If there is no self then how does rebirth work?

[Tommy]

13 hours ago, Neirong said:

 

It does not follow you; it exists on the planet itself. This is a normal balancing system. Every action has consequences. The world does not end when you die, so if you were not able to account for your actions in a previous life, you will account for them in the next one. It is also a learning experience.

...
 

Some people actually think that karma does not exist, and they go crazy in their current life, accumulating massive debt. That debt will be paid by hundreds of their future incarnations and may even lead to the recycling or permanent destruction of their soul if they fail to learn the lesson.

It does not follow? It exist on the planet? Not being able to account for your actions and intent, one will account for them in the next one? Doesn't that mean it follows the person or soul or energy? It is a big planet. When the Dalai Lama dies and get reborn, the monks go around searching for his reincarnation. If they do not follow then they would not find him. So, if it does not follow then how does it find the person who needs to be accountable for previous actions and intent? Every action has consequences then after death how does it present itself if it does not follow?

 

Okay, I will let it go and accept your words. It does not follow. It exist on the planet. It would be terrible for someone else to have to account for another's actions?

Edited Sunday at 12:59 AM by Tommy

[Tommy]

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

I don’t believe there is necessarily one “important lesson to be learned.” Just as there are infinite lives, there are infinite possible lessons to be learned. If there is one very important lesson it may be simply to take a step back from identifying too closely with the endless questions and answers that arise in the mind and the one who is asking and answering; to simply observe that process with an open mind and open heart and see what it has to tell you.

 

Yes, the realization of the illusory nature of our experience of being an independent and separate self is profoundly liberating. Does it liberate one from rebirth? I can’t say for sure because I haven’t died yet. I can say that it does liberate me from a great deal of stress and suffering in my day to day experience of this life.

 

How does consciousness allow for that? By cultivating familiarity with, and trust in, radical openness to life and experience in each and every moment. Holding on to a fixed set of expectations and assumptions, and resistance to change, are primary causes of stress and discomfort. Trusting that each and every situation I find myself in can be met with the openness, warmth, and presence of my practice overcomes that, once I have enough experience and confidence to genuinely validate that trust. It’s a bit like holding tightly to something, thinking that you are in deep water and unable to swim; then letting go and finding the water is shallow or that you are so bouyant that the depth of the water is irrelevant. You develop trust and confidence in being open to whatever circumstances are present in this very moment, knowing the openness, clarity, and spaciousness of your practice, of your very being, which is the more fundamental nature of “self,” can accommodate anything, far more than that limited, fragile sense of a self trapped within a bag of skin with a fixed and finite set of ideas.

 

 

This is a good illustration of the power of not identifying with the illusory self. If I hold tightly to certain beliefs or traditions, if I identify with them, words could feel insulting or provocative. This is why politics and religion cause such intense reactivity, because we identify with them at a deep level, we allow them to define our core values, our very sense of self. If I am fully open to your words, without feeling the need to grasp at or protect my own beliefs, my spiritual identity if you will, then who is there to take offense? I can be open to being right, to being wrong, to believing this or believing that, or best of all IME, to releasing any sense of a need to believe. Why is there a need to grasp at a belief when I can be open and present to this very moment, as it is? A good metaphor for this is being as the sky, open and clear. Clouds and even powerful storms can arise in the sky, but they simply pass through, leaving the sky open and clear, as before. The sky is indestructible because it is empty.

Thank you for your reply. That seems to be very insightful about not identifying with thoughts. Being open like the sky. Thanks.

[kakapo]

On 3/6/2025 at 10:03 PM, Tommy said:

Yeah, this was probably asked before. But, I got to ask, ...

 

One of the basic teachings of Buddha is the concept of no self. If there is no self then how does rebirth work? If there is no soul to be reborn into another life then what does go on? Karma??

 

What is the important lesson to be learned by going thru all the births, deaths and rebirths? Does a true realization of no self grant freedom from suffering, a liberation from rebirth? How does the realized mental state of consciousness allow for that?

 

Please note: Due to reactions I have received recently, I have to say that I am not looking for a fight. Not trying to insult anyone. Just true curiosity. Do not take offense for my words. If you have an opinion then please respond.

 

Imagine that a man from the USA was traveling to France.  

 

He was mugged and they stole his ID and Passport, and pushed him off a bridge. 

 

He fell a great distance and hit his head, resulting in a traumatic brain injury. 

 

He was in a coma for many years, and when he awoke, he could not remember anything or even speak.

 

He had to learn the language (French), and learn everything again as a child would. 

