Why were the highest spiritual teachings kept hidden/secret

[Sanity Check]

1 hour ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

 

First of all this is incorrect. You have saints in the Orthodox Christianity, the Anglican Church and others. Even in other religions there are the similar concepts of “saints” like the Wali in Islam, Boddhisattva in Buddhism and Xian in Daoism.

 

I won’t comment on the rest of the post.

 

 

The word "saint" appears in the bible.

 

In which case, the smart argument for you, might be to claim that all denominations recognize saints. The term is in the bible. This makes it "universal".

 

Rather than cherry picking on the fact that there are so many christian denominations that a few aside from catholicism would inevitably have their own social order for sainthood.

 

But recognizing saints isn't quite the same as saint worship, as catholicism is known for. And so not the same thing.

[Sanity Check]

41 minutes ago, Zork said:

This is laughable and only underscores your ignorance.

 

1) You need to understand empowerment and why it is important.

2) In the absence of empowerment only 1 to 1 guidance from a teacher will allow you to make progress.

 

This might seem harsh but it is how reality works.

 

 

Why would I care about empowerment?

 

How did the 1st person develop esoteric techniques while lacking a teacher?

 

Who says people like you should learn such things?

 

Especially when you don't seem to have the best self awareness or self control.

[Zork]

3 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

Why would I care about empowerment?

That is a good question but you need to answer that yourself.

 

3 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

How did the 1st person develop esoteric techniques while lacking a teacher?

Dunnoh ask the Buddha or Jesus. Until you find such a person, the question is moot.

The real question is: do you know such a person?

5 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

Who says people like you should learn such things?

Deflection won't get you answers but anyway your explosive mix of ignorance and audacity is difficult to recover from.

I can sympathize but only to the extent that you understand the shortcoming in your character.

7 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

Especially when you don't seem to have the best self awareness or self control.

You must be an excellent judge of character to be able to discern the personality of someone through 2 online posts. Wiser men refrain on making judgements even after reading multiple posts but it seems we have a talented individual here! 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, Zork said:

Also you need to understand that saints in Christianity ( I assume that it is true in Muslims too) have been empowered to be able to exercise their abilities just like the Buddhists.

Exactly the same for Muslims too

[Zork]

25 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

The word "saint" appears in the bible.

Point it out. I can understand Demotic Greek and can provide context from the original text if you like. All you need to point me to is the reference and we are cool.

Notice the context in bold.

Why do i talk about context? Because the translation from Greek of the word Άγιος in English is both Holy and Saint so a lot depends on context.

For example  " Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty" is " Άγιος, Άγιος, Άγιος Κύριος Σαβαώθ"

Edited February 28 by Zork

[Sanity Check]

12 minutes ago, Zork said:

 

 

 

You must be an excellent judge of character to be able to discern the personality of someone through 2 online posts. Wiser men refrain on making judgements even after reading multiple posts but it seems we have a talented individual here! 

 

"Deflection won't get you answers but anyway your explosive mix of ignorance and audacity is difficult to recover from."

 

 

The behavioral pattern of attempting to put others down.

 

In the flawed belief that it somehow elevates your own self.

 

Is the mark of an underachiever.

 

It also defines the type of person that no one likes.

 

 

 

Edited February 28 by Sanity Check

[Sanity Check]

9 minutes ago, Zork said:

Point it out. I can understand Demotic Greek and can provide context from the original text if you like. All you need to point me to is the reference and we are cool.

Notice the context in bold.

 

 

 

If you don't already know the answer.

 

You don't belong here discussing the topic.

 

 

[Zork]

15 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

The behavioral pattern of attempting to put others down.

 

In the flawed belief that it somehow elevates your own self.

 

Is the mark of an underachiever.

 

It also defines the type of person that no one likes.

 

 

 

Congratulations, you get a cookie.

If you know so much about me you would know that I don't personally care at how people perceive me and second I have enough experience to know that online personalities are different from the person in life.

I must also add that Ad Hominems won't help your argument which is practically non existent.

Who the hell told you that only catholics have saints??? 

12 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

If you don't already know the answer.

 

You don't belong here discussing the topic.

 

 

Actually it is the other way around. I asked for evidence. You did not provide it. Your argument is null. All you need is point me to the text in the Bible where saints are mentioned, because in my knowledge they aren't. In the Bible the word for Saint is used to describe God and nobody else. Even the Prophets IIRC don't have that adjective.

