What is the Daoist take on memory issues caused by awakening

[markern]

Jeffrey Martins research on people who have had some sort of awakening found that severe memory issues was very common. It is also reported by numerous public teachers. It seems like it may be partially explained by many not feeling emotions strongly, or at all, anymore. Memory is very linked to the emotional charge one feels towards a memory. It seems it may also be partially explained by the loss of the ego structure that puts importance on what happens to oneself and sees oneself as an actor in a linear timeline.

This blogpost covers this issues in more depth:

https://thegloriousbothand.substack.com/p/more-on-memory-impairment-in-non

I am wondering what the Daoist take on this is. I am almost certain I recall Freeform writing that this was well known in his tradition and seen as an imbalance they had practices to counteract. I would love to know more about that. I think Freeform has mainly practiced within the Longmen Pai lineage.

I also think maybe a memory exercise that is in one of Damos books may be one of the practices used to counteract this issue. The exercise involves trying to remember everything one did throughout the day from the moment one stood up. One is instructed to try to remember more from the bodily sensations rather than emotions or cognitive memory because the bodily memory is supposedly more precise and less likely to be distorted than the emotional memory. If loss of emotions due to awakening is an important cause of these memory issues than maybe training oneself to remember despite feeling little emotions may be part of how this is dealt with within the Longmen Pai.

Any information or perspective on this issue is highly welcome. 




 

[Lairg]

I have observed severe forgetfulness in quite a few cases.

 

The mind connects to the brain through an interface that looks a bit like honeycomb.

 

Various issues can cause the interface to be loosened from the mind energy field or from the brain structure or from both. 

 

Dementia seems to be exactly that process.   Some autism cases are similar. 

 

Physical causes include brain impacts and toxins. 

 

Where the human repeatedly rejects its state/functionality, the elemental intelligences of the physical body may act upon that instruction. 

 

Be careful what you wish for.

 

 

 

 

[markern]

I should perhaps add that Martin says that it is primarily the memory connected to daily life that is effected not so much long term learning, knowledge from books etc. It is especially things like what was I supposed to do today, what was I planning to do after this thing I am doing today and what happened earlier today etc. 

[Jenn]

In my experience, it is true depending on what you mean be "severe memory issues".

 

When you release the emotional information, you lose the "color" - including the host of mental nonsense like what other peoples reactions/thoughts/whatever were - I feel like my memories have shifted from third person to first person (it's funny they were in 3rd person at all). But you remember the facts. Although without the emotional context, the memory no longer resurfaces regularly, so it does start to fade. Personally, I find it a relief. It also makes enjoying new and repeat experiences easier, because what you experience in the present is no longer in the shadow of what you experienced in the past. It is no longer "this strawberry is good, but I have had better", it is "yum, strawberry". Or "ugh, great, now I need to work with so-and-so whose such a xyz" to "hi, let's do this!". You see things as they are in the moment, not some distorted version of what you think they were overlaid onto the present.

 

I also find I am less "invested" in insignificant things. I no longer ruminate about some minor thing that happened, so the information isn't as readily available in my short term memory. It happens, it ends, I move on. I forget about it, but if I try to think about it, it is still there (albeit slower to access). But then again, why try to think about it? I also find this to be a relief. That said I also simplified the work I do to be less mentally taxing, not because I was worried about my memory, but to reduce stress and have more energy to use during my free time.

 

The other memory related effect I have noticed is dilated time, which "distorts" when memories happened. I frequently remember something and it feels like it was months ago when in fact it was a few weeks ago. I haven't really been bothered by this, but it does create funny situations at work sometimes. I don't feel like things are racing by any more.

 

I can still study and learn new things. Skills I learned earlier in life, let atrophy, then try again still come back quickly (although in some cases that isn't always great either, like muscle memory from when I was more dysfunctional).