 

Years later he has no memory of having lived in the USA, and only knows of his new life in France.

 

There is no self in the sense that ego, identity, and memory do not usually survive between lifetimes (unless specific criteria are met)

[old3bob]

 

we can walk around repeating to ourselves and everyone else no self, no self, no self, illusion, illusion,  etc. , or we could walk around repeating to ourselves and everyone else Self, Self, Self, reality reality... etc. but doing either on auto-pilot is more or less problematic although if either is used correctly they can help answer the questions and quandary of who, why, what and how are we.  Btw. where in hell does real illusion or real reality begin and end?  For if non-duality truly is then I'd say there is no real dichotomy except per our limited perception.  (and again per our limited perception)

 

the universe of roaring silence can not ignore the call of Sincerity, and by its own law must answer....good fortune to you.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 12:21 PM by old3bob

[Tommy]

2 hours ago, kakapo said:

 

Imagine that a man from the USA was traveling to France.  

 

He was mugged and they stole his ID and Passport, and pushed him off a bridge. 

 

He fell a great distance and hit his head, resulting in a traumatic brain injury. 

 

He was in a coma for many years, and when he awoke, he could not remember anything or even speak.

 

He had to learn the language (French), and learn everything again as a child would. 

 

Years later he has no memory of having lived in the USA, and only knows of his new life in France.

 

There is no self in the sense that ego, identity, and memory do not usually survive between lifetimes (unless specific criteria are met)

Thank you for the reply.

In your analogy about rebirth, you still have the physical person going from one life to the next. If a person dies there is no physical body. When a baby is born, there are no memories of a previous life (for the majority of people). There does not seem to be any link between lives. When talking about Buddha and the idea of rebirth,  if there is no self or soul then what goes from one life to the next in order to use the word rebirth? 

 

From one birth to the next, identity does not seem to move forward. There does not seem to be memories of previous lifetimes. But, Karma seems to be there to apply their accountability for past actions and intent. What if anything follows from one lifetime to the next?

 

In some records about the Buddha, it is said that he spoke more about energy moving from one birth to the next birth. Maybe it could be Karmic energy? Since those who are supposedly liberated do not need to go thru rebirth, maybe they do not have any more Karmic energy? So, no Karmic energy means they are not subject to rebirth?? Hmm, maybe thinking about this stuff does not provide a path to liberation and only causes more entanglement with life, Karma?? It is strange the stuff that goes thru one's mind while sitting in quiet silence.

[Tommy]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

we can walk around repeating to ourselves and everyone else no self, no self, no self, illusion, illusion,  etc. , or we could walk around repeating to ourselves and everyone else Self, Self, Self, reality reality... etc. but doing either on auto-pilot is more or less problematic although if either is used correctly they can help answer the questions and quandary of who, why, what and how are we.  Btw. where in hell does real illusion or real reality begin and end?  For if non-duality truly is then I'd say there is no real dichotomy except per our limited perception.  (and again per our limited perception)

 

the universe of roaring silence can not ignore the call of Sincerity, and by its own law must answer....good fortune to you.

 

 

Yes, limited perception. If one's view is small then one's idea of the world is small. For those who have found liberation, this life might seem like an illusion. I do not know. I do know that the view from atop a mountain is grand and the view when face is in the grass is less grand. They bring different feelings. (As per our limited perception)

[Neirong]

20 hours ago, Tommy said:

t does not follow? It exist on the planet?

 

People often imagine the world as having human qualities, including the pettiness of an ego that seeks to punish someone. In reality, however, the world operates more according to global laws of physics and a self-balancing system. For example, if you hit a wall with your arm, the wall resists, and your hand will likely break or get hurt. Over time, you would learn not to hit walls with your arm, avoiding unnecessary harm.
 

The complexity increases with dimensions. If you spit upward, gravity will bring the spit back down toward you. When it comes to energies, thoughts, and mental activities, the system becomes even more intricate, as humans live within a self-created bubble of perception.

 

20 hours ago, Tommy said:

When the Dalai Lama dies and get reborn, the monks go around searching for his reincarnation.

They find a new person and present him as a reincarnation of Dalai Lama, to uphold tradition or prestige. It has no real value or meaning outside of their tradition.
 

16 minutes ago, Tommy said:

soul then what goes from one life to the next in order to use the word rebirth

 

Soul gets pulled down (hooked) from spiritual world during rebirth.
 

17 minutes ago, Tommy said:

But, Karma seems to be there to apply their accountability for past actions and intent. What if anything follows from one lifetime to the next?