Edited February 28 by Zork

[Sanity Check]

1 minute ago, Zork said:

Congratulations, you get a cookie.

If you know so much about me you would know that I don't personally care at how people perceive me and second I have enough experience to know that online personalities are different from the person in life.

 

 

People like you are the reason Trump won the popular vote in 2024.

 

Your behavior alienates your own voting and support base.

 

It was obvious in 2016.

 

9 years and you still haven't managed to connect the dots?

 

Tell me what is it you do exactly?

 

That you still haven't managed to learn the basics that many of us learned almost 10 years ago.

 

 

1 minute ago, Zork said:

Actually it is the other way around. I asked for evidence. You did not provide it. Your argument is null. All you need is point me to the text in the Bible where saints are mentioned, because in my knowledge they aren't. In the Bible the word for Saint is used to describe God and nobody else. Even the Prophets IIRC don't have that adjective.

 

 

If you read the bible.

 

You should know if the word saint is in there.

 

Overcomplicating everything and attempting to shift burden of proof.

 

These are the marks of underachievers.

 

 

[Zork]

2 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

People like you are the reason Trump won the popular vote in 2024.

This is highly unlikely because I am not american. 

Also if you understood Taoism you would know that Trump's victory is not an inherently bad or good thing. Taoism doesn't deal in absolute terms.
 

Quote

 

If you read the bible.

 

You should know if the word saint is in there.

 

Now you see the problem is that I have read the Bible and I can read it in Demotic Greek which you most obviously can't and I can assure you that the word Saint is never used to describe a person. 

You are not listening!!!!

This is a recurring theme in the thread. You have been given feedback by people here and you keep asking the same questions until you get the opinion that suits you. Unfortunately this is counterproductive at best or actively harmful, if you end up with Mantak Chia practices, at worst.

 

The subject of being self taught has been done to death in these forums and the consensus is that it is harmful at the long term (ever heard of Chi Deviations?). Go ahead, keep beating the dead horse by all means....

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

2 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

You don't belong here discussing the topic.

My friend, do I need to quote your own words to you again?

[Neirong]

2 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

My friend, do I need to quote your own words to you again?

 

4 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

You don't belong here discussing the topic.

 

On 25.02.2025 at 8:41 AM, Sanity Check said:

I can't comment on taoism or esoteric practices as I've never experienced them.

You are on a Daoist Esoteric forum, in a thread titled "Highest Spiritual Teachings."
 

The level of self-projection here is insane.
 

First, you flood the thread with complete nonsense.
 

4 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

People like you are the reason Trump won the popular vote in 2024.

 

Your behavior alienates your own voting and support base.

Now, derailing the thread into politics in hopes of getting it locked.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

Pulling it back to the main topic, I mostly agree with the following views:
 

Some people will do everything in their power to avoid encountering or engaging with "esoteric" teachings.
 

There is a second layer to the secrecy: the presence of fake teachings, pseudo-esoteric books (98% of books in esoteric section of a bookshop), and various cults. These may satisfy the desire to belong to an esoteric group, but in reality, they divert people away from genuine spiritual growth.

In simple terms, it works like a Google search. You search for "magic," but you either find a new Netflix movie, some cringe anime, a virtual game, or a schizo cult of Harry Potter LARPers. You are highly unlikely to find any genuine resources on magic cultivation by searching for it online.
 

The third reason is simply luck. If you happen to meet a Master or an Adept of Internal Arts, and they take the time to explain what they are doing, you have a good chance of starting on this path.
 

For example, I don’t really hide the fact that I work with meditation or energy cultivation. If people show interest, I help them begin sensing Qi. However, I also make it clear that if they want to seriously embark on this journey, they must commit to daily practice and be willing to invest in it financially.

[doc benway]

On 2/23/2025 at 3:13 PM, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

@Neirong and @Master Logray make good points, before you can run by yourself, someone has to teach you how to walk.

 

An alternative perspective - no one needs to teach a child to walk or run. It happens naturally and spontaneously, when they are ready - ziran. Wisdom can also happen naturally and spontaneously. In many ways, I suggest that it is the infatuation with “cultivation” and “energy” that can be dysfunctional and counter-productive for a lot of people 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

Wisdom can also happen naturally and spontaneously.