 

I don't feel like I struggle to remember what happened earlier in the day or in the last few days, but I definitely do not have quick access to the minutiae of life for long. I never realized what a big part of the experience of life previously was predicated on memory, I don't experience that much anymore, now the experience is based more on immediate senses and feelings. Another relief to be honest.

 

I haven't had trouble remembering things like where my keys are or what I am doing / need to do (well, anymore than usual - I have never been great at either thing). That said I did invest a lot of effort to simply my life so there is just less to remember. Life had gotten so complex and scheduled and I was starting to find that very stressful and repressive. So... hard to say if I saw an impact in this area of memory or not because of changes I previously made to reduce stress that coincided with the changes internally.

 

That said, I did go through a brief period of time earlier on where I was concerned about memory loss (struggling to remember facts / peoples names / struggling to find words). I don't know what that was (or if it was unrelated), but it doesn't bother me anymore. As I write this response I realize it is hard to say if I got used to it and stopped worrying about it, or it was just a phase that passed. It is possible when I thought I was "finally seeing how stressed out my life had become and deciding to simplify", I was actually experiencing new stress due to lowered mental capacity - hard to say. But I can still code, learn, get what I need done, do the things I value without any perceived drop in performance/ability and am not struggling to remember words anymore. My life is definitely better now than it was before, so... I'm not too worried about it.  I am in a healthier place, and "little brain-y" definitely feels happier after decades of being pushed to the max.

 

In fact, there are other areas where I am still actively working on forgetting / letting go. I still remember too much hehe.

 

But I can see how some practices (and more importantly ways people use those practices) can lead to imbalance. The mind is very delicate and memory is tied into the physical body, senses, emotion, energy, etc - it seems reasonable to me that an imbalanced approach that does not work the whole system gently could cause issues. Especially if you alter the mind quickly without also supporting / allowing the adjustment throughout the other affected systems. In my practice we don't really work the mind directly, we work on the physical, emotional, sense and energetic systems and allow release in those areas to release the mind naturally. Memories lose their color and prominence, but you gain wisdom from reintegrating the information stored in these other systems when the mind is unburdened and in turn can let go. Also I think (at least in the west) there is a tendency to use very forceful intention and effort to tame the mind like your breaking a stallion, rather than gently guiding and supporting change at a pace that allows healthy adjustment. Just like if you are an athlete that goes too hard too fast, you may cause injury or force your body to maladapt to cope.

[qin00b]

7 hours ago, markern said:

I should perhaps add that Martin says that it is primarily the memory connected to daily life that is effected not so much long term learning, knowledge from books etc. It is especially things like what was I supposed to do today, what was I planning to do after this thing I am doing today and what happened earlier today etc. 

 

FWIW, he also notes that memories are still made, just not as easily accessed due to an increased focus on present moment experience. (edit:  I believe it was that it takes effort to access such non-habituated memories, which such Finders would not want to expend, so they don't). 

 

I recall somewhere in one of the zuowang books, a story of a master who would come out of meditation forgetting how to do basic tasks. It was a fun story and I'll have to look it up again, but that may give some insight. 

Edited Tuesday at 08:12 PM by qin00b

[markern]

4 hours ago, Jenn said:

In my experience, it is true depending on what you mean be "severe memory issues".

 

 

Thank you Jenn for a truly excellent, insightful and supremely useful answer:)

[markern]

16 minutes ago, qin00b said:

 

FWIW, he also notes that memories are still made, just not as easily accessed due to an increased focus on present moment experience. (edit:  I believe it was that it takes effort to access such non-habituated memories, which such Finders would not want to expend, so they don't). 

 

I recall somewhere in one of the zuowang books, a story of a master who would come out of meditation forgetting how to do basic tasks. It was a fun story and I'll have to look it up again, but that may give some insight. 

Thanks. This makes sense.

I could add that the by far most enlightened person I have ever meet does not have any such issues. 

