Why were the highest spiritual teachings kept hidden/secret

[dwai]

  On 2/28/2025 at 6:51 PM, doc benway said:

 

An alternative perspective - no one needs to teach a child to walk or run. It happens naturally and spontaneously, when they are ready - ziran. Wisdom can also happen naturally and spontaneously. In many ways, I suggest that it is the infatuation with “cultivation” and “energy” that can be dysfunctional and counter-productive for a lot of people 

I think it boils down to the question each spiritual seeker has to answer for themselves -  "What do you want?" 

If they want "cultivation" and "energy", they'll follow a path that does that. If they want to realize the Truth, they will follow a path leading them to it. 

 

I love the Kashmiri Shaivism's "methods" terminology -

1. For very few "anupaya upaya" - spontaneously revealed 
2. For a slightly larger group, "shambhava upaya" - revealed through self-inquiry
3. For a somewhat larger group than the above, "Shaktopaya" - revealed through preparation of the energy-body and then the mind through self-inquiry 
4. For most people, "Anvopaya" is how the Anu (Atom) builds the body, the energy body, and then works on the mind. 

It could be a combination of all four because the final realization happens spontaneously, on its own. It's just that the "level" of the seeker determines their access at a given point in time. 

 

Mostly, people who have trouble with the "spontaneously happening" realization haven't reached a point where they can intuitively 'get it' (this can happen even before realization occurs). Another could be attachment to method(s). It can be a subtle (or gross) attachment to an identity manufactured by the ego (for example, I am a (fill in the blanks) master. I have spent  (fill in the blanks) decades on developing skills in the (fill in the blanks) path). 

[stirling]

  On 3/3/2025 at 4:06 AM, Neirong said:

You go around here, and everyone claims to be ascended or enlightened, yet somehow they have never been able to see a real energy form with their own eyes.

 

Is this your standard for the verification of the "ascended or enlightened"? What is a "real energy form", in your estimation? What is "real" on its own?

 

  On 3/4/2025 at 10:08 PM, dwai said:

I think it boils down to the question each spiritual seeker has to answer for themselves -  "What do you want?" 

If they want "cultivation" and "energy", they'll follow a path that does that. If they want to realize the Truth, they will follow a path leading them to it.

 

The mistake is in believing that "energy" has some reality outside of mind. Do the non-dual paths result in powers? After a fashion, but the realization that can accompany or precede them puts paid to the idea that they were ever "yours" or that you somehow constructed them. If you think you are the master of something there is still understanding to be had. You may think you are in charge, but you aren't DRIVING.

 

 

That's where an understanding of reality comes in. Crowley, for example, had Thelema for this reason... he was realized. 

 

  46 minutes ago, dwai said:

Mostly, people who have trouble with the "spontaneously happening" realization haven't reached a point where they can intuitively 'get it' (this can happen even before realization occurs). Another could be attachment to method(s). It can be a subtle (or gross) attachment to an identity manufactured by the ego (for example, I am a (fill in the blanks) master. I have spent  (fill in the blanks) decades on developing skills in the (fill in the blanks) path). 

 

These have some correspondences with the "fetters", delusions that are overcome after insight in Buddhism.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruits_of_the_noble_path#Outline

[old3bob]

"The mistake is in believing that "energy" has some reality outside of mind"....umm I'd say no...

 

Para Shakti (another term often used in Saivite paths of Hinduism ) is pure energy+ that is eternally and imperishably joined to and springing forth from Brahman,  thus also equals the Reality of  Sat-chit-ananda. 

 

Edited March 5 by old3bob

[stirling]

  On 3/5/2025 at 12:03 AM, old3bob said:

"The mistake is in believing that "energy" has some reality outside of mind"....umm I'd say no...

 

Para Shakti (another term often used in Saivite paths of Hinduism ) is pure energy+ that is eternally and imperishably joined to and springing forth from Brahman,  thus also equals the Reality of  Sat-chit-ananda. 

 

You are saying that the "energy" is Brahman?

[Nungali]

  On 3/4/2025 at 10:07 PM, Cobie said:

Your ‘white bits’ are showing on the ‘all activity’ stream. 
 

 

 

Thanks for the 'tip off' . Next time I I sunbake, I shall take your observation into account 

[Nungali]

  On 3/4/2025 at 10:07 PM, Cobie said:

Your ‘white bits’ are showing on the ‘all activity’ stream. 
 

 

 

Thanks for the 'tip off' . Next time I I sunbake, I shall take your observation into account 

[Lairg]

I suspect there are many octaves of "energy".   Humans tend to consider the most refined level/note they can contact/conceptualize as Brahman (or equivalent).

