If there is no self then how does rebirth work?

[Lairg]

5 hours ago, Cobie said:

For me there is only the one, God. And hence for me, nothing can "subvert" me.

 

I look back on my bad choices and wrong turns.    I have learned to be careful in what I accept

 

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

22 hours ago, stirling said:

 

The not born, not-become, not-made, not-compounded escapes from the limited view of "self" that believes it is born, become, made, and compounded. It can sound complicated, but it is simple misperception of the reality of things.

 

Don't exactly agree with that apparent connotation (although it may just be the wording) since Buddha nature can never really be trapped so that it has to escape to then be Buddha nature which it always was and is....but when the veils completely lifted the historic Buddha is recorded as saying, "Wonder of Wonders..."

[stirling]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

Don't exactly agree with that apparent connotation (although it may just be the wording) since Buddha nature can never really be trapped so that it has to escape to then be Buddha nature which it always was and is....but when the veils completely lifted the historic Buddha is recorded as saying, "Wonder of Wonders..."

 

Well... I'm trying to honor the question as posed, from a translated 2500 year old document supposedly from the mouth of the Buddha.  

 

The second sentence is the real answer: It is a simple misperception of the reality of things. One one was ever trapped, there was no-one to escape, and nothing to escape from.

 

Is this a rabbit or a seagull?

 

 

It is both. It is neither... an image on a computer. Really, there is a deeper level - it is none of those - it is the "not born, not-become, not-made, not-compounded" as well, and always has been.

 

[Lairg]

39 minutes ago, stirling said:

One one was ever trapped, there was no-one to escape, and nothing to escape from.

 

Is the humanness the wrapper on the greater spirit - a wrapper to be discarded asap?

 

Is the humanness intended as an instrument so that the greater spirit  can have hands and feet in the outer world?

 

Is the humanness a component/organ in a greater system - so that the greater spirit might have a cosmic body of incarnation?

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

 

these two sound self contradictory and not cryptically veiled,  "One one was ever trapped" to "always has been". 

 

[stirling]

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

these two sound self contradictory and not cryptically veiled,  "One one was ever trapped" to "always has been".  

 

...should be "No-one" was ever trapped. My typo. 

[old3bob]

5 hours ago, stirling said:

 

...should be "No-one" was ever trapped. My typo. 

 

 ah, ok...

[Jadespear]

On 3/16/2025 at 8:51 AM, Tommy said:

You say there is no grand lesson, beyond living. But, then you give the reason of developing appreciation for all life has to offer. I think you are missing the differences in those statements.

 

Buddhist believe there is no self because the body is made up of aggregates. These aggregates make up this self that one grows up to know as self. There is no one thing inside of the body that can be called the self. Like the car is just a collection of items. There is not one thing inside the car that is essentially a car. It is a collection of stuff. Yet, one clings to the idea that we are all temporary forms of the divine. Everything is related and so everything is divine. Everything is special and so, nothing is special. Point to that which is spirit or soul or divine?? This mind is the result of this body. If one drinks alcohol then one will get a change in awareness. The alcohol affects the body which affects the mind. This mind is of the body. There is no divine essence. One only wishes it to be so. When a person dies, memories do not continue only Karma.

 

What you believe in is up to you. It is your choice. Buddha gave a different Idea. And it is up to the individual to claim the truth. And ignorance can not be vanquished by thoughts or book only thru experience. The more knowledge you gain thru books then the more stuff you have to organize. The knowledge gained thru experience will organize you. That is my belief and opinion.

 

 

Not really missing any differences no... sorry you have to take it all so literal, as if metaphysics is akin to reductionist mathematics.  Its not.  

 

Totally fine for buddhists to believe whatever they want, as again - thats part of life...everyone has the self evident truth of freewill to do and believe whatever they want.  Because they are "themselves". Ahem.  

 

This thread was started to ask about absolute truths, not relative ones.  The domain of the absolute is what philosophers and people here like to speculate onto based on relativity and many other things... your line of reasoning lacks any experience really at all to prove your assertions.  All just intellectual rationale.  You're claiming to know what happens to a person when they die?  Have you died?  Then how do you know?  You don't.  The sooner you stop talking like you know anything, and the quicker you start meditating - the faster you will learn.  

