Can a Daoist who sticks with the Dao and does wu wei still be a workaholic overachiever?

[Peaceful Hulk]

I mean, I'm trying to be rich here. Gotten promoted twice so far in the company and got a raise in the past. I ain't stopping anytime soon. At the same time, wu wei requires a life of solitude with nature...

 

I mean, is there a way to integrate that philosophy with a man focused on material gain?

[Sanity Check]

18 minutes ago, Peaceful Hulk said:

At the same time, wu wei requires a life of solitude with nature...

 

 

Better sound proofing insulation & more house plants?

 

 

[Peaceful Hulk]

5 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

Better sound proofing insulation & more house plants?

 

 

 

Not a bad idea.

 

Will that make a big impact in the quality of my meditations? And how relaxed I am while in my house?

 

Not a bad idea. I'm just not sure if the positive impact is substantial enough.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

12 hours ago, Peaceful Hulk said:

I mean, I'm trying to be rich here. Gotten promoted twice so far in the company and got a raise in the past. I ain't stopping anytime soon. At the same time, wu wei requires a life of solitude with nature...

 

I mean, is there a way to integrate that philosophy with a man focused on material gain?

Take nice holidays in nature

[doc benway]

13 hours ago, Peaceful Hulk said:

I mean, I'm trying to be rich here. Gotten promoted twice so far in the company and got a raise in the past. I ain't stopping anytime soon. At the same time, wu wei requires a life of solitude with nature...

 

I mean, is there a way to integrate that philosophy with a man focused on material gain?

 

Only one way to find out... try!

 

In my opinion, the question should not be "can a Daoist who sticks with the Dao and does wu wei still be a workaholic overachiever?"

It is better to ask "can I stick with the Dao and do wu wei still be a workaholic overachiever?'

Wu wei is not about doing nothing, it is about our relationship to what we are doing, and whether we align with or go against our inherent nature as a healthy, balanced, and well-adjusted human being, connected to our community and environment. 

 

If our relationship to our work is healthy and balanced, I believe we can be very busy and productive, even amass great wealth, and remain well aligned with the natural way. One problem, however, is that being extremely busy and focused on work makes it quite challenging to maintain a healthy balance; not to mention success and wealth have corrupting effects and make it difficult to align with the Way. This is why the sage tends to be more carefree, simple, and flexible. This is why so many practitioners spend time in isolation.

 

To me the words workaholic and overachiever both connote someone that is forced, unnatural, pathologic, and indicative of a dysfunctional pattern of behavior with negative consequences for oneself and others. Forcing ourselves to work in an unnatural and unhealthy manner and position are most certainly not wu wei and not in alignment with the Way.

 

My own life has been an evolving path of looking for balance between a very demanding job, hobbies and outside interests, family, and my spiritual life. I've found that it is not reasonable to expect it all to just fall into place and work out. For me, it has been about trial and error, patience, and self-acceptance; continually adjusting myself to find a balance in any given moment. This often has required compromise, sometimes sacrifice, but from a Daoist perspective I feel that balance and harmony are key concepts. And it changes over time, sometimes profoundly (eg when illness or serious injury strikes, loss, changing interests, change in partners, the birth of a child, loss of a job, etc...).

 

Good luck!

 

[Maddie]

[Peaceful Hulk]

27 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Is that directly from the Tao Te Ching? Or somewhere else?

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Peaceful Hulk said:

 

Is that directly from the Tao Te Ching? Or somewhere else?

 

Tao De Jing chapter 44

[Peaceful Hulk]

2 hours ago, doc benway said:

 

Only one way to find out... try!

 

In my opinion, the question should not be "can a Daoist who sticks with the Dao and does wu wei still be a workaholic overachiever?"

It is better to ask "can I stick with the Dao and do wu wei still be a workaholic overachiever?'

Wu wei is not about doing nothing, it is about our relationship to what we are doing, and whether we align with or go against our inherent nature as a healthy, balanced, and well-adjusted human being, connected to our community and environment. 

 

If our relationship to our work is healthy and balanced, I believe we can be very busy and productive, even amass great wealth, and remain well aligned with the natural way. One problem, however, is that being extremely busy and focused on work makes it quite challenging to maintain a healthy balance; not to mention success and wealth have corrupting effects and make it difficult to align with the Way. This is why the sage tends to be more carefree, simple, and flexible. This is why so many practitioners spend time in isolation.

