If there is no self then how does rebirth work?

[Tommy]

Yeah, this was probably asked before. But, I got to ask, ...

 

One of the basic teachings of Buddha is the concept of no self. If there is no self then how does rebirth work? If there is no soul to be reborn into another life then what does go on? Karma??

 

What is the important lesson to be learned by going thru all the births, deaths and rebirths? Does a true realization of no self grant freedom from suffering, a liberation from rebirth? How does the realized mental state of consciousness allow for that?

 

Please note: Due to reactions I have received recently, I have to say that I am not looking for a fight. Not trying to insult anyone. Just true curiosity. Do not take offense for my words. If you have an opinion then please respond.

[Lairg]

17 minutes ago, Tommy said:

One of the basic teachings of Buddha is the concept of no self. If there is no self then how does rebirth work? 

 

The key word seems to me to be "basic".

 

When teaching the masses only basic messages are suitable.  

 

Those achieving first stage enlightenment discover that the cosmos is much more organic than taught - and that humans contribute as a natural part of their progress

 

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

4 hours ago, Tommy said:

Yeah, this was probably asked before. But, I got to ask, ...

 

One of the basic teachings of Buddha is the concept of no self. If there is no self then how does rebirth work? If there is no soul to be reborn into another life then what does go on? Karma??

 

What is the important lesson to be learned by going thru all the births, deaths and rebirths? Does a true realization of no self grant freedom from suffering, a liberation from rebirth? How does the realized mental state of consciousness allow for that?

 

Please note: Due to reactions I have received recently, I have to say that I am not looking for a fight. Not trying to insult anyone. Just true curiosity. Do not take offense for my words. If you have an opinion then please respond.

No self as in this current ego that has been constructed in this physical lifetime. The soul is eternal and will be reborn again, but not this current personality with your name.

[old3bob]

9 hours ago, Tommy said:

Yeah, this was probably asked before. But, I got to ask, ...

 

One of the basic teachings of Buddha is the concept of no self. If there is no self then how does rebirth work? If there is no soul to be reborn into another life then what does go on? Karma??

 

What is the important lesson to be learned by going thru all the births, deaths and rebirths? Does a true realization of no self grant freedom from suffering, a liberation from rebirth? How does the realized mental state of consciousness allow for that?

 

Please note: Due to reactions I have received recently, I have to say that I am not looking for a fight. Not trying to insult anyone. Just true curiosity. Do not take offense for my words. If you have an opinion then please respond.

 

My take is that there is the same atom or Atman of the Supreme Being/Self deep in the heart of hearts of all beings, this imo is even pointed towards in certain Buddhist sutra's.   Although what can be like a  monkey wrench of confusion are the saying of, "no self" and all sorts of negation sayings -- which in a nutshell mean to me the non-attachment to or non-identification with a temporary self (with small  s ) that is not the Supreme Being but a limited ego that in a sense is veiling It.  One also needs to be careful to not end up trying to nail down the Supreme Being or Self with words or thoughts,  which I think is a major part of what the Historic Buddha was trying to get at.  Having said that (and if accepted as  pointers?) we also come to the term "soul" with its many variations on teachings, many which do not agree, so we can say it comes down to the fact that one has to find out for themselves.

 

Speaking of negation the, "four-fold negation" goes though the quandary's of intellectual limits and thus leaves one to then go on from there...

 

Edited Friday at 12:45 PM by old3bob

[Tommy]

9 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

The key word seems to me to be "basic".

 

When teaching the masses only basic messages are suitable.  

 

Those achieving first stage enlightenment discover that the cosmos is much more organic than taught - and that humans contribute as a natural part of their progress

 

 

Thank you for your reply.

Sorry, I disagree.

So, because teaching the masses, only basic messages are suitable?

Does that mean the masses do not deserve the whole truth? Should we hide the true message of Buddha?

Sorry, it seems to be without compassion and wisdom.

The truth and the path to liberation should be available to all.

Why differentiate between the masses and individual students?

Or maybe I am misunderstanding your meaning??

 

 

4 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

No self as in this current ego that has been constructed in this physical lifetime. The soul is eternal and will be reborn again, but not this current personality with your name.

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, no self as constructed in the present physical lifetime. Buddha did teach that there is no self or soul that goes from one incarnation to the next. The essence? or energy? of a person going from one birth to the next. Karma?, like energy, going from one lifetime to the next. I could be wrong.