Lower dantian will not reactivate naturally and spontaneously 

[Neirong]

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

It happens naturally and spontaneously, when they are ready - ziran. Wisdom can also happen naturally and spontaneously. In many ways, I suggest that it is the infatuation with “cultivation” and “energy” that can be dysfunctional and counter-productive for a lot of people 

 

37 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Lower dantian will not reactivate naturally and spontaneously 

Right, I walk down the streets and see people randomly stumbling around, only to suddenly become MMA world champions. They have a sudden realization that transforms their bodies from a lazy heap of fat into a chiseled god-like statue with perfect muscle proportions, all with the flick of a finger, without any effort.
 

In every sense, spiritual training is far harder, more demanding, and more complicated than any other form of training required to achieve something meaningful in life.
 

Yet, on public forums, there’s a widespread advice that you don’t need to do anything and that everything happens naturally. You just have a realization, and that’s it.

What’s more, spiritual development is a gradual and lengthy process. If people do not begin proper training until a certain age, or if they waste their time on random "bullshido" practices while waiting for enlightenment to come instead of engaging in proper training, they essentially miss the opportunity of a lifetime. Human life is short, after all.

[Lairg]

10 minutes ago, Neirong said:

waiting for enlightenment to come instead of engaging in proper training, they essentially miss the opportunity of a lifetime. Human life is short, after all.

 

My observations are:

 

- in this version of our galaxy, right relationship is the fundamental spiritual practice.  Start with loving oneself

 

- those that advance in right relationship discover and form conscious working relationships with transcendental beings (internal and external)  to promote unfoldment of the local cosmos

 

-  each lifetime (sequential and parallel) provides opportunities to build on past successes and failures, developing partnerships that contribute to the purposes of this galaxy

 

- this galaxy is being called to step up - building right relationships that can support pure intent.  All are expected to contribute.

 

- there are no failures, just quick and less quick unfoldment of purpose.

 

Of course I could be wrong.

 

 

 

 

[johndoe2012]

1 hour ago, Neirong said:

 

 

Yet, on public forums, there’s a widespread advice that you don’t need to do anything and that everything happens naturally. You just have a realization, and that’s it.

 

This is not true, that is a strawman argument to support your own position. 

 

The majority knows it is hard work and takes a long time. 

[doc benway]

18 hours ago, Neirong said:

Right, I walk down the streets and see people randomly stumbling around, only to suddenly become MMA world champions. They have a sudden realization that transforms their bodies from a lazy heap of fat into a chiseled god-like statue with perfect muscle proportions, all with the flick of a finger, without any effort.

 

Some of the best fighters I've ever encountered were street fighters with no formal training. 

To fight well you need to fight a lot, the fewer rules the faster your progress. 

Sure, training can help but experience is better.

There are some exceptions of course, eg. the Gracie methods were unbeatable in the ring in the early days of MMA, they truly showed the value of a secret weapon in the ring, but not necessarily in the street. 

To chisel your body you need to work out, you don't necessarily need a trainer or specific routine, although one can help, no doubt. 

I never said no effort is needed, I said these things can develop naturally and spontaneously.

One aspect of effort is our experience of resistance to an activity.

When we do something we need to do or love to do, it feels effortless, regardless of how much time and energy we invest.

When we hate what we're doing, or feel it is a waste of time, the tiniest bit of effort is exhausting.

The point I am making is that too much and too narrow a focus, also too much effort, are not always a good thing.

Some folks need and thrive on it, some do better with a different approach.

 

Quote

In every sense, spiritual training is far harder, more demanding, and more complicated than any other form of training required to achieve something meaningful in life.

 

Your experience is valid for you but not universal. 

What is meaningful in life and spiritual growth depends on the individual.

The best way to achieve one's goals is also a very individual thing. 

Clearly, where you are at this moment in your life, you need structure and a narrow focus.

Others, in other circumstances, may find far more meaning in freedom and a wide open perspective. 

There is little value, or validity when we project what we need onto others.

Having trained in a credible Daoist system for about a dozen years, and a Bön Buddhist system for about the same, my experience is that both (rigid, narrow focus vs open, flexible perspective) can bring profound benefits with very different methodology. 

