If there is no self then how does rebirth work?

[Keith108]

3 hours ago, Neirong said:

 

 

Buddha did not create or invent the concepts of reincarnation and rebirth; Buddhism is a relatively modern religion. These concepts far predate Buddhism.
 

The spiritual world exists whether or not anyone believes in it—it is an objective part of reality.
 

All around this thread is an astounding display of secular and cultist worldviews, locked into a narrow paradigm that fails to describe the entirety of existence.
 

You are not truly seeking or pursuing the truth; you are only interested in confirming your established biases. This, to put it mildly, is the opposite direction of cultivation or spiritual development.

 

 

A silly statement to make on a public forum. You could try to make a list of how many actual buddhists are there, by verifiying their credentials, wherever they have at least a decade of in-person training in any reputable temple under qualified Buddhist Master, wherever they have any genuine attainments.

Refrain to talking only with these people if you cannot bear to talk with "non-buddhists". 

Similarly, as with any other tradition, you don’t become a Buddhist or a Daoist simply by reading a few random books, attending a few random seminars, or believing that you align with certain values.

 

 

Preserving the self into the next life is the very first step of real self-development path. If you cannot achieve that, death will multiply your attainments by zero.
 

There is a checkpoint that allows one to accomplish this, but the majority are never able to progress that far.
 

Life is short.

 

Welp, I guess you told me! 

 

Since we are in the Buddhist discussion forum, I feel ok with my words. The words above are a jumble of defensive nonsense. 

 

Round and round... (Get it? it's a rebirth thread! )

[stirling]

5 hours ago, Neirong said:

The spiritual world exists whether or not anyone believes in it—it is an objective part of reality.

 

Perhaps, but for most it isn't. It is a story you tell yourself. A belief. I've seen some truly strange things, but I won't argue that they are any kind of objective reality. 

 

5 hours ago, Neirong said:

All around this thread is an astounding display of secular and cultist worldviews, locked into a narrow paradigm that fails to describe the entirety of existence.
 

You are not truly seeking or pursuing the truth; you are only interested in confirming your established biases. This, to put it mildly, is the opposite direction of cultivation or spiritual development.

 

A silly statement to make on a public forum. You could try to make a list of how many actual buddhists are there, by verifiying their credentials, wherever they have at least a decade of in-person training in any reputable temple under qualified Buddhist Master, wherever they have any genuine attainments.

Refrain to talking only with these people if you cannot bear to talk with "non-buddhists". 

Similarly, as with any other tradition, you don’t become a Buddhist or a Daoist simply by reading a few random books, attending a few random seminars, or believing that you align with certain values.

 

Preserving the self into the next life is the very first step of real self-development path. If you cannot achieve that, death will multiply your attainments by zero.

 

I disagree with your assessment of this poster. I think they are actually being kind and deferential. Please consider adopting a similar attitude Collegiality is valued here.

[old3bob]

 

hmm, is suffering also a story we tell ourselves?

 

And I've wondered why the first noble truth is not enlightenment, since as you seem to say all the rest are stories....   (anyone else is also free to reply,  a cat may have got to Stirling'?)

 

Some little quotes that one may come across:  

1. "We are intrinsically enlightened and lack nothing."  – HH Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche

 

2. Paraphrasing Zen Priest Kobutsu Shindo, the first thing the Buddha said when he awakened was, “Wonder of wonders, all beings are truly enlightened.”

 

Edited March 12 by old3bob

[Keith108]

9 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

hmm, is suffering also a story we tell ourselves?

 

And I've wondered why the first noble truth is not enlightenment, since as you seem to say all the rest are stories....   (anyone else is also free to reply,  a cat may have got to Stirling'?)

 

Some little quotes that one may come across:  

1. "We are intrinsically enlightened and lack nothing."  – HH Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche

 

2. Paraphrasing Zen Priest Kobutsu Shindo, the first thing the Buddha said when he awakened was, “Wonder of wonders, all beings are truly enlightened.”

 

 

We are off topic, but these are teaching words and stories. 