 

I read somewhere (don't remember where, sorry) that  life is like the ocean. When the water splashes, the spray of the drops fly through the air. Soars. Each on their own journey .. back home. Nothing is lost. And the cycle repeats.

 

Googled, ...

Buddhism, unlike other religions, does not believe in a creator God or an eternal or everlasting soul. Anatta - Buddhism teaches that there is no permanent self or soul. Because there is no unchanging permanent essence or soul, Buddhists sometimes talk about energy being reborn, rather than souls.

 

AI tends to be more literal about things and sometimes gives different answer when asked at different times.

So, must be taken with a bit of salt. Bitter things are usually tough to swallow.

 

I always thought that Buddhism does not require one to believe in God. Not that there is no God. One can believe in what they wish to. Just that the practice and experience is important. To follow the Dharma. This I believe is why Buddhism was so easily adopted by different countries and cultures. I could be wrong.

 

Anyway, I do believe you are right ...  just that the wording may need more clarity. As the self is often thought of as the soul??

 

 

Edited Friday at 12:53 PM by Tommy

[Tommy]

35 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

My take is that there is the same atom or Atman of the Supreme Being/Self deep in the heart of hearts of all beings, this imo is even pointed towards in certain Buddhist sutra's.   Although what can be like a  monkey wrench of confusion are the saying of, "no self" and all sorts of negation sayings -- which in a nutshell mean to me the non-attachment to or non-identification with a temporary self (with small  s ) that is not the Supreme Being but a limited ego that in a sense is veiling It.  One also needs to be careful to not end up trying to nail down the Supreme Being or Self with words or thoughts,  which I think is a major part of what the Historic Buddha was trying to get at.

 

Speaking of negation the, "four-fold negation" goes though the quandary's of intellectual limits and thus leaves one to then go on from there...

 

Thanks for the reply.

"four fold negation"?? Sorry, I got lost when I had to do truth tables for math class in college.

Supreme Being? Thought that was God. That God was the supreme being?

 

Well, thanks for introducing me to more ideas. However, I am a simple person that likes simple explanations. I like physics class but when they go from a simple model of atoms to explaining that those protons and neutrons are made up of Quarks and the electron is also like a quark. It becomes a bit much to carry around. Quantum mechanics makes no intuitive sense.

 

So, harder to understand. Guess experience would provide a better understanding?? IDK.

[old3bob]

 

Btw the Buddha is recorded in well recognized sutras as having had conversations with and awareness of gods/devas, so denial of that does not fly per those sutras....although the meanings of all that is a further matter.

 

[Tommy]

 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

Thanks for the reply.

"four fold negation"?? Sorry, I got lost when I had to do truth tables for math class in college.

Supreme Being? Thought that was God. That God was the supreme being?

 

Well, thanks for introducing me to more ideas. However, I am a simple person that likes simple explanations. I like physics class but when they go from a simple model of atoms to explaining that those protons and neutrons are made up of Quarks and the electron is also like a quark. It becomes a bit much to carry around. Quantum mechanics makes no intuitive sense.

 

So, harder to understand. Guess experience would provide a better understanding?? IDK.

 

God or Supreme Being are words and so is Nirvana and all the rest...and have a purpose up to a point.

 

The Self is so profoundly simple that thinking mind can not know it since thinking mind can not and does contain It.

 

btw, I meant the four-fold negation per Nagarjuna, right?

 

 

 

Edited Friday at 02:55 PM by old3bob

[Tommy]

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

Btw the Buddha is recorded in well recognized sutras as having had conversations with and awareness of gods/devas, so denial of that does not fly per those sutras....although the meanings of all that is a further matter.

 

The argument that Buddha had discussions about God(s) is not in contention. For instance, with one inquirer asking if there is a God. Buddha knowing the inquirer would stop his spiritual journey if the answer was there is no God. So, He told the inquirer that there is a God so the person would continue his journey. And as there was also a person who asked the same question, Buddha would answer according to the needs of the person. The answer was to reply with compassion and wisdom which would help the person along their spiritual journey. It wasn't necessary to get hung up on the question of whether God exist or not.

 

As I said, Googled that quote. It was from AI which can change their answer to whatever time you ask the question. Or whenever there is more information. Personally, what matters to me is that a person seeking the way to Nirvana follows the Dharma in practice.