 

Karma is not a negative thing, an ability to carry over something is vastly positive. That will allow someone to make meaningful progress.

Doing right steps and practices in this incarnation you will be able to influence yourself in the future lives.

[kakapo]

2 hours ago, Tommy said:

Thank you for the reply.

In your analogy about rebirth, you still have the physical person going from one life to the next. If a person dies there is no physical body. When a baby is born, there are no memories of a previous life (for the majority of people). There does not seem to be any link between lives. When talking about Buddha and the idea of rebirth,  if there is no self or soul then what goes from one life to the next in order to use the word rebirth? 

 

From one birth to the next, identity does not seem to move forward. There does not seem to be memories of previous lifetimes. But, Karma seems to be there to apply their accountability for past actions and intent. What if anything follows from one lifetime to the next?

 

In some records about the Buddha, it is said that he spoke more about energy moving from one birth to the next birth. Maybe it could be Karmic energy? Since those who are supposedly liberated do not need to go thru rebirth, maybe they do not have any more Karmic energy? So, no Karmic energy means they are not subject to rebirth?? Hmm, maybe thinking about this stuff does not provide a path to liberation and only causes more entanglement with life, Karma?? It is strange the stuff that goes thru one's mind while sitting in quiet silence.

 

The observer continues from one lifetime to the next, the ego, the identity, the memory was the subject of observation.  Those are left behind and a new round of observation begins, new memories are formed, a new ego and identity is established.  This is the case for most people.  Some groups of people viewed this as a problem, and some practices and lineages were created to address this perceived problem.

 

Also please be careful with who's advice you listen to in this thread.

 

I see you interacting with a person here who thinks they can shoot eye lasers, fly faster than the speed of light, give themselves brain power injections, open portals to other universes, kill ancient Naga demons, and has a harem of anime elf girls.

 

No I am actually serious, they claimed this publicly here on the forum.

 

Please realize that some people here are either role playing or delusional or some combination thereof, and please be careful of who's opinion's you listen to.

[Tommy]

1 hour ago, Neirong said:

People often imagine the world as having human qualities, including the pettiness of an ego that seeks to punish someone. In reality, however, the world operates more according to global laws of physics and a self-balancing system. For example, if you hit a wall with your arm, the wall resists, and your hand will likely break or get hurt. Over time, you would learn not to hit walls with your arm, avoiding unnecessary harm.
 

The complexity increases with dimensions. If you spit upward, gravity will bring the spit back down toward you. When it comes to energies, thoughts, and mental activities, the system becomes even more intricate, as humans live within a self-created bubble of perception.

 

soul gets pulled down (hooked) from spiritual world during rebirth.
 

Karma is not a negative thing, an ability to carry over something is vastly positive. That will allow someone to make meaningful progress.

Doing right steps and practices in this incarnation you will be able to influence yourself in the future lives.

Sorry, you have lost me in your explanations.

 

If you hit your arm against the wall. Then your hand would get hurt or you would be practicing kung fu and your hand would get harder. Guess what your intent would be and not just the action??

 

Due to increase in of complexity with dimensions, if you spit upward then it would travel in an arc. It would come back down but not necessarily bring it back down at you. If your actions and intent is to have it come back down at you then that would indeed be silly.

 

Soul gets pulled down from spiritual world. Yes,  the system becomes even more intricate, as humans live within a self-created bubble of perception. Did not know there was a spiritual world??

[Neirong]

2 hours ago, Tommy said:

Did not know there was a spiritual world??

This is very basic/fundamental esoteric knowledge. There are dozens of worlds beyond the one you know. People learn this in authentic schools.

@kakapo never attended a school nor had a qualified teacher, which is why he reacts that way when any esoteric term, such as astral travel, is mentioned.

 

3 hours ago, Tommy said:

if you spit upward then it would travel in an arc

 

This was just a simple example. It’s not about the spit; it’s about how people create problems for themselves.

You will always be able to find some ignorant people fighting windmills or imaginary stuff, or hitting their head into the wall repeatedly.
Instead of dealing with real problems and advancing, they would be stuck in a loop.
 

3 hours ago, Tommy said:

If you hit your arm against the wall. Then your hand would get hurt or you would be practicing kung fu and your hand would get harder. Guess what your intent would be and not just the action?

 

There is a significant difference or gap between imaginary concepts and the natural laws of the universe.
 

When two objects collide, the weaker one gets damaged. This is also why, when people attack someone who is spiritually accomplished, they end up broken, with holes in their energy field, and accumulate massive negative karma for years to come.
(These are the consequences of their actions.)
 