[Lairg]

 

I recall long ago living in a spiritual community that often I could remember nothing from the previous week.  My consciousness and awareness were changing quickly 

 

It  seemed to me that the brain memories were being stored using the consciousness of that day.

 

A week later with a different consciousness it was difficult to decode the brain memories.

 

Are recent memories being stored in the brain - perhaps until processed by the mind for long term storage?

 

Amongst old people it is common they remember events of their youth quite clearly - but not what happened last week

 

 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 08:56 PM by Lairg

[idquest]

9 hours ago, Jenn said:

In my experience, it is true depending on what you mean be "severe memory issues".

 

When you release the emotional information, you lose the "color" - including the host of mental nonsense like what other peoples reactions/thoughts/whatever were - I feel like my memories have shifted from third person to first person (it's funny they were in 3rd person at all). But you remember the facts. Although without the emotional context, the memory no longer resurfaces regularly, so it does start to fade. Personally, I find it a relief. It also makes enjoying new and repeat experiences easier, because what you experience in the present is no longer in the shadow of what you experienced in the past. It is no longer "this strawberry is good, but I have had better", it is "yum, strawberry". Or "ugh, great, now I need to work with so-and-so whose such a xyz" to "hi, let's do this!". You see things as they are in the moment, not some distorted version of what you think they were overlaid onto the present.

 

I also find I am less "invested" in insignificant things. I no longer ruminate about some minor thing that happened, so the information isn't as readily available in my short term memory. It happens, it ends, I move on. I forget about it, but if I try to think about it, it is still there (albeit slower to access). But then again, why try to think about it? I also find this to be a relief. That said I also simplified the work I do to be less mentally taxing, not because I was worried about my memory, but to reduce stress and have more energy to use during my free time.

 

The other memory related effect I have noticed is dilated time, which "distorts" when memories happened. I frequently remember something and it feels like it was months ago when in fact it was a few weeks ago. I haven't really been bothered by this, but it does create funny situations at work sometimes. I don't feel like things are racing by any more.

 

I can still study and learn new things. Skills I learned earlier in life, let atrophy, then try again still come back quickly (although in some cases that isn't always great either, like muscle memory from when I was more dysfunctional).

 

I don't feel like I struggle to remember what happened earlier in the day or in the last few days, but I definitely do not have quick access to the minutiae of life for long. I never realized what a big part of the experience of life previously was predicated on memory, I don't experience that much anymore, now the experience is based more on immediate senses and feelings. Another relief to be honest.

 

I haven't had trouble remembering things like where my keys are or what I am doing / need to do (well, anymore than usual - I have never been great at either thing). That said I did invest a lot of effort to simply my life so there is just less to remember. Life had gotten so complex and scheduled and I was starting to find that very stressful and repressive. So... hard to say if I saw an impact in this area of memory or not because of changes I previously made to reduce stress that coincided with the changes internally.

 

That said, I did go through a brief period of time earlier on where I was concerned about memory loss (struggling to remember facts / peoples names / struggling to find words). I don't know what that was (or if it was unrelated), but it doesn't bother me anymore. As I write this response I realize it is hard to say if I got used to it and stopped worrying about it, or it was just a phase that passed. It is possible when I thought I was "finally seeing how stressed out my life had become and deciding to simplify", I was actually experiencing new stress due to lowered mental capacity - hard to say. But I can still code, learn, get what I need done, do the things I value without any perceived drop in performance/ability and am not struggling to remember words anymore. My life is definitely better now than it was before, so... I'm not too worried about it.  I am in a healthier place, and "little brain-y" definitely feels happier after decades of being pushed to the max.

 

In fact, there are other areas where I am still actively working on forgetting / letting go. I still remember too much hehe.