The other thing I've found is that both Daoist and Buddhist traditions embrace both types of methodology in different aspects of their trainings. Two things that are important for growth, regardless of methodology, are persistence and trust. 

 

 

Edited March 1 by doc benway

[Cobie]

5 hours ago, doc benway said:

… no one needs to teach a child to … run. It happens … when they are ready - ziran.

It’s a pun. 自然 zi4 ran2 - self so. A child to run is self ran. 

 

Edited February 28 by Cobie

[Cobie]

7 hours ago, Neirong said:

… be willing to invest in it financially.

Now here one should run, fast. Imo, never pay more than the normal entertainer fee (like what you pay to go to the theatre). 

 

 

Edited March 1 by Cobie

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Neirong said:

 

Right, I walk down the streets and see people randomly stumbling around, only to suddenly become MMA world champions. They have a sudden realization that transforms their bodies from a lazy heap of fat into a chiseled god-like statue with perfect muscle proportions, all with the flick of a finger, without any effort.

 

Well ... they exerted effort with their 'imaginization'  ... its not easy appeasing  an ago !  

 

In every sense, spiritual training is far harder, more demanding, and more complicated than any other form of training required to achieve something meaningful in life.

 

I think the issue there is 'value' .   MY GOD -  what some people see as 'meaningful in life' .  
 

Yet, on public forums, there’s a widespread advice that you don’t need to do anything and that everything happens naturally. You just have a realization, and that’s it. 

 

For me ; I did things  (practices) I thought I didn't need to do ... but mhe , give it a go .   My whole focus and interest in that area  however  seemed 'natural' , so I suppose that 'drove me' .  Later realization was  an essential and immense  part of the successful process - otherwise I would still  think I had done a lot of random and unconnected practice . 

 

( Like the  message in the story 'Fatima - the Rope Maker ' . Poor girl in a poor family and village , spends her time making rope . Gets happy - then 'disaster ' ;  goes on a  trip  with  relatives to a distant town , gets  captured by bandits ; forced to make rope and spears .  Eventually gets happy  - 'disaster' ;  bandits get killed by pirates , Fatima captured and carried far away by ship and forced to make and repair sails . Eventually gets happy -  'disaster' , ship wreck and washed ashore .  On and on it goes with Fatima lamenting to God why all the shit is happening to her  ... " Every time I get happy and accept my fate ... wham !  Why ? 

 

Anyway, turns out at a crucial moment she realizes she can put all her 'incidental skills' together and  make tents to help save exposed injured people .  Then she has the realization  that all that went before was some type of 'plan' leading somewhere .          - Like many things ; realizations ,  breaking out the mold ,  'experimental' , free from , etc  exist in two opposite poles ;   an essential process that can knit past work together , an awareness of the  how  previous study and learning can be applied . The opposite is a consciousness that sees this , but has not realized   the previous work  gone into the process  and try to go 'freeform' without a stable base or process behind it . 

 

Just like Bart and his 'lip reading '   

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Neirong said:

What’s more, spiritual development is a gradual and lengthy process. If people do not begin proper training until a certain age, or if they waste their time on random "bullshido" practices while waiting for enlightenment to come instead of engaging in proper training, they essentially miss the opportunity of a lifetime. Human life is short, after all.

 

I am surrounded  .... virtually totally , by people that never realized that opportunity was there in the first place .  And  further  .... most, actually .... of those that engaged in it , failed  and dropped out early .   Too hard  ( it wasn't really ) .  That's why , at the beginning the  potential initiate is told that ; 'Many fail , even with the  help they receive .'  That is because , essentially, its up to the individual . 

 

I guess, like Bart ... they just assumed they could do it   ... that's the fun part    ... the work study and practice part  ?    Boooor-ing ! 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, johndoe2012 said:

 

This is not true, that is a strawman argument to support your own position. 

 

The majority knows it is hard work and takes a long time. 

 

 

The majority ? ! 

 

 

Well, in 'real life'  it applies !  I am surrounded by these types  ... with about 4 rare gems of people   within my whole range of 'personally known people' .  

 

The rest try to appear via 'glamour'  as something different (and that works with the unaware ) but their actions give them away . 

 

The thing is , they come up against it .... and they think THAT is the hard work they are doing . 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

 

Some of the best fighters I've ever encountered were street fighters with no formal training. 