It is very hard, if not impossible, to advance in cultivation and make spiritual progress if there are issues with mental health, the energy field, or physical health.
 

Principles of ethical conduct are usually taught as part of the schooling process. For example, when you evolve your mental fields, your thoughts will start to affect reality, and you will have to bear responsibility for them as much as for your actions.

[Neirong]

Karma, apart from being a balancing mechanism, also serves as a lesson system. Until you clear your 'lesson,' you will not be able to move further; it will hold you back in your development.

Rebirth is necessary because no one can truly clear the entire system curriculum in a single lifetime. If you are properly cultivating in each of your incarnations, you will make meaningful progress, each subsequent incarnation will likely surpass the previous one and go further.

[kakapo]

2 hours ago, Neirong said:

This is very basic/fundamental esoteric knowledge. There are dozens of worlds beyond the one you know. People learn this in authentic schools.

@kakapo never attended a school nor had a qualified teacher, which is why he reacts that way when any esoteric term, such as astral travel, is mentioned.

 

 

This was just a simple example. It’s not about the spit; it’s about how people create problems for themselves.

You will always be able to find some ignorant people fighting windmills or imaginary stuff, or hitting their head into the wall repeatedly.
Instead of dealing with real problems and advancing, they would be stuck in a loop.
 

 

There is a significant difference or gap between imaginary concepts and the natural laws of the universe.
 

When two objects collide, the weaker one gets damaged. This is also why, when people attack someone who is spiritually accomplished, they end up broken, with holes in their energy field, and accumulate massive negative karma for years to come.
(These are the consequences of their actions.)
 

It is very hard, if not impossible, to advance in cultivation and make spiritual progress if there are issues with mental health, the energy field, or physical health.
 

Principles of ethical conduct are usually taught as part of the schooling process. For example, when you evolve your mental fields, your thoughts will start to affect reality, and you will have to bear responsibility for them as much as for your actions.

 

@kakapo never attended a school nor had a qualified teacher, which is why he reacts that way when any esoteric term, such as astral travel, is mentioned.

 

Please don't assume. You know what happens when you assume.  I am very grateful to my school and teachers.

 

 

[Tommy]

@Neirong 

Thanks for the reply. When two objects collide, the weaker one can bend and not break then it can send back the energy given to it by the first object thus sending back the first stronger object back to where it came from. Stronger doesn't always mean better.  Sometimes there are more possibilities than are dreamt of in your world. I have found that life isn't as simple as one believes it to be. Hope your journey is a fruitful one.

Edited yesterday at 12:37 AM by Tommy

[Tommy]

It seems to be a paradox. That there is no self as we believe us to be and yet there is rebirth. What if anything goes from one life to the next life? Once explained to me as there are two types of truth. One conventional truth as most people see and the higher level of truth which is ultimate truth.

 

Conventional truth is a collection of things. We have names and identity and personal history. This is necessary for daily life to proceed. But, ultimate truth supposedly goes deeper. The solid entities we see are nothing but interconnected processes. There is no solid unchanging center or core that we can call ourselves. If we look at a car then we see that there is not one piece that is the car. The car is a collection of parts designed to go together to be called a car. And so, we are a collection of parts, aggregates. No one thing to say that is me.

 

What we call the "I" or "ME" is just a collection of physical processes that constantly change as time passes. Buddha called this the five skandhas. So, it does not mean that we do not exist but rather that we do not exist as the way we believe ourselves to exist. We exist as something that arises from something else. There is nothing there that is independent. It is always a part of something else. An effect which came from a cause.

 

So if there is no self or soul then what is reborn? It seems that it is not a soul or self that is reborn but a pattern or Karmic force. Much like the pattern or design of a car. We can replace every part in the car. Can we still call it a car? In the conventional way, we can say it is the same car. But, in another way, the car is not the same. 

 

I still do not understand the explanation given to me. But, it seems that all things are connected. Our brains exist inside a field of awareness not that our brains have awareness. Throws hands up and shakes head. I guess it is time to move on and do more practice.

[Lairg]

19 minutes ago, Tommy said:

So if there is no self or soul then what is reborn?

 

There is a "self "  (intelligent entity committed to the human incarnation) upon each plane of Existence that is active in the  incarnation of that particular human 

 

In addition there are greater and lesser (beneficial and adverse) entities that like to operate/anchor through the entities that are natural intelligences within the human incarnation

 

Thus in my view the term "self" needs detailed definition 

 

In other terms:  each chakra should have its own spirit that contributes to the human wholeness.