 

Buddhist practice is a stripping away of delusion. The three poisons of ignorance, hatred, and greed cloud over a clear view of the world and ourselves. Through the practice of silent sitting, we see our delusive habits, and begin to let them go. Then, in an instant, correct view appears. This is called "enlightenment". That correct view is always there. And yes, for me that's a story. I am not claiming any kind of enlightenment, although there have been glimpses. Those glimpses give me trust in the Dharma.

 

Dukkha is as plain as touching my nose on my face. It's a delusion to think otherwise, for me at least. It is caused by a never ending search to be happy. Not getting enough of the things I want, and too much of the things I don't want. It's not complicated. It's right there, plain to see, every moment of every day. Fortunately, once we see it, we can come to terms with it, and it becomes less troubling.

 

Also, as far as the general conversation goes, I think it's important to say that I don't personally deny the existence of spiritual worlds, God, Supreme Self, etc., etc. I just don't find them important to practice and my life. Lifetime to lifetime rebirth is like that. I have the Precepts, which help guide me along to something resembling a morally upright life, but moment to moment is where it's at for me.

 

And lastly, it's even more important to note that I don't think that I am speaking for all of Buddhism. In fact, I just speak for just one person practicing a very small part of Buddhism (Western Zen with Korean roots). Buddhism is a very wide and varied religion, with many cultural and practical differences with the way it is practiced around the world. Theravada, Pure Land, and Vajrayana, etc. practitioners would likely have very different responses to the OP. 

 

_/|\_

Edited March 12 by Keith108

[Keith108]

PS 

 

It also occurred to me that the best advice I ever heard was to "Practice and see what happens". You don't have to believe anything. Studying the Dharma just helps give us the background framework for practice. But it is like the old saw: It's not enough to describe the taste of an apple. You actually have to take a bite."  

 

_/|\_

Edited March 12 by Keith108

[stirling]

12 hours ago, old3bob said:

hmm, is suffering also a story we tell ourselves?

 

Oh, absolutely. Anybody patient enough to develop a meditation practice with access to a realized teacher can have this cleared up experientially within a month, for moments at a time, building faith in the practice. 

 

Quote

And I've wondered why the first noble truth is not enlightenment, since as you seem to say all the rest are stories....   (anyone else is also free to reply,  a cat may have got to Stirling'?)

 

Well... it is, but it is being expressed using the "via negativa". Cessation, or Nirodha is the fourth Noble Truth, the end of suffering.  Cessation, which can be temporarily experienced by even a beginner (with some pointing) as I mentioned above, is "self" dropping out. It is pure presence/awareness. Your earlier quote captures this perfectly via Buddhism's "Einstein", Nagarjuna:

 

Quote

ok, and take this as you will,  "Ultimately, Nirvana truly realized is Samsara properly understood".   Nagarjuna

 

When you COMPLETELY understand that Samsara is generated by your creation of Karma, Nirvana is the result. No-one to generate karma means that the creation of it ceases, and old karma is seen through and falls away. 

 

Quote

Some little quotes that one may come across:  

1. "We are intrinsically enlightened and lack nothing."  – HH Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche

 

2. Paraphrasing Zen Priest Kobutsu Shindo, the first thing the Buddha said when he awakened was, “Wonder of wonders, all beings are truly enlightened.”

 

Beautiful quotes. Not only are all BEINGS are enlightened, the fabric of reality is enlightened, or :

 

Quote

All this that is in front is but Brahman, the Immortal.  Brahman is at the back, as also on the right and the left.  It is extended above and below, too. This world is nothing but Brahman, the Highest. - Mundakopanishad ( 2.2.11)

 

[old3bob]

 

Thanks for your honest feedback Keith,    You are a cool guy.

 

In your comments you said,  "suffering is plain as touching my nose on my face"...well to me that is not exactly written in stone since suffering or what feels like a curse one day can end up turning into the best thing that ever happened to oneself after its ran its course.

I think you probably know what I mean but for an example, my brother was in the county jail for awhile which he said was dangerous and filthy but when he got out he said it was one of the best things that ever happened to him because he then knew he really had to get his act together!  

[old3bob]

 

Thanks also Stirling, you are always upbeat and a great correlator!  