To fight well you need to fight a lot, the fewer rules the faster your progress. 

Sure, training can help but experience is better.

There are some exceptions of course, eg. the Gracie methods were unbeatable in the ring in the early days of MMA, they truly showed the value of a secret weapon in the ring, but not necessarily in the street. 

 

I'm sorry but you really need to  understand the scam that happened with the Gracies ....  there is a lot of info on line about this . 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

To chisel your body you need to work out, you don't necessarily need a trainer or specific routine, although one can help, no doubt. 

I never said no effort is needed, I said these things can develop naturally and spontaneously.

One aspect of effort is our experience of resistance to an activity.

When we do something we need to do or love to do, it feels effortless, regardless of how much time and energy we invest.

When we hate what we're doing, or feel it is a waste of time, the tiniest bit of effort is exhausting.

The point I am making is that too much and too narrow a focus, also too much effort, are not always a good thing.

Some folks need and thrive on it, some do better with a different approach.

 

And, in my observation  those that 'do better' have 'done it before' .   One needs a head start , to come here 'pre-loaded '  , or with good karma impetus, if you like -  without that , well, you are pushing it up hill ... but that is okay , its accumulative (unless you really blow it ! ) ) 

 

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

 

Your experience is valid for you but not universal. 

What is meaningful in life and spiritual growth depends on the individual.

The best way to achieve one's goals is also a very individual thing. 

Clearly, where you are at this moment in your life, you need structure and a narrow focus.

Others, in other circumstances, may find far more meaning in freedom and a wide open perspective. 

There is little value, or validity when we project what we need onto others.

Having trained in a credible Daoist system for about a dozen years, and a Bön Buddhist system for about the same, my experience is that both (rigid, narrow focus vs open, flexible perspective) can bring profound benefits with very different methodology. 

 

Do you think the first is a stable necessary for the  second to be able to operate properly ?  I mean  Dali's paintings are genius (if you see them 'in person'  )  but anyone can tape a banana to the wall. 

 

 

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

The other thing I've found is that both Daoist and Buddhist traditions embrace bother types of methodology in different aspects of their trainings. Two things that are important for growth, regardless of methodology, are persistence and trust. 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

51 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Now here one should run, fast. Imo, make sure to never pay more than the normal entertainer fee (like what you pay to go to the theatre) for this stuff. 

 

 

 

That was one of our essentials ; any cost for a person's ceremony should be met by them  ( eg  a physical object ) but it was forbidden to charge for the teaching, the ceremony, the time of officers, etc . 

 

And regarding secrecy ... what happened ?  Over time some broke their oaths or just 'let it out ' and what did they do ? They immediately started mail order adverts  for secret knowledge  and wanted money for it !    AMORC was one of the first , then of course that happened to them in an ongoing fractioning , dilution and 'cost rise' ....  eg ' Lectorum Rosicrusicarnam' ... Scientology ( from a different diversion )   and others.  and what are the 'initiates ' left with  ......

'Shit !  I paid all that money for a drink a glass of water left in the sunshine ritual . ' 

 

Or worse ;  ' Shit !  Now I have told my auditor all my 'secrets'  .... including my banking details ..... how did that happen ?"

 

[doc benway]

51 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I'm sorry but you really need to  understand the scam that happened with the Gracies ....  there is a lot of info on line about this . 

 

Don’t have the energy right now but thanks for the iconoside, I do prefer reality.

 

51 minutes ago, Nungali said:

And, in my observation  those that 'do better' have 'done it before' .   One needs a head start , to come here 'pre-loaded '  , or with good karma impetus, if you like -  without that , well, you are pushing it up hill ... but that is okay , its accumulative (unless you really blow it ! ) ) 

 

Makes sense in a goal-oriented paradigm at least.

 

51 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Do you think the first is a stable necessary for the  second to be able to operate properly ?  I mean  Dali's paintings are genius (if you see them 'in person'  )  but anyone can tape a banana to the wall. 

 

 

I can’t say for sure, I guess it depends. You’ve got your visionaries, like Basquiat, Kahlo, Keats, Rimbaud, Saramago, Dickens, Zappa, Schoenberg, Herzog, Tarantino… so many autodidacts in the arts, and in spirituality… And for many of us a narrow and rigid focus is an essential step in the process, it certainly was for me.