 

Not all human incarnations are complete

 

 

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 03:33 AM by Lairg

[Lairg]

20 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Our brains exist inside a field of awareness not that our brains have awareness

 

The brain permits consciousness by operating as the interface between spirit and matter.

 

Awareness is much broader and deeper and does not require a brain

 

 

[Keith108]

Tommy wrote:

 

Quote

I guess it is time to move on and do more practice.

 

It's the only answer. Anatta (non self) can't be puzzled out, it has to be experienced. Buddhism is a practical science, applicable to your daily life. 

 

Rebirth is like that. Since lifetime to lifetime rebirth can only be experienced by dying, it's preferable to consider moment to moment rebirth, which can be experienced anytime. A good study of dependent origination will give one the tools support that experience.

 

Please recognize that most of the discussion in this thread, while interesting, has little to do with Dharma as the Buddha taught, even though the question was posted in the Buddhist Discussion forum. That's to be expected, as most of the folks who post regularly here are not Buddhists. This isn't meant to be a criticism, just something worth pointing out. 

 

_/|\_

[old3bob]

On 3/9/2025 at 6:35 AM, Tommy said:

Yes, limited perception. If one's view is small then one's idea of the world is small. For those who have found liberation, this life might seem like an illusion. I do not know. I do know that the view from atop a mountain is grand and the view when face is in the grass is less grand. They bring different feelings. (As per our limited perception)

 

ok, and take this as you will,  "Ultimately, Nirvana truly realized is Samsara properly understood".   Nagarjuna

[Tommy]

13 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

ok, and take this as you will,  "Ultimately, Nirvana truly realized is Samsara properly understood".   Nagarjuna

I take it as if it helps you along your journey then that is great. If though it prevent you from continuing on your spiritual journey then it is nothing but a curse.

[Tommy]

4 hours ago, Keith108 said:

Please recognize that most of the discussion in this thread, while interesting, has little to do with Dharma as the Buddha taught, even though the question was posted in the Buddhist Discussion forum. That's to be expected, as most of the folks who post regularly here are not Buddhists. This isn't meant to be a criticism, just something worth pointing out. 

 

_/|\_

Yes, I do believe that Buddha would have little to do with this discussion since it does not help one to progress along the path to Nirvana. However, as people, humans, we do have an innate curiosity to wonder and ask questions. I am grateful to all who took time to answer even if I did not understand their statements. Thank you all.

 

Some even have a do as I say not as I do understanding. In other words they know better yet they do not follow their own words. While what they say is sound, it lacks the impact of truth as if it came from a real teacher. Not a criticism but an observation. Please no offense is intended. Just that there are so many people who regurgitate what they have heard before. They make themselves sound so wise. I am humbled.

 

I believe, whether Buddhist or not, it is okay to have a voice and to participate in the conversation. After all, it is about learning. And from that learning, growth. Hopefully spiritual growth.

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

Yes, I do believe that Buddha would have little to do with this discussion since it does not help one to progress along the path to Nirvana. However, as people, humans, we do have an innate curiosity to wonder and ask questions. I am grateful to all who took time to answer even if I did not understand their statements. Thank you all.

 

Some even have a do as I say not as I do understanding. In other words they know better yet they do not follow their own words. While what they say is sound, it lacks the impact of truth as if it came from a real teacher. Not a criticism but an observation. Please no offense is intended. Just that there are so many people who regurgitate what they have heard before. They make themselves sound so wise. I am humbled.

 

I believe, whether Buddhist or not, it is okay to have a voice and to participate in the conversation. After all, it is about learning. And from that learning, growth. Hopefully spiritual growth.

 

interesting in that historic Buddha didn't see Buddhism as an ism yet what has transpired over 2500 years....?

[Tommy]

5 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

interesting in that historic Buddha didn't see Buddhism as an ism yet what has transpired over 2500 years....?

That is an interesting inquiry. Why not start your own thread?

[Keith108]

22 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

interesting in that historic Buddha didn't see Buddhism as an ism yet what has transpired over 2500 years....?

As with the historic Jesus, the historic Mohammed, etc., etc. 

 

To Tommy's reply, I agree completely, and hopefully that came across in my post. I certainly don't want to set myself as some kind of guardian of Buddhism. It's good to have different viewpoints.

 

But, it's also good to understand what Buddha dharma is and is not. Astral planes, supreme selves, souls, watchers, spiritual worlds, etc. are categorically not that. The Buddha taught dukkha, and the end of dukkha. Given the forum category we are discussing this in, I think it's ok to point that out.

 

Of course, it's also ok to point out that this is just my idea and opinion.