 

As the human unfolds it sees/conceptualizes yet more octaves

 

 

 

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Maybe the highest spiritual teachings are the friends we make along the way  

[johndoe2012]

  On 3/3/2025 at 10:27 AM, Neirong said:

You are making a lot of assumptions on behalf of everyone. The world is not some idealistic, romantic fantasy. In general, passing down evaluations opens the door to cheating. For every person who is honest with themselves, there will be a dozen who deceive themselves, and over time, that small error will grow. A minor mistake left unchecked early on can lead to dramatic consequences later.

 

Belief in doership plus "they are not good enough" being projected on so-called others. No faith in Divinity that somehow can correct the "error" - who says there is an error?

 

From Presence Awareness by Sailor Bob Adamson 

 

  Quote

But realize that right now you are present and aware, first and foremost. That is prior to any thought. Realize that that is ceaselessly and spontaneously arising, prior to any thought. You are beyond the mind. Realize that. 

 

Neem Karoli Baba:

 

  Quote

It’s better to see God in everything

than to try to figure it out.

 

Bhagavad Gita 7.19

 

  Quote

After many births of spiritual practice, one who is endowed with knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be all that is. Such a great soul is indeed very rare.

 

Granted it takes relative time to surrender to Divinity and seeing the illusion of the self.

[Lairg]

  On 3/5/2025 at 10:32 AM, johndoe2012 said:

it takes relative time to surrender to Divinity and seeing the illusion of the self.

 

My own view is that the enlightened human is designed to be useful in the cosmos

 

If so, surrender is a bit extreme.  Perhaps embedded partnership is more accurate.

 

Also I rather hope that all the effort required in refining the human self is not wasted.  Perhaps the enlightened self is an important interface when dealing with other intelligences

 

On the other hand, the human may be merely decorative and human struggles the daily episode of a cosmic soap opera

 

 

[stirling]

  On 3/5/2025 at 3:17 AM, Lairg said:

As the human unfolds it sees/conceptualizes yet more octaves.

 

Definitely humans are constantly coming up with layer after layer of meaning and concept - but they without any real substance. They are interpretations only, not a deeper meaning.

[old3bob]

  On 3/5/2025 at 12:40 AM, stirling said:

 

You are saying that the "energy" is Brahman?

 

Brahman is beyond categories, but purest Shakti springs from Brahman and thus is connected.  There is no divorce.   Different schools in Hinduism have some variations.... 

 

 

Edited March 5 by old3bob

[Lairg]

  On 3/5/2025 at 4:30 PM, stirling said:

Definitely humans are constantly coming up with layer after layer of meaning and concept - but they without any real substance. They are interpretations only, not a deeper meaning.

 

That seems a dismal prospect

 

If only humans could devise experiments to test their interpretations.  There must be a metaphysicist somewhere.

 

 

[old3bob]

  On 3/5/2025 at 9:06 PM, Lairg said:

 

That seems a dismal prospect

 

If only humans could devise experiments to test their interpretations.  There must be a metaphysicist somewhere.

 

 

yea, throwing the baby out with the bathwater and sinking your raft before crossing the water is counter productive and seems an "above it all" attitude.  Btw, we could say that meaningful inspiration is not without substance.  For instance we could say the sun shining down on the earth giving all beings here life is far more than just a concept...

[stirling]

  On 3/5/2025 at 7:05 PM, old3bob said:

Brahman is beyond categories, but purest Shakti springs from Brahman and thus is connected.  There is no divorce.   Different schools in Hinduism have some variations.... 

 

Yes, any "energy" (or anything else) must arise from the source, and is therefore not separate. Agreed... just a variation in terminology.

[stirling]

  On 3/5/2025 at 9:06 PM, Lairg said:

That seems a dismal prospect

 

If only humans could devise experiments to test their interpretations.  There must be a metaphysicist somewhere.

 

It is only dismal if you imagine that you are somehow a separate being from the fabric of reality that has agency and is in control. If you realize that what you truly are IS the fabric of reality, it is actually liberation. Magick has this construct in Thelema where one can undertake summoning your Holy Guardian Angel (which is in fact your perfected, enlightened "self") to aid in the realization of unity. That realization isn't different from enlightenment.... IS enlightenment. 

