Transmission Outside of Scripture

[Mark Foote]

9 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I dunno, those chaps were before my time. Certainly Reb knew what he was talking about, his book "Being Upright" is a master class in seeing from Wisdom. 

 

 

Exceptionalism is over-rated. When the whole field of experience is ALREADY enlightened and always has been, how could it possibly matter what a list says?
 

I picture Stirling sailing his hat down some San Francisco street, total abandon in a brisk breeze.

I did read "Being Upright"--that's his apology for not copping to a problem with Baker Roshi sooner, if memory serves.

I don't know. I think it's confusing to most people, who to trust as a teacher. It's not even straightforward when it comes to subjects like mathematics, because the field of study and the approach can make all the difference, regardless of the teacher's credentials. How much more confusing, when the subject is how best to make use of this life!

If it was as simple as you sometimes make it out to be, Stirling, we'd all know the answer to that one already. 

[Mark Foote]

On 3/14/2025 at 8:42 PM, Lairg said:

 

The first format of mediation I was taught,  when augmented by "advanced techniques", was a mantra that made a sequence of sounds that progressed from the chakra immediately above the head, to the upper head chakra, throat, upper heart, lower heart and finally upper solar plexus.

 

The sequence harmonized each of the relevant chakras and was sufficient to move my awareness into a timeless zone.  "Goodness, is that the time already?"

 

That  was superseded by other techniques that just appeared while I was meditating

 

Speaking of upper solar plexus:

 

 

Goddess knows best!

 

 

Edited March 19 by Mark Foote

[Lairg]

That is a highly significant image.  Other than statues the ancient Egyptians very rarely depicted a front-facing image 

 

Here we have the four pillars of heaven looking straight at the human observer.  What does that mean about the significance/functionality of the human?

 

Is the image an invitation to take on the ball of light above the pillars?

 

 

Edited March 19 by Lairg

[Mark Foote]

On 3/18/2025 at 9:29 PM, Lairg said:

That is a highly significant image.  Other than statues the ancient Egyptians very rarely depicted a front-facing image 

 

Here we have the four pillars of heaven looking straight at the human observer.  What does that mean about the significance/functionality of the human?

 

Is the image an invitation to take on the ball of light above the pillars?

 

I would say yes. The  illustration, by the way, is  from the "Papyrus of Ani” manuscript of the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Material I have excised from my latest writing, so that I will not be accused of harboring aliens of the interstellar variety in my non-existent basement:
 

I would guess that the scene is intended to depict forces inside the torso, with the central pillar representing the sacrum and the line at the top of the scene representing the diaphragm.

Resting on top of the pillar is a symbol referred to as “the ankh”, which dates back in Egypt to about 30 centuries before the common era. From Wikipedia:
 

There is little agreement on what physical object the sign originally represented [Gordon & Schwabe 2004, pp 102–103]. Many scholars believe the sign is a knot formed of a flexible material such as cloth or reeds [ibid], as early versions of the sign show the lower bar of the ankh as two separate lengths of flexible material that seem to correspond to the two ends of the knot [Wilkinson 1992, p 177].

(Wikipedia, “Ankh”)

My guess is that the ankh in the “Papyrus of Ani” manuscript illustrates a placement of “the base of consciousness” that functions like the spring in Gautama’s pool-of-water metaphor*, a resilient placement that balances activity in front of the abdomen and behind the sacrum, except with special emphasis on the horizontal iliolumbar ligaments, the two paired ligaments being symbolized by the crossbar of the ankh.

The material the goddesses kneel on would seem to represent the sacrotuberous ligaments. The sacrotuberous ligaments attach to the thoracolumbar fascial sheet:
 

At the base of the lumbar spine all of the layers of the thoracolumbar fascial sheet fuse together into a thick composite that attaches firmly to the posterior superior iliac spine and the sacrotuberous ligament.

(J Anat. 2012 May 27;221(6):507–536. doi: 10.1111/j.1469-7580.2012.01511.x)

 
The two goddesses offer support, one hand to the top of a structure that resembles the sacrum, the other hand angled toward the disk of the sun.  The hands at the top of the sacrum would represent the support of the horizontal iliolumbar ligaments to the base of the lumbar spine, while the hands toward the sun would represent the support of the vertical iliolumbar ligaments to the vertebrae upward along the spine. One knee of each goddess seems to offer support near the bottom of the sacrum.