 

[stirling]

4 hours ago, Keith108 said:

Buddhist practice is a stripping away of delusion. The three poisons of ignorance, hatred, and greed cloud over a clear view of the world and ourselves. Through the practice of silent sitting, we see our delusive habits, and begin to let them go. Then, in an instant, correct view appears. This is called "enlightenment". That correct view is always there. And yes, for me that's a story. I am not claiming any kind of enlightenment, although there have been glimpses. Those glimpses give me trust in the Dharma.

 

This is a nice summary, thank you. This is what happens. Practice, and some pointing leads to being able to see what "no-self" and "emptiness" are. Once recognized you have all the tools you need to rest in that spaciousness. It isn't actually that hard. 

 

4 hours ago, Keith108 said:

Dukkha is as plain as touching my nose on my face. It's a delusion to think otherwise, for me at least. It is caused by a never ending search to be happy. Not getting enough of the things I want, and too much of the things I don't want. It's not complicated. It's right there, plain to see, every moment of every day. Fortunately, once we see it, we can come to terms with it, and it becomes less troubling.

 

The truth of suffering is undeniable. Anyone who looks at their life will see it. I also REALLY like the tools of attachment and aversion for looking at how we generate Samsara/suffering. Once we see the mechanism we use to generate our suffering, it becomes more and more obvious how we generate it. 

 

4 hours ago, Keith108 said:

Also, as far as the general conversation goes, I think it's important to say that I don't personally deny the existence of spiritual worlds, God, Supreme Self, etc., etc. I just don't find them important to practice and my life. Lifetime to lifetime rebirth is like that. I have the Precepts, which help guide me along to something resembling a morally upright life, but moment to moment is where it's at for me.

 

I agree. I'll go further and say that all manner of beings exist in their way, but even gods (in Buddhism) are not enlightened, and would need to become enlightened to realize their true nature and truly master reality. These beings are not as we imagine them. 

[stirling]

18 minutes ago, old3bob said:

I think you probably know what I mean but for an example, my brother was in the county jail for awhile which he said was dangerous and filthy but when he got out he said it was one of the best things that ever happened to him because he then knew he really had to get his act together!  

 

I have a friend who was being sued for an honest mistake and was at risk of losing his retirement. The one thing he refused to do was declare bankruptsy because of his cherished values. He eventually realized that there was no other path and "surrendered" to what wanted to happen in reality. It was the best thing that ever happened to him. Realizing that he had no money, the people never sued him, and kept his holdings, as ended up with more money because a good chunk of his debt was forgiven. He became a much more kind, generous, and humble person as a result.

 

A more famous example is the old Chinese "Maybe So" fable:

 

Quote

An old Chinese farmer saved up small amounts of money over a year to buy a new horse. Just a day after the farmer bought the horse, it ran away. His neighbour expressed grief, but the farmer himself was calm. “I hope you can get over this bad news” said the neighbor. “Good news or bad news, can’t say” replied the farmer.

 

The next day, the horse returned to the farmer’s house by itself, and brought another stray horse with it. “Cheer up, we’re going to multiply our farm income. That’s great news” said the farmer’s son. “Good news or bad news, can’t say” replied the farmer and carried on with his work.

 

A week later, the farmer took the first horse to his farm and his son took the second horse to follow his father to work. On the way, the second horse pushed the boy down and ran away. The boy’s leg was fractured badly. That evening back home, the farmer’s wife groaned “We will have to spend all our extra savings on our son’s broken leg. What a terrible news”. Once again, the farmer replied: “Good news or bad news, can’t say.”

 

A month later, the farmer’s King announced a war on the neighboring nation. Citing a lack of foot soldiers, the King ordered all able-bodied men in the nation to get drafted into the military without excuses. The farmer’s son was spared because of his broken leg. Later, the inexperienced soldiers got slaughtered in the war. “You are lucky that your son did not get drafted. Mine returned with severe injuries. Many have been handicapped or killed” complained the farmer’s best friend. Unabashed, the farmer responded: “Good news or bad news, can’t say”.

 

Accepting things as they are without generating a story about whether they are good or bad is a great way to reduce suffering. As you suggest, one days misfortune is the next days good luck.