[stirling]

  On 3/6/2025 at 5:37 AM, old3bob said:

yea, throwing the baby out with the bathwater and sinking your raft before crossing the water is counter productive and seems an "above it all" attitude.  Btw, we could say that meaningful inspiration is not without substance.  For instance we could say the sun shining down on the earth giving all beings here life is far more than just a concept...

 

Having some understanding of the absolute, intellectually, is useful, but it is also important to realize that the absolute is ineffable.. it ISN'T any of the stories you tell yourself. One needs to hold the raft lightly, not hold on to it as any kind of ultimate truth.

[doc benway]

  On 3/4/2025 at 10:08 PM, dwai said:

I think it boils down to the question each spiritual seeker has to answer for themselves -  "What do you want?" 

If they want "cultivation" and "energy", they'll follow a path that does that. If they want to realize the Truth, they will follow a path leading them to it. 

 

I love the Kashmiri Shaivism's "methods" terminology -

1. For very few "anupaya upaya" - spontaneously revealed 
2. For a slightly larger group, "shambhava upaya" - revealed through self-inquiry
3. For a somewhat larger group than the above, "Shaktopaya" - revealed through preparation of the energy-body and then the mind through self-inquiry 
4. For most people, "Anvopaya" is how the Anu (Atom) builds the body, the energy body, and then works on the mind. 

It could be a combination of all four because the final realization happens spontaneously, on its own. It's just that the "level" of the seeker determines their access at a given point in time. 

 

Mostly, people who have trouble with the "spontaneously happening" realization haven't reached a point where they can intuitively 'get it' (this can happen even before realization occurs). Another could be attachment to method(s). It can be a subtle (or gross) attachment to an identity manufactured by the ego (for example, I am a (fill in the blanks) master. I have spent  (fill in the blanks) decades on developing skills in the (fill in the blanks) path). 

 

Well put. The potential obstacle I was referring to with my post, is the inaccessibility of credible teachers and validated methods, particularly among Westerners pursuing Daoist methods. Far too easy to get stuck or misguided, working with books, videos, and online teachers of dubious credibility, some of whom teach amalgamated methods that do not have the reliability and insurance of lineage. This is particularly problematic with the “energy body” methods which require precise technique and guidance from a master. 

[Neirong]

  On 3/5/2025 at 10:32 AM, johndoe2012 said:

From Presence Awareness by Sailor Bob Adamson 

 

  On 3/5/2025 at 10:32 AM, johndoe2012 said:

Neem Karoli Baba:

 

  On 3/5/2025 at 10:32 AM, johndoe2012 said:

Bhagavad Gita 7.19

 

I am not interested in chatting with book quotes, if there is no personal experience there is nothing to discuss. 

 

  On 3/4/2025 at 11:26 PM, stirling said:

Crowley, for example, had Thelema for this reason... he was realized. 

He was a drug addict that ended his life poorly.

An example of a person who failed at Magic studies and it backfired.
 

  On 3/5/2025 at 8:40 AM, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Maybe the highest spiritual teachings are the friends we make along the way  

 

Humans try their best to avoid any objective and verifiable milestones with an uncomfortable reality check, and instead shift discussion to talking about rose ponies, golden unicorns, pink rainbows, and fluffy clouds.
 

Whatever makes them feel better, but I won’t be responding to this thread anymore.

[dwai]

  On 3/8/2025 at 12:16 PM, Neirong said:

 

I am not interested in chatting with book quotes, if there is no personal experience there is nothing to discuss. 

If it is personal “experience” it is still a phenomenon, and therefore not the Truth.  

[Lairg]

  On 3/8/2025 at 2:31 PM, dwai said:

If it is personal “experience” it is still a phenomenon, and therefore not the Truth.

 

An interesting proposition from two points of view:

 

- managing personal experience allows experiments to test theories/beliefs

- "truth" in philosophy  is a reification - the quality of being true to a  statement/relationship/situation is turned into a noun/object that does not need a context, and therefore holds without limits, in every case

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_(fallacy)

 

 

 

 

[dwai]

  On 3/8/2025 at 8:52 PM, Lairg said:

 

An interesting proposition from two points of view:

 

- managing personal experience allows experiments to test theories/beliefs

theories and beliefs are basically stories we tell ourselves to explain the inexplicable. 

  24 minutes ago, Lairg said:

- "truth" in philosophy  is a reification - the quality of being true to a  statement/relationship/situation is turned into a noun/object that does not need a context, and therefore holds without limits, in every case

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_(fallacy)

 

 

 

 

That might be the case in western philosophy. Indic philosophy (Hinduism, Buddhism) clearly consider that there is an absolute reality/truth which is the ground of all phenomena.