 

To me the words workaholic and overachiever both connote someone that is forced, unnatural, pathologic, and indicative of a dysfunctional pattern of behavior with negative consequences for oneself and others. Forcing ourselves to work in an unnatural and unhealthy manner and position are most certainly not wu wei and not in alignment with the Way.

 

My own life has been an evolving path of looking for balance between a very demanding job, hobbies and outside interests, family, and my spiritual life. I've found that it is not reasonable to expect it all to just fall into place and work out. For me, it has been about trial and error, patience, and self-acceptance; continually adjusting myself to find a balance in any given moment. This often has required compromise, sometimes sacrifice, but from a Daoist perspective I feel that balance and harmony are key concepts. And it changes over time, sometimes profoundly (eg when illness or serious injury strikes, loss, changing interests, change in partners, the birth of a child, loss of a job, etc...).

 

Good luck!

 

 

Thanks. I'll reply to this more thoroughly in some hours.

[S:C]

2 hours ago, doc benway said:

workaholic

@Peaceful Hulk

 

Quote

a man focused on material gain

 

Your question (title and explanation thereof) seems contradictory, the wording is not well chosen in my opinion. Let me explain…
 

A workaholic to me, would be a person, who enjoys work, in an unhealthy way, (like getting his fix) so that he forgets balancing work with socializing, eating, hobbies. Like a video game addict or a drug addict. Someone needing his fix, and be it to blend out the noise and find peace. (Why is another question…) Some work might be a bit like meditation, anyway. Some do it with the mind, some with compassion, some different, I guess. 
In my opinion work is not necessarily a hindrance. Oh but chose well.
 

What you wrote below to explain your title question would instead suggest an external force of unhealthy personal greed (for lack of a better word) which would be relieved if that person would experience a shift of material gain that would remain, e.g. winning the lottery. Guess they wouldn’t be a workaholic afterwards then, no? 

So if someone ‘enjoys’ his drug and be it work or meditation or something, and his work being in accordance with his nature and dao, I’d say, yes possible.

 

With greed alone, rather unlikely. 
 

-

 

Still, I second that what Maddie and doc benway explained about balance. Can’t really explain the difference to what I meant well in words…. 
 

Thank you for your question, interesting!

Edited 8 hours ago by S:C

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, Peaceful Hulk said:

I mean, I'm trying to be rich here. Gotten promoted twice so far in the company and got a raise in the past. I ain't stopping anytime soon. At the same time, wu wei requires a life of solitude with nature...

 

I mean, is there a way to integrate that philosophy with a man focused on material gain?

 

I would suggest  Overachieving  is in conflict with basic daoistic approach .   There should be no need to do MORE than what is needed .

 

But its probably just a word choice .   Where you are going  .... is that greater or more than you want ? It doesnt sound like it .

 

In my unlearned but experiential position I would say the daoist approach would be to do what you do and go where you want to go  would be using a method that  does not waste energy, is not unfocused and utilises   the natural forces that move things in that direction .   Sort of, swim in the direction the tide is going .  Somehow I get the hunch that is already happening .

 

regarding the second part  'life of solitude and nature ' - that can often be a trade off . I have gone more that way , but my  work ( past work, I am retired now )  went well with that .   I suppose  the advice could be  to make sure you find some time to do that ; take holidays and retreats occasionally .  I know, I know ... too busy , no time and having too much fun elsewhere .... but consider ; giving yourself this  healthy and holistic  space  may well improve all the other stuff you want to achieve .

 

Long term , perhaps you could combine both   ... a fitness program / retreat  ....   that way you can do both as well .... and get paid for it   

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, doc benway said:

 

Only one way to find out... try!

 

In my opinion, the question should not be "can a Daoist who sticks with the Dao and does wu wei still be a workaholic overachiever?"

It is better to ask "can I stick with the Dao and do wu wei still be a workaholic overachiever?'

Wu wei is not about doing nothing, it is about our relationship to what we are doing, and whether we align with or go against our inherent nature as a healthy, balanced, and well-adjusted human being, connected to our community and environment. 