[stirling]

27 minutes ago, old3bob said:

Thanks also Stirling, you are always upbeat and a great correlator!  

 

I appreciate that, Bob.

[Keith108]

19 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

Thanks for your honest feedback Keith,    You are a cool guy.

 

In your comments you said,  "suffering is plain as touching my nose on my face"...well to me that is not exactly written in stone since suffering or what feels like a curse one day can end up turning into the best thing that ever happened to oneself after its ran its course.

I think you probably know what I mean but for an example, my brother was in the county jail for awhile which he said was dangerous and filthy but when he got out he said it was one of the best things that ever happened to him because he then knew he really had to get his act together!  

 

Thanks for the kind words, Bob. 

 

Dukkha (dissatisfaction), is one of Buddhism's Three Marks of Existence. The other two are Annica (Impermanence), and Anatta (not self). Stirling brought up the oft used "maybe so" story that is parable about life being in constant flux, as with your brother's jail experience.

 

I used the word "dissatisfaction", instead of suffering. Life isn't a constant stream of depressing suffering. There are plenty of joyful moments, it's just that they don't last. That's impermanence. Nothing lasts. So, our life becomes a constant chase to find some kind of lasting happiness. And, it's exhausting.

 

There is also the constant need to prop of the idea of self. This idea has only two jobs: find lasting happiness in world where that is impossible. And to not die. This idea is very pernicious, and leads to all kinds of mayhem and yes, suffering. 

 

So, these three "Marks" taken together, either moment to moment, or lifetime to lifetime if you like, constitute samsara, which is the problem that Buddhism addresses. 

 

It's really not as depressing as some make it. For me at least, it is very liberating. Understanding the issue is the first step to overcoming it. 

 

_/|\_ 

[Jadespear]

On 3/6/2025 at 9:03 PM, Tommy said:

Yeah, this was probably asked before. But, I got to ask, ...

 

One of the basic teachings of Buddha is the concept of no self. If there is no self then how does rebirth work? If there is no soul to be reborn into another life then what does go on? Karma??

 

What is the important lesson to be learned by going thru all the births, deaths and rebirths? Does a true realization of no self grant freedom from suffering, a liberation from rebirth? How does the realized mental state of consciousness allow for that?

 

Please note: Due to reactions I have received recently, I have to say that I am not looking for a fight. Not trying to insult anyone. Just true curiosity. Do not take offense for my words. If you have an opinion then please respond.

 

 

... without experiencing what you actually are, this line of thinking is just intellectual speculation - which is like guessing, bereft of actual knowledge.  What buddhists claim as the "no-self" is the just the same as what hindus call the purusa, or eternal energy that enables your existence - the underlying intelligence or "shining self" expounded on at length in the Vedic Upanishads.   It is without personality, hence the term "no-self" is used.  Taoists call it the "tao"... as in - "the tao is hidden deeply in all things.".  It all means the same thing - it is the literal quality of God that makes you alive.  Your "spirit" if you will.  Your personal consciousness / personality is the literal storehouse and continued expression of all impressions/habits mental, emotional, and physical that you have ever experienced/reinforced/aspired to in every lifetime you have lived, including this one - these are stored and make up what occultists call the "mental body".  The mental body survives physical death and retains its qualities.   

 

There is no grand lesson to learn, beyond living.  People who claim that life has some common goal I don't believe.  If it did, how come no one knows what it is?  The purpose of life, is to live life, to live your own life, nothing more.  There are those who develop appreciation for all life has to offer and in so knowing that, find spreading joy and happiness as a reason to live... joy and happiness through truth, knowledge, courage, and volition - about esoteric subjects and also in sensational pleasures, eating, drinking, creating things, etc.  

 

The doctrine of karma gets a bad wrap really...all to often is used to encourage people to be good, which isn't bad per se, is very good.  However - karma is just the relationship of cause and effect, and morality is a two-fold judgmental proposition.  Nothing is actually good or evil, everything simply occurs due to the working of the law of karma.  Ones fate and destiny across lifetimes and in the present one is the outcome of the working of karma.  However - all people are free-willed and can change their future at any moment.  Hence, the law of karma is not infinite to a final /fatalistic end, but is dynamic and perpetual according to oneself/ones state of being, motion and desire.  