The disc of the sun held by the arms of the ankh I would guess represents a free and pure consciousness, pure in that automatic activity of the body is solely by virtue of the location of consciousness (and not by habit or volition), and free in that consciousness takes place anywhere within the body.

The upturned hands, balance on the balls of the feet, and extended tails of the baboons moving up the inside of the walls I believe speak to the stretch of the thoracolumbar fascia through the relaxed weight of the arms, the legs, and the head. They may also indicate that the lever arm of the transverse abdominals is in use against the extensors of the lumbar spine to allow stretch in the ligaments of the spine and rearward displacement of the fascial sheet as appropriate.
 

 

 

 

 

* "… imagine a pool with a spring, but no water-inlet on the east side or the west side or on the north or on the south, and suppose the (rain-) deva supply not proper rains from time to time–cool waters would still well up from that pool, and that pool would be steeped, drenched, filled and suffused with the cold water so that not a drop but would be pervaded by the cold water; in just the same way… (one) steeps (their) body with zest and ease… "

(AN 5.28, © Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19)

 

 

Edited March 20 by Mark Foote

[Lairg]

58 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

My guess is that the ankh in the “Papyrus of Ani” manuscript illustrates a placement of “the base of consciousness”

 

In my experience the ankh can be used to manage energy flows.  

 

I once used that on two women that were emotionally attacking me.  I used an ankh to reverse each flow. One woman was tough and unknowingly attacked herself for two days before giving up.

 

The use of an ankh as a device is implicit in the above depiction. 

 

Note also that the goddess has two  right hands while the other female has two left hands 

 

Edited March 20 by Lairg

[Nungali]

On 3/19/2025 at 3:29 PM, Lairg said:

That is a highly significant image.  Other than statues the ancient Egyptians very rarely depicted a front-facing image 

 

Here we have the four pillars of heaven looking straight at the human observer.  What does that mean about the significance/functionality of the human?

 

Is the image an invitation to take on the ball of light above the pillars?

 

 

 

Anything can be 'made up as we go along ' about it according to our own perceptions . 

 

Or we could consider the artists intention , if one was to be so bold .     Or even logic . It's a bit hard to depict an ankh  'side on' .  or a Djed Pillar . for the other 'front on images' I suggest you look into some hieroglyphics . 

 

... or just keep making stuff up that suits  you . 

[Lairg]

If only we could develop experiments to test spiritual propositions.

 

But so many would lose their incomes

 

And so many would lose their beliefs

 

Better to let sleeping dogs lie?

 

 

[Cobie]

.

Edited March 21 by Cobie

[stirling]

11 hours ago, Lairg said:

If only we could develop experiments to test spiritual propositions.

 

The proposition that "emptiness"/"pure awareness"/Brahman is the underlying reality is actually fairly easy to experience, if one has the drive to discover that this is the case. A month of meditation, moving from meditation on an object to "open awareness" (the whole field of experience is the object) and a teacher who can point out the emptiness are all that is required - no adoption of beliefs, or spending of money, or anything else necessary. 

 

11 hours ago, Lairg said:

But so many would lose their incomes

 

Why?

 

11 hours ago, Lairg said:

And so many would lose their beliefs

 

Yes. Wouldn't that be lovely?

 

11 hours ago, Lairg said:

Better to let sleeping dogs lie?

 

Those that want to stay asleep will, which is perfectly fine. Those that are driven to wake up will... also fine.

[Lairg]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

The proposition that "emptiness"/"pure awareness"/Brahman is the underlying reality is actually fairly easy to experience, if one has the drive to discover that this is the case. ...and a teacher who can point out the emptiness are all that is required -

 

A targeted experiential process and a separate observer - that is the essence of experiments in developing a spiritual science.

 

Yesterday I was with a friend and we were observing the entangled flows in the personal minds of her children.  She discovered that when she sent heart light into the transpersonal minds of the children, then their lower minds immediately became less tangled with fewer separated flows.

 

She did that with each child while I observed.  The children were many miles away

 

 

[Nungali]

Imagine what they will  say this might be  !    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

T

 

 

'These early meditators  have enlarged their LDT's which has  also caused enlargements on the physical plane . They have become too huge to hold up by themselves and need assistants and an electricity pylon .  Just the other day a friend asked me about this power , she had been feeling nervous but I directed my palm towards her , channeling the 'becoming energy of the alternate universes'  .... and she was instantly  calmer .   Then I ran off to Daobums to post about it . 

