the pure joy of existence'  ... but that is just 'being'  and feeling  existence  and life , when one can get away from  the distractions and the suffering ( for some of us ) it just 'is' .   Existence is not pure joy    while  suffering ... unless you can move beyond that .

 

9 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

To your point, is God love? Are we love? Are all things love? Again, I don't know. In the absence of experience, I only have questions.

 

Do we separate from God to come here?

 

IN a way , but a connection seems to remain .  Jung called it 'the religious instinct'  and considered it part of the basic human program (along with the three mentioned by Freud ) .

 

9 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

If God is the ultimate source of love and joy, what is the reason we seek to separate in order to experience what we already are and were? 

 

Ooops , I nearly  gave you an answer from 'him who you don't want to hear from '  . 

 

My ( not as good answer ) would be :  to personally and physically experience the wonders of the Universe . 

 

 

9 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

Are we God experiencing itself?

 

 

I would not put it that way .   More like ; we are experiencing for  that 'above' aspect of ourselves .   When the explorer returns he is asked  " What did you find there " ?   I see (or don't see )  'God'  as a Long way off .  I think I am so unrefined , on that level,  that    any  'angel' I could contact  would feel the same .... maybe those in levels upon levels above them , might start to get a glimmer . 

 

9 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

Is physical incarnation required for that?

 

I think its required for the process I just outlined above .  .   

 

 

9 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

Are suffering, despair, and death acts of love? Acts of God, acts of ourselves, one and the same?

 

No .    I don't think acts of God and ourselves are one and the same .   I don't even know what 'acts of God'  are . 

 

 

9 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

What are we stripping away? Do we remove love to reveal love? If all things are love, why is this process necessary?

 

 

I don't know   ... what are we 'stripping away ' ?    

[doc benway]

On 1/14/2025 at 7:34 AM, Cadcam said:

Though it is a nice idea, and I'm sure God appreciates our love, I don't believe that God must love each of us individually as is often suggested by Christianity. 

 

God gave us free will to choose to love, and loving everyone unconditionally leads to problems.

 

No, people have to earn love.  

 

God too, has the free will to choose who to love, and can you imagine, with the billions of people born throughout history, and all their virtues, deeds, and talents; how hard it would be to attract God's attention and earn God's love?

 

 

 

I've recently started reading The Divine Comedy. In it Dante describes a certain group of the condemned as "hateful to God."

 

After I had identified a few,
I saw and recognised the shade of him
who made, through cowardice, the great refusal.

At once I understood with certainty:
this company contained the cowardly,
hateful to God and to His enemies.

 

For me, God is an idea to which I do not impute any particular characteristics.

If there is a God who is responsible for everything everyone is and encounters in life and beyond, certainly some are "loved" more than others. Children born with brittle bones, others who die of cancer, parents who lose their children, innocents enduring torture...? if God is considered all loving then our concept of love is quite strange... 

 

For me, God is a convenience that allows us to feel less insecure and less disconnected from our environment and each other.

[johndoe2012]

I once asked in a meditative state what God was and I was shown an image of a hand where each finger corresponded to a being (human, animal etc). 

 

So as God moved his hands and fingers, all beings moved also because God was the initiator of action. 

 

But it was an approximation because the human brain cannot understand the intelligence of God, it is simply too high level for us to understand. 

[Lairg]

On 1/14/2025 at 10:34 PM, Cadcam said:

I'm sure God appreciates our love, I don't believe that God must love each of us individually

 

There are two obvious issues here:

 

- Is the human concept of love relevant to The Source of All.  Perhaps right relationship is a more robust concept

 

- Is there a benefit to a human from "loving" all the cells in its body?   Are there cases of humans that disliked parts of their body, later having health problems? 

 

So it may be that like the human, The Source of All is not conscious of all of its parts, but does regard them all with good will - if only to encourage proper unfoldment of Existence

 

 

 

 

 

[NorthWide]

The post on Alestr Crowley's quote made me think of this:

 

Have you ever been so averse to something so unrigHteous and eVil that you waNted to throw up?

Perhaps as a possiBility, revulsion is an asethetic opposite of loVe? Perhaps through that type of duality, could loVe Be clearly defiNed()?

[Salvijus]

Love is the energy that creates and God is the creator of everything, therefor love is the nature of everything that exists. It's the will that governs all things. Some due to ignorance are trying to replace the will of love with the will of fear(ego) and experience great suffering because of it. Through faith in love we can let go of fear driven will and realign ourselves with the universal will of the Father/Creator. That experience of our shared interconnectidness is love. 

 

"Wisdom tells me I am nothing. Love tells me I am everything. And between the two my life flows" Nisargadatta. 

 

Edited April 6 by Salvijus

[doc benway]

"The longer I live, the more deeply I learn that love - whether we call it friendship or family or romance - is the work of mirroring each other's light. Gentle work. Steadfast work. Life-saving work in those moments when shame and sorrow occlude our own light from view, but there is still a clear-eyed loving person to beam it back. In our best moments, we are that person for another."

-James Baldwin

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 01:10 AM by doc benway

[Lairg]

>a clear-eyed loving person 

 

These days I find that movies and TV that star people that are not clear eyed and loving are not worth watching.

 

[Nungali]

You mean if they are not acting   that way   convincingly ? 

 

Ya know ....  movies ....TV ...... people are 'actors' and 'pretending '    .  

 

 

 

[Lairg]

On 4/8/2025 at 6:58 AM, Nungali said:

You mean if they are not acting   that way   convincingly ? 

 

I do not like watching humans that are not intrinsically loving - no matter what roles they are playing

 

Bogart is an obvious example, even when playing a baddie I could feel his heart was good

 

[Nungali]

A curious phenomena ;   some are like that in 'real life'    ......     the 'lovable rascal ' ... something about them is 'likable '  ... even though you will never get your money back after a loan .