 

There are a few books on these subjects if you really want to learn about them.  I would caution that many current understandings about philosophy from thousands of years ago are misunderstood and mistranslated.  Case in point - the entire Buddhist position.

Properly translated in Tibetan - the first noble truth taught by the buddha Gautama means this: "Life is like a wheel that does not sit correctly on its hinge."  Far from the whole "life is suffering" position people for whatever reason came to say and espouse.  So - going back to the real translation - what does it mean?  It means "life is uncertain"... none of us know what will happen tomorrow...not too life altering is it?  Hahaha.  Furthermore - the entire idea that people are supposed to escape life existence that comes from the improper understanding is entirely eliminated.  Because that makes no sense at all.  Thats why there is no grand goal, beyond whatever you want your life to be.  

 

We're all just temporary forms of the divine, expressing our nature as humans.  

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, Jadespear said:

People who claim that life has some common goal I don't believe.  If it did, how come no one knows what it is?  

 

The Artemis Accords give a hint.  They are an agreement for ethical management of the solar system - now signed by some 53 nations.  The agreed ethics are much better than those same nations practice on this planet

 

https://www.nasa.gov/artemis-accords/

 

 

Edited March 16 by Lairg

[Tommy]

14 hours ago, Jadespear said:

There is no grand lesson to learn, beyond living.  People who claim that life has some common goal I don't believe.  If it did, how come no one knows what it is?  The purpose of life, is to live life, to live your own life, nothing more.  There are those who develop appreciation for all life has to offer and in so knowing that, find spreading joy and happiness as a reason to live... joy and happiness through truth, knowledge, courage, and volition - about esoteric subjects and also in sensational pleasures, eating, drinking, creating things, etc.  

 

The doctrine of karma gets a bad wrap really...all to often is used to encourage people to be good, which isn't bad per se, is very good.  However - karma is just the relationship of cause and effect, and morality is a two-fold judgmental proposition.  Nothing is actually good or evil, everything simply occurs due to the working of the law of karma.  Ones fate and destiny across lifetimes and in the present one is the outcome of the working of karma.  However - all people are free-willed and can change their future at any moment.  Hence, the law of karma is not infinite to a final /fatalistic end, but is dynamic and perpetual according to oneself/ones state of being, motion and desire.  

 

 

We're all just temporary forms of the divine, expressing our nature as humans.  

You say there is no grand lesson, beyond living. But, then you give the reason of developing appreciation for all life has to offer. I think you are missing the differences in those statements.

 

Buddhist believe there is no self because the body is made up of aggregates. These aggregates make up this self that one grows up to know as self. There is no one thing inside of the body that can be called the self. Like the car is just a collection of items. There is not one thing inside the car that is essentially a car. It is a collection of stuff. Yet, one clings to the idea that we are all temporary forms of the divine. Everything is related and so everything is divine. Everything is special and so, nothing is special. Point to that which is spirit or soul or divine?? This mind is the result of this body. If one drinks alcohol then one will get a change in awareness. The alcohol affects the body which affects the mind. This mind is of the body. There is no divine essence. One only wishes it to be so. When a person dies, memories do not continue only Karma.

 

What you believe in is up to you. It is your choice. Buddha gave a different Idea. And it is up to the individual to claim the truth. And ignorance can not be vanquished by thoughts or book only thru experience. The more knowledge you gain thru books then the more stuff you have to organize. The knowledge gained thru experience will organize you. That is my belief and opinion.

Edited March 16 by Tommy

[old3bob]

 

How many schools of Buddhism speak of Buddha nature, and did not the historic Buddha speak of same himself,

For instance:

 

thus to me there was far more than him only walking around on auto pilot and repeatedly saying no-self, no-self, no-self;

btw who or what is it that "escapes" per his quote above....(?)