 

If our relationship to our work is healthy and balanced, I believe we can be very busy and productive, even amass great wealth, and remain well aligned with the natural way. One problem, however, is that being extremely busy and focused on work makes it quite challenging to maintain a healthy balance; not to mention success and wealth have corrupting effects and make it difficult to align with the Way. This is why the sage tends to be more carefree, simple, and flexible. This is why so many practitioners spend time in isolation.

 

To me the words workaholic and overachiever both connote someone that is forced, unnatural, pathologic, and indicative of a dysfunctional pattern of behavior with negative consequences for oneself and others. Forcing ourselves to work in an unnatural and unhealthy manner and position are most certainly not wu wei and not in alignment with the Way.

 

My own life has been an evolving path of looking for balance between a very demanding job, hobbies and outside interests, family, and my spiritual life. I've found that it is not reasonable to expect it all to just fall into place and work out. For me, it has been about trial and error, patience, and self-acceptance; continually adjusting myself to find a balance in any given moment. This often has required compromise, sometimes sacrifice, but from a Daoist perspective I feel that balance and harmony are key concepts. And it changes over time, sometimes profoundly (eg when illness or serious injury strikes, loss, changing interests, change in partners, the birth of a child, loss of a job, etc...).

 

Good luck!

 

 

 

I agree , but maybe 'workaholic'  was the wrong word ?

 

When one is in  ' energized enthusiasm '  working or creating in field one LOVES , virtually ecstatic  and inspired to do it  (for a time ) one does not even need food or sleep . From this state amazing work or inspired discovery and invention can 'arise' .

 

To  the  outside observer , they might seem 'workaholic' .

 

I  see workaholics as  people that have to invest in  some type of work as a substitute or crutch  in being overly involved in something that is not 'of their nature' , not their 'true will' .  Like alcohol itself, it can be a distractive addiction because something else is not right or not working properly ... or the whole situation feels hopeless .

[Small Fur]

20 hours ago, Peaceful Hulk said:

I mean, I'm trying to be rich here. Gotten promoted twice so far in the company and got a raise in the past. I ain't stopping anytime soon. At the same time, wu wei requires a life of solitude with nature...

 

I mean, is there a way to integrate that philosophy with a man focused on material gain?

 

 

Materials are not inherently a contradiction to spiritual life unless you make them so; having things and (mundane) ascension are not a matter of 'if' (for all things are possible) but rather a matter of 'how' and 'why' they become. 

 

When material gain comes from the restless of desire expressed in striving, then accomplishments are a product of peril- the loss of purity (the yuan source), the loss of life force (jing qi), and the loss of a deeper awareness (shen). When material gain is the fruition of inner peace and freedom, then its value is as immeasurable as it is measurable.

 

So it isn't a matter of having things at all, but rather a matter of how you get there.  If Tao is a place you set your sites on like a goal, then wu wei will become an arbitrary product of happenstance that you will struggle to achieve- essentially, it will remain apart from who you are and itself be elusive to your awareness.

 

Do not let the fleeting fragility of forms divert your attention from the profound significance of death’s transformative power, the imprints it leaves upon the spirit, and the enduring lessons of karma, for their value far exceeds any dollar you will earn or promotion that you will receive. This not a matter to incite fear or guilt, but to point out that misplaced values cannot supplant truth; therefore, seek to become a truthful person: enlightened people are who they are because they are True People (真人- zhenren). A True Person realizes the death of forms and thus understands the formless contained within things: you might need a lifetime to acquire material wealth but you don't need lifetimes to align in truth if you take care of your consciousness now. The now that is true presence extinguishes time and can burn the binds of lifetimes of afflictions.

 

Too often people think of Taoism, like work and materials- as something to be achieved, they treat it like ideas... an idea they really like. But what they don't realize is that Consciousness isn't a philosophy, it is an understanding born of profound self-realization; this demands a sense of maturity and personal accountability for the intricacies and motivations of life.  Therefore, the methods of Taoism can't be approached as a practice to perfect and a thing to be intellectually ascertained.  Instead, who you are must originate from a genuine and humble heart (xin- the seat of shen).  If yin Tao is the foundation in which your Consciousness resides, then wu wei will be an expression of grace flowing forth from the well of eternal harmony, producing a wealth richer than any gold that can be seen.

Edited 4 hours ago by Small Fur