 

No divine essence huh?  How do you know?  I can't see emotions, but I feel their reality.  Your denial based on what you want to be true is ridiculous at best.  Yet still - the concept of "no-self" is present within buddhism.... wonder why?  No-self is the same as divine essence.  What do you think empowers yourself to even be able to think?  Intelligence does...it's what you are.  You don't "have it" per se, because "you are it".  It is there, it is you, it is the no-self.  The concept of no-self seems to be drawn in direct contrasting distinction to the idea of duality as an absolute condition of ones being.  Said another way, because everyone thinks about themselves all the time and has the working idea of how they experience the entirety of life as a separate individual from everything else, they must be reminded or introduced to the idea that they are "not-selves" as their true nature.  This is because - it is true.  You are not a separate being living  a myopic existence completely independent from everything else - thats a fact.  If you exist as anything - it's a fact.  Just like water in the ocean is part of the ocean in the relative duality understanding from the part to the whole, but in reality - there is no separation as the ocean is water everywhere - its absolute (non-dual).  The essence of whatever you want to call the real you.... the purusha (from samkhya), or the supreme ultimate (taoism)...does exist.  It's a fact.  Thats what buddhists call the no-self.  Just not the normal everyday self people identify as...  If you don't believe me, fine - go do what every other sage ever did - and look within to see what is there beyond duality, beyond thought, Hidden deep within.  Why else do you think people have proclaimed this throughout all of human history?  Your limited view of the aggregates or (elements) isn't enough to dispel the absolute truth of your original nature or the (ground) from dzogchen.  The elements themselves are also absolute in how they function...  

 

There are many things absolute.   

 

[Lairg]

36 minutes ago, Jadespear said:

There are many things absolute.  

 

Long ago I had a dream that helped me distinguish the absolute from manifested existence - by observation.

 

By absolute I mean what is - before and after the transience of universes and species

 

It is common for humans to anchor a thread of the absolute.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 03:44 AM by Lairg

[Tommy]

22 hours ago, Jadespear said:

This thread was started to ask about absolute truths, not relative ones.  The domain of the absolute is what philosophers and people here like to speculate onto based on relativity and many other things... your line of reasoning lacks any experience really at all to prove your assertions.  All just intellectual rationale.  You're claiming to know what happens to a person when they die?  Have you died?  Then how do you know?  You don't.  The sooner you stop talking like you know anything, and the quicker you start meditating - the faster you will learn.  

Thanks for the reply.

 

This thread was started by me to ask about no-self and rebirth. Nothing about absolutes. Nothing about relative truths.  So you start off on a false premise. Then you ask me if I know what happens when a person dies. The Buddha says there is no self that is reborn. That a person is a collection of stuff, aggregates. And when asked to show what is the essence that can be called this person, there is no such thing. A metaphor was a car. Take apart a car and you will not find one thing that is the essence that can be called a car. Similar with a person. I do not claim to know what happens when one dies. I only present what was taught to me. I do not believe I talk as if I know anything. But, I do as others have and regurgitate what I have learned. As for meditating, I have on and off practice for over 50 years. The one thing I did learn from that practice is that one can not proceed much further without a teacher and sangha.

 

22 hours ago, Jadespear said:

Totally fine for buddhists to believe whatever they want, as again - thats part of life...everyone has the self evident truth of freewill to do and believe whatever they want.  Because they are "themselves". Ahem.  

So why do you deny me this right of freewill?? The right to believe what I want??

 

22 hours ago, Jadespear said:

No divine essence huh?  How do you know?  I can't see emotions, but I feel their reality.  Your denial based on what you want to be true is ridiculous at best.  Yet still - the concept of "no-self" is present within buddhism.... wonder why?  No-self is the same as divine essence.

No, divine essence is not the same as No-self. When you use your conventional knowledge, that is fine for everyday use. It will help you get thru life. But, when you wish to see the ultimate truth, Buddha nature, then you will need to drop this self. For this self can not experience the truth. It is part of the delusion.

 

Your wish for divine essence to be real just because you can feel emotions doesn't make it real. Divine essence is the same as your emotions, feelings. They will disappear as soon as you die. Gone because they were nothing more than part of this delusion.

 

You have no need to listen to me or to read this thread. Totally fine for Buddhist to believe whatever they want. I wish you well and hope you find a teacher and sangha to help you on your spiritual journey.

Edited Wednesday at 01:42 AM by Tommy

[Lairg]

On 3/25/2025 at 1:07 PM, Jadespear said:

 You're claiming to know what happens to a person when they die?  Have you died?  Then how do you know?

 

I have conversed with my parents several times after they died.   My  mother appeared in my kitchen the morning after her death.  She found herself in a group learning how to manage planetary meridians. 

 

I hate to extrapolate from a sample of one.  Fortunately I have several friends that act as observers for my experiments

 

I recall my immediately previous death in 1941 -  a fatal flight in the RAF.  Some of my earlier deaths were less quick.  I hated waking up in coffins

 

 

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

 

lets see, the historic Buddha almost killed himself via starving the "delusion" of his body, but then he realized his body/mind are vehicles and not to be abused, broken, or discounted out of hand.  