[Nungali]

  

 

 

https://www.milleetunetasses.com/blog/the-great-pyramid-of-khufu-dendera-temple/dendera-lightbulb-reliefs-explaination.html

[Lairg]

Explanations without confirmatory experiments are explaining away.

 

Explaining away is very popular but does not develop the human race

 

If the human race is purely decorative then explaining away is probably an efficient process

 

[Mark Foote]

On 3/20/2025 at 4:29 PM, Lairg said:

 

In my experience the ankh can be used to manage energy flows.  

 

I once used that on two women that were emotionally attacking me.  I used an ankh to reverse each flow. One woman was tough and unknowingly attacked herself for two days before giving up.

 

The use of an ankh as a device is implicit in the above depiction. 

 

Note also that the goddess has two  right hands while the other female has two left hands 

 

That's interesting about the two right and two left hands--didn't notice that!

 

[Mark Foote]

7 hours ago, stirling said:

... moving from meditation on an object to "open awareness" (the whole field of experience is the object)...

 

 

A key aspect of the bodily self is self-location, the experience that the self is localized at a specific position in space within one's bodily borders (embodied self-location). 

(Journal of Neuroscience 26 May 2010, 30 (21) 7202-7214; https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.3403-09.2010)
 

The “self… localized at a specific position in space” is generally associated with consciousness. The Indian sage Nisargadatta described the self as “the consciousness in the body”:

 

You are not your body, but you are the consciousness in the body, because of which you have the awareness of “I am”. It is without words, just pure beingness. Meditation means you have to hold consciousness by itself. The consciousness should give attention to itself.

(Gaitonde, Mohan [2017]. Self – Love: The Original Dream [Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj’s Direct Pointers to Reality]; ISBN 978-9385902833)

 

"The consciousness should give attention to itself"--that's "meditation on an object", but also "the experience (of consciousness) localized at a specific position in space within one's bodily borders".

 

Gautama described the first concentration as like a bath-ball, gathered out of soap powder scattered in a copper basin and sprinkled with moisture. The bath-ball should be kneaded, he said, until it no longer oozes moisture.

I would say that's returning a presence of mind to the location of consciousness until the presence is steady.

Gautama continued his metaphor by saying, “even so, (a person) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses this body with zest and ease… so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease”.

The zest and ease that Gautama referred to I believe are the zest and ease born of activity of the body by virtue of the location of consciousness. When the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation takes place by virtue of the location of consciousness, feelings of zest and ease arise. The suffusion of the body with zest and ease such that "there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded" by zest and ease is "the whole field of awareness as the object", at least as far as consciousness in the body.

Ptahhotep east wall, 25th century B.C.E.


 

[stirling]

3 hours ago, Lairg said:

A targeted experiential process and a separate observer - that is the essence of experiments in developing a spiritual science.

 

What I mean is, you can see for yourself how things are. This experiential gnowing is really all that matters. True experiential gnowing decimates the belief in any "story" about reality, including the big bang, cosmologies, etc. 

[Lairg]

33 minutes ago, stirling said:

What I mean is, you can see for yourself how things are.

 

Does the human that knows rather than believes, then manifest/acquire additional functions and obligations?

 

 

[stirling]

5 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

A key aspect of the bodily self is self-location, the experience that the self is localized at a specific position in space within one's bodily borders (embodied self-location). 

(Journal of Neuroscience 26 May 2010, 30 (21) 7202-7214; https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.3403-09.2010)

 

Ultimately, self HAS no location. It is both no location and all locations. Localization and body borders are delusions. 

 

5 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

The “self… localized at a specific position in space” is generally associated with consciousness. The Indian sage Nisargadatta described the self as “the consciousness in the body”:

 

You are not your body, but you are the consciousness in the body, because of which you have the awareness of “I am”. It is without words, just pure beingness. Meditation means you have to hold consciousness by itself. The consciousness should give attention to itself.

(Gaitonde, Mohan [2017]. Self – Love: The Original Dream [Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj’s Direct Pointers to Reality]; ISBN 978-9385902833)

 

Not a specific location. The "Self" has no specific location. Consciousness is everywhere, not just the body. "I am" is everywhere.