 

 

[Tommy]

This thread is about the paradox of no self and rebirth. A person may not have a self as in soul or spirit . But, it also does not deny the chance to escape rebirth cause there is such a thing as birth. It is the Karmic energy that flows from one cycle to the next. This Karma is created by ignorance and cravings.

 

Take what you will from that. I know you have read many books and have much knowledge from those readings. I wish you well.

Edited March 16 by Tommy

[Keith108]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

How many schools of Buddhism speak of Buddha nature, and did not the historic Buddha speak of same himself,

For instance:

 

thus to me there was far more than him only walking around on auto pilot and repeatedly saying no-self, no-self, no-self;

btw who or what is it that "escapes" per his quote above....(?)

 

 

 

The words "no-self" set up a dualism that isn't there. Better is "not-self".

 

For instance:

 

Quote

""Bhikkhus, form is not-self. Were form self, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' And since form is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus."

 

From here. Interestingly, there are two other translations offered, both rendering anatta as "not self". "No self" is simply not a useful translation of anatta.

 

If the five agregates are not self, then what sees, hears, etc.?  That can only be discovered through direct realization. 

 

_/|\_

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Keith108 said:

 

The words "no-self" set up a dualism that isn't there. Better is "not-self".

 

For instance:

From here. Interestingly, there are two other translations offered, both rendering anatta as "not self". "No self" is simply not a useful translation of anatta.

 

If the five agregates are not self, then what sees, hears, etc.?  That can only be discovered through direct realization. 

 

_/|\_

 

and with more context it could also be said no permanent or set attachment or set identification with passing constructs...

Btw. per the non-dichotomy of non-dualism elemental energies that arise or pass into various forms are not disconnected or illusion per -se just an incomplete perception of "samsara" that when properly understood being nirvana"....(my paraphrase)

[Lairg]

The other day a friend and I were dealing with a new born child that was having a lot of trouble - on intubated oxygen.

 

As we interacted with the child we both saw a small ball of light come into the top of his head.  Then he started moving his limbs more actively and breathing more deeply.

 

What entered the child?

 

Long ago there was a similar event with my elder son.  When the incoming light reached his intestines, suddenly his colic was gone - and I did not have to carry him around at 2 am each night.

 

Is the incarnation process progressive?

 

 

[Cobie]

16 minutes ago, Lairg said:

… What entered the child? …

Is the incarnation process progressive?

Yes, these are the questions. I have seen this light in others. I have experienced it entering me. 

Could be me. It feels to me more like assistance from another source.  

 

 

Edited March 16 by Cobie

[Lairg]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

It feels to me more like assistance from another source

 

There are many beneficial and adverse intelligences that like to assist/subvert the human.

 

There are various experiments for testing such intelligences. 

 

A simple experiment is putting attention to the spirit and visualizing next to the spirit various test phrases.  If the phrase is well-suited there will usually be a strong reaction.  For example the words might be drawn into the entity  or catch fire  

 

If the words are not quite right they might sit there and tremble.  If the words are unsuitable they might slide away.

 

Vary the words until there is a satisfactory match.  

 

That experiment can be done with a friend so that there are two views of the results

 

 

If the human is progressing spiritually there are many light-body upgrades offered.  These usually facilitate  alignment, improve inner senses and sometimes add new skills

 

 

 

Edited March 17 by Lairg

[Cobie]

15 hours ago, Lairg said:

There are many beneficial and adverse intelligences that like to assist/subvert the human.

 

Not for me. For me there are no "many".  For me there is only the one, God. And hence for me, nothing can "subvert" me. 

 

 

Edited March 17 by Cobie

[stirling]

On 3/16/2025 at 8:06 AM, old3bob said:

 

 

thus to me there was far more than him only walking around on auto pilot and repeatedly saying no-self, no-self, no-self;

btw who or what is it that "escapes" per his quote above....(?)

 

The not born, not-become, not-made, not-compounded escapes from the limited view of "self" that believes it is born, become, made, and compounded. It can sound complicated, but it is simple misperception of the reality of things.

[Cobie]

On 16/03/2025 at 5:53 PM, Keith108 said:

… Better is "not-self" …  the five agregates are not self …

Perfect. That really cleared the whole issue for me, thanks.