 

Btw some Buddhists (and others) have experienced the import of quote below, are they to be written off as delusional ?

 

"While Quan Yin is often depicted as a feminine figure, she is a bodhisattva, a being of enlightenment who has chosen to remain in the world to help others, and is not considered to have a physical body in the traditional sense, but rather a manifestation of compassion and mercy."   

 

So I ask the "delusional" faction what kind of body after physical death floats around on a giant lotus flower and as a humanoid figure of spiritual light?

Edited Wednesday at 04:09 PM by old3bob

[Tommy]

Quan Yin is considered to be a Goddess of Mercy. How many Goddesses do you know have a human body?? Who said she was alive? Which Buddhist sect did this come from? Hmm. more legend than delusion?? Or more stories from the edge?? I don't know. But, how about bringing something up which we all can verify as real or existed? Anyway, you can believe whatever you wish to believe. You are not right nor wrong. But, I do not have to believe your words either. Fair??

[Giles]

On 07/03/2025 at 3:03 AM, Tommy said:

Yeah, this was probably asked before. But, I got to ask, ...

 

One of the basic teachings of Buddha is the concept of no self. If there is no self then how does rebirth work? If there is no soul to be reborn into another life then what does go on? Karma??

 

What is the important lesson to be learned by going thru all the births, deaths and rebirths? Does a true realization of no self grant freedom from suffering, a liberation from rebirth? How does the realized mental state of consciousness allow for that?

 

Please note: Due to reactions I have received recently, I have to say that I am not looking for a fight. Not trying to insult anyone. Just true curiosity. Do not take offense for my words. If you have an opinion then please respond.

 

 

It's an unfathomable Mystery, Tommy.

 

❤

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

Quan Yin is considered to be a Goddess of Mercy. How many Goddesses do you know have a human body?? Who said she was alive? Which Buddhist sect did this come from? Hmm. more legend than delusion?? Or more stories from the edge?? I don't know. But, how about bringing something up which we all can verify as real or existed? Anyway, you can believe whatever you wish to believe. You are not right nor wrong. But, I do not have to believe your words either. Fair??

 

no one can really verify such unless they  do so through first hand experience which is not second-hand....and yes I have had the good fortune  (and revealing help!) of seeing a Goddess, Guardian beings, Golden immortal and Sage in humanoid or energetic bodies that are far beyond just a physical earth body.  There are countless accounts of others with similar experience. For instance the historic Buddha inter-acting per well recognized sutra with a god so as to take on being a teacher and not just disappear into the forest.  Btw, no need to believe me  find out for yourself which is the only sure proof you will ever get.

Edited Wednesday at 11:47 PM by old3bob

[Tommy]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

no one can really verify such unless they  do so through first hand experience which is not second-hand....and yes I have had the good fortune  (and revealing help!) of seeing a Goddess, Guardian beings, Golden immortal and Sage in humanoid or energetic bodies that are far beyond just a physical earth body.  There are countless accounts of others with similar experience. For instance the historic Buddha inter-acting per well recognized sutra with a god so as to take on being a teacher and not just disappear into the forest.  Btw, no need to believe me  find out for yourself which is the only sure proof you will ever get.

Agreed. No second hand experiences will prove the existence of Goddesses or Guardians or whatever. I am happy to hear that you have had such experiences. Personally, I have not. I do not discount your experiences but I also do not believe them cause I have not had those experiences. Forgive me my ignorance. Whether countless others have had those experiences or not doesn't change my world or beliefs. Just like those that claim to have been enlightened. I do not believe. But, I do not discount their experience just because I have not had those experiences.

 

When I read about the Buddha and his words of wisdom, I take everything with a large grain of salt. I do not believe everything instantly. Instead I take his words and set them aside until I learn more. Ultimate truth, Buddha nature is not something one can just say yes I believe. It does no good. And It changes nothing. Then even having had such experiences; that nothing changes. Before enlightenment chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment chop wood and carry water. And so I believe even having first hand experiences with Goddesses, Guardians or whatever will in the end change nothing but POV.

[old3bob]

 

I'd say part of what changes is that one knows they are not just an ego/construct, and that such a "program" of themselves is no longer all there is or lording it over on them,  for it has been cracked open and revealed for what it is!   I'd say that all of the various practices are to keep those cracks open and make them more open until the "program" shell can longer come back and take over. (so to speak, and then only serve per dharmas since then it too has changed yet some amount of personality is still retained/needed to interact with the world)  

 

A question to consider is who or what is chopping wood and carrying water before and after?

Edited Thursday at 03:45 PM by old3bob

[Lairg]

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

part of what changes is that one knows they are not just an ego/construct,

 

This is an important stage.   Most humans believe but do not know.