 

How about some more Maharaj, so we can get the flavor of his teachings.

 

On enlightenment:

 

Quote

"This state is before the appearance of beingness.

It is prior to or beyond beingness

, and non-beingness.

I Am, in that state which existed before the arrival

of beingness and non-beingness.

With the arrival of the waking state, all the world

becomes manifest;

because of my beingness, my world is manifest.

That also is observed by that state which is prior

to beingness, and vou are That!" - Nisargadatta Maharaj

 

On manipulating experience:

 

Quote

"The one who has fully investigated himself, the one

who has come to Understand, will never try to interfere

with the play of Consciousness."

- Nisargadatta Maharaj

 

Quote

 

"Anything that implies a continuity, a sequence,

a passing from stage to stage cannot be the Real.

There is no progress in Reality; it is final, perfect,

unrelated. Reality is not the result of a process; it is

an explosion." - Nisargadatta Maharaj

 

 

Quote

 

"You see yourself in the world while I see the world

in myself. To you, you get born and die; while to me,

the world appears and disappears." - Nisargadatta Maharaj

 

 

Realization isn't about creating or manipulating a series of conditions, it is about realizing an underlying reality. This is what Zen is about, but also, what Buddhism in general about. The Buddha's realization happened after dropping all of the practices and resting in the simplicity of just being. 

 

5 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

"The consciousness should give attention to itself"--that's "meditation on an object", but also "the experience (of consciousness) localized at a specific position in space within one's bodily borders".

 

No. 

 

The Buddha understood that excessive control of the body through deprivation would only lead to death through starvation. It would not lead to the elimination of desire. The cessation of suffering would never be achieved with practices. He realized that control was not the answer. The Buddha gave up meditation on an object under the bodhi tree.

 

5 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

The suffusion of the body with zest and ease such that "there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded" by zest and ease is "the whole field of awareness as the object", at least as far as consciousness in the body.

 

This is first jhana. The jhanas are activities until their is emptiness (4th jhana). No activity will ever be the cause of enlightenment. One must drop objects of meditation to even get a glimpse of what is being pointed at. Luckily, that happens naturally to most people in meditation, though they may miss it entirely if it hasn't been pointed to. Nirsagadatta Maharaj points to it over and over again.

 

It is being, without doing. It is stillness, presence, awareness of the whole field of experience, with no thought or self that anything could be different. 

[stirling]

2 minutes ago, Lairg said:

Does the human that knows rather than believes, then manifest/acquire additional functions and obligations?

 

No human ever knows enlightenment... enlightenment only recognizes itself and gnows. Enlightenment has no functions and obligations... just being.

[Lairg]

45 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

No human ever knows enlightenment... enlightenment only recognizes itself and gnows. Enlightenment has no functions and obligations... just being.

 

If you say so

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

Does the human that knows rather than believes, then manifest/acquire additional functions and obligations?

 

 

 

Only if they  know what they believe and do not   believe they know . 

[Mark Foote]

21 hours ago, stirling said:

 

This is first jhana. The jhanas are activities until their is emptiness (4th jhana). No activity will ever be the cause of enlightenment. One must drop objects of meditation to even get a glimpse of what is being pointed at. Luckily, that happens naturally to most people in meditation, though they may miss it entirely if it hasn't been pointed to. Nirsagadatta Maharaj points to it over and over again.

 

It is being, without doing. It is stillness, presence, awareness of the whole field of experience, with no thought or self that anything could be different. 
 

Thanks for the Nisargadatta quotes, those are wonderful.

And now for something completely different and yet I hope relevant, from the piece I'm currently writing:

 

Why the emphasis on the breath? As I wrote previously:

There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the necessity of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages.

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages, edited)

The exact nature of the frailty of the lower spine and the precise mechanism of support I have gleaned from the medical literature.

Studies made in the 1940’s established that the discs of the lumbar spine cannot, on their own, withstand the pressure of lifting significant weight without rupture.

In the 1950’s, D. L. Bartelink concluded that pressure in the “fluid ball” of the abdominal cavity takes load off the structure of the spine when weight is lifted  (“The Role of Abdominal Pressure in Relieving the Pressure on the Lumbar Intervertebral Discs”; J Bone Joint Surg Br. 1957 Nov; 39-B(4):718-25). The pressure in the “fluid ball” is induced by activity in the abdominal muscles, and Bartilink was able to establish that in weight lifting, the pressure induced is proportional to the weight lifted.