 

But I can see how some practices (and more importantly ways people use those practices) can lead to imbalance. The mind is very delicate and memory is tied into the physical body, senses, emotion, energy, etc - it seems reasonable to me that an imbalanced approach that does not work the whole system gently could cause issues. Especially if you alter the mind quickly without also supporting / allowing the adjustment throughout the other affected systems. In my practice we don't really work the mind directly, we work on the physical, emotional, sense and energetic systems and allow release in those areas to release the mind naturally. Memories lose their color and prominence, but you gain wisdom from reintegrating the information stored in these other systems when the mind is unburdened and in turn can let go. Also I think (at least in the west) there is a tendency to use very forceful intention and effort to tame the mind like your breaking a stallion, rather than gently guiding and supporting change at a pace that allows healthy adjustment. Just like if you are an athlete that goes too hard too fast, you may cause injury or force your body to maladapt to cope.

 

What you describe as your personal experience is a well know phenomenon in the western occult practices  - a phenomenon caused by 'akasha' (if one were to use terminology of Franz Bardon's Kabala). There is also a tool/technology to counteract this undesirable effect, namely using 'non-dual light' meditation. Mark Rasmus talks A LOT about this and how one should take precautionary measures so that one's life is not disrupted.

[Jenn]

1 hour ago, idquest said:

 

What you describe as your personal experience is a well know phenomenon in the western occult practices  - a phenomenon caused by 'akasha' (if one were to use terminology of Franz Bardon's Kabala). There is also a tool/technology to counteract this undesirable effect, namely using 'non-dual light' meditation. Mark Rasmus talks A LOT about this and how one should take precautionary measures so that one's life is not disrupted.

I appreciate the information on akasha and a way to counteract the effects. I might have done a poor job explaining myself, but actually I am much happier now. The change in the way I experience memory hasn't been detrimental, it has been a huge relief.

 

But I can see how others might not see it that way.

[stirling]

19 hours ago, markern said:

I am wondering what the Daoist take on this is. I am almost certain I recall Freeform writing that this was well known in his tradition and seen as an imbalance they had practices to counteract. I would love to know more about that. I think Freeform has mainly practiced within the Longmen Pai lineage.

 

I practice in the Soto Zen tradition, but this effect would be true in any tradition where enlightenment is the realization of not two/one/unity.

 

Martin's research matches the experience of every realized teacher I have ever encountered. When I first met my teacher realization had happened for "me" about a year previously, and she told me of this side effect amongst a fascinating host of others (such as intriguing shifts in proprioception, for example). Her prediction has turned out to be true in my case. Older memories seem to be fine, but newer memories not as much, unless there real novelty and some emotional impact with it. 

 

The fact is after you have realized that time (amongst other things) is a delusion, the depth of your presence in the "now" increases and deepens... add to this that emotions are attenuated, since they tend to arise and pass quickly like all phenomena, and you have this new way of being. In daily life it isn't really a problem, when the reality of how things are is understood. I can see how this would be difficult to understand and seem frightening, but senior realized teachers I know run monasteries, advisory boards, and have sanghas with dozens of students. I find that the reminder and calendaring functions of my phone make it much less of a problem. 

 

Quote

I also think maybe a memory exercise that is in one of Damos books may be one of the practices used to counteract this issue. The exercise involves trying to remember everything one did throughout the day from the moment one stood up. One is instructed to try to remember more from the bodily sensations rather than emotions or cognitive memory because the bodily memory is supposedly more precise and less likely to be distorted than the emotional memory. If loss of emotions due to awakening is an important cause of these memory issues than maybe training oneself to remember despite feeling little emotions may be part of how this is dealt with within the Longmen Pai.

 

Those that I have met with the "problem" of realization wouldn't fight its consequences. Deciding that this memory thing is problem is just a road to struggle and suffering... it isn't. It is a side-effect of deep, long fought for, peace and understanding. Like the rest of life, it isn't really an inconvenience until you struggle (attachment and aversion) with it. I don't know anyone with realization that would.  

 

-

 

Just to add - part of realization for me is knowing that everything that could be needed in the moment currently occupied is available, including memories. Why worry?