Bartelink theorized that animals (as well as humans) make use of pressure in the “fluid ball” of the abdominal cavity to protect the spine, and he noted that breathing can continue even when the abdomen is tensed:
 

Animals undoubtedly make an extensive use of the protection of their spines by the tensed somatic cavity, and probably also use it as a support upon which muscles of posture find a hold…

Breathing can go on even when the abdomen is used as a support and cannot be relaxed.

(ibid)
 

In the 1980’s, Gracovetsky, Farfan and Lamay suggested that in weight lifting, the abdominals work against the extensor muscles of the spine to allow the displacement of the fascial sheet behind the sacrum and spine:

If this interpretation is correct, it would partly explain why the abdominal muscles work hard during weight-lifting. They apparently work against the extensor muscles. Futhermore their lever arm gives them considerable effect. In fact, we propose that the effect of the abdominal muscles is two-fold:  to balance the moment created by the abdominal pressure (hence, the abdominal muscles do not work against the weight lifter) and to generate abdominal pressure up to 1 psi, which would help the extensors to push away the fascia.

It is essential that the supraspinous ligament and the lumbodorsal fascia be brought into action to permit weight lifting without disk or vertebral failure. … It must be kept in mind that in some circumstances ligament tension may reach 1800 lb., whereas no muscle can pull as hard.

(Gracovetsky, S., Farfan HF, Lamay C, 1997. A mathematical model of the lumbar spine using an optimal system to control muscles and ligaments. Orthopedic Clinics of North America 8: 135-153; bracketed added)
 

 

Dr. Rene Cailliet summarized these findings:
 

In the Lamy-Farfan model the abdominal pressure is considered to be exerted posteriorly against the lumbodorsal fascia, causing the fascia to become taut…. thus relieving the tension upon the erector spinae muscles.

(“Low Back Pain Syndrome”, ed. 3, F. A. Davis Co., pp 140-141

Farfan, Lamay and Cailliet referred to the “lumbodorsal fascia”, now more commonly referred to as the “thoracolumbar fascia”.

My guess is that a cross-legged posture exacerbates the shearing stress on vertebrae of the lower spine in the movement of breath, and that the free location of consciousness can lead the balance of the body in activity to relieve that stress.

Critical to the relinquishment of willful activity in the body is the recognition that the ligaments of the body can regulate muscular activity, In research done at the close of the 1990’s, the sacroiliac ligaments were shown to regulate activity in the gluteous muscles and the muscles of the lower spine (Indahl, A., et al., “Sacroiliac joint involvement in activation of the porcine spinal and gluteal musculature”, Journal of Spinal Disorders, 1999. 12[4]: p. 325-30).

The stretch allowed by a ligament is slight (less than about 6% of the total length of the ligament), and yet the study by Indahl and associates suggests that even a slight stretch may influence muscular activity.

I would say based on my own experience that other ligaments of the body can also regulate activity in associated muscle groups.

 

The metaphors Gautama offered for the initial states of concentration speak to the role of “one-pointedness of mind” in engaging the stretch of particular ligaments. The ligaments in turn regulate reciprocal activity in various muscle groups that attach to the thoracolumbar fascial sheet, including the abdominals, and thereby control aspects of the stretch and displacement of the fascial sheet.

My guess is that even when the spine is not under significant load, stretch in the thoracolumbar fascial sheet may still be engaged to provide support to the structure of the spine, and thereby ease the nerve exits between vertebrae along the sacrum and spine. The free occurrence of consciousness in the body I believe depends in part on that ease.

In a cross-legged posture, the necessary ease can perhaps be brought about in stages, as in the concentrations that Gautama detailed.

 

"The one who has fully investigated himself, the one

who has come to Understand, will never try to interfere

with the play of Consciousness."

- Nisargadatta Maharaj

 

 

[Cobie]

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

Only if they  know what they believe and do not   believe they know . 

“… they know”; they know that they don’t know. 

 

Edited March 22 by Cobie

[stirling]

21 hours ago, Lairg said:

If you say so

 

Find out for yourself!

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Cobie said:

“… they know”; they know that they don’t know. 

 

 

< deleted > 

Edited March 23 by Nungali