 

The Buddha warned of four types of people.

1. The person who is all take. Will give only when expecting a greater return. 

2. The person of empty words. They have grand words but are really full of empty promises. No actions.

3. The person full of flattery. The smile that conceals a dagger. They take your secrets and use them against you.

3. The person goes along with your failings. They say it is alright to fail. To skip practice. Saying you deserve a break.

 

These people will break one away from following the Dharma.

[old3bob]

 

well,  there is also the problematic choice of whether to be a householder with that related dharma or a monk/nun with that related dharma which arises at some point...(besides all the rest of  dharma) since one can't really do both well at the same time.  A lot of the quotes/teachings  here are coming more from the renunciate people but how many of us westerners are really or seriously going to go take renunciate route, (at least in earlier life?) probably only a few.  Besides it takes a good support system for that to be done in an often fast paced modern world.  (including the world of 2500 hundred years ago which the historic Buddha renounced)

Edited Friday at 11:11 PM by old3bob

[Keith108]

20 hours ago, Tommy said:

Yeah, this was probably asked before. But, I got to ask, ...

 

One of the basic teachings of Buddha is the concept of no self. If there is no self then how does rebirth work? If there is no soul to be reborn into another life then what does go on? Karma??

 

What is the important lesson to be learned by going thru all the births, deaths and rebirths? Does a true realization of no self grant freedom from suffering, a liberation from rebirth? How does the realized mental state of consciousness allow for that?

 

Please note: Due to reactions I have received recently, I have to say that I am not looking for a fight. Not trying to insult anyone. Just true curiosity. Do not take offense for my words. If you have an opinion then please respond.

 

I haven't read through all the replies, so forgive me if I am repeating something. 

 

There are two types of "rebirth", lifetime to lifetime, and moment to moment. These are two different takes on dependent origination. 

 

Lifetime to lifetime is a moral teaching. Be a good doobie in this life, and you get a good rebirth in the next. The more you "Do good, Avoid evil, and Purify the mind" (The Three Grave Precepts), the closer you come to Buddhahood. Maybe after many lifetimes, you will attain Annutara Samyak Sambodhi, and be release from samsara (endless rounds of rebirth.

 

Lifetime to lifetime rebirth can only conjectured about. It's a philosophy.

 

Moment to moment rebirth is much more useful, because we can empirically see it happening in our lives, and do something about it.

 

Google Buddhadasa Bhikkhu and Dependent Origination for more information on this.

 

It also helps me to refer to anatta as "not self", instead of "no-self". "No self" and "self" are erroneous terms. What we experience is not experienced by a self, but something is experiencing it. What is it?

 

All of this is just my opinion, ymmv.

 

_/|\_

Keith

[Neirong]

21 hours ago, Tommy said:

What is the important lesson to be learned by going thru all the births, deaths and rebirths? Does a true realization of no self grant freedom from suffering, a liberation from rebirth? How does the realized mental state of consciousness allow for that?

It is quite easy to explain in the context of today's reality. Buddha likely did not have such examples in his time.
 

When you load a role-playing game, create a character, and start playing, are you the character?
 

For most people, it is too difficult to grasp this distinction because their memories and abilities (skills) are confined to the character they control. Their memories start from childhood, they will end upon death. Many become so immersed in the game that they lose the connection between themselves as the player and the character they are controlling.
 

Think of it as leverage: when you are playing the game, it is easy to train your character because you see the benefits. Your stats improve, and you recognize the value of not wasting time. However, when you are the character, the situation changes. Look around, and you’ll see that the vast majority of people are not engaged in cultivation or self-development. Instead, they are entirely lost in various egregores, ideas, and functions, becoming puppets or slaves to a particular paradigm. 
 

You could also call it a corruption that comes from living in a certain environment. The environment affects people who have a weak spirit. A weak spirit cannot regain awareness of itself and has no access to memories of past lives.
 

If your memories and experiences were not limited to this life and this body, you would be an entirely different person. That kind of power is necessary to make any meaningful progress on the cultivation path.

[Keith108]

Ok, I did read some of the responses. 

 

Do yourself a favor, hit this link, and read the book. It will answer your question. 
 

 

[Lairg]

Does parallel processing exist in nature?

 

How does that work in humans?

 

 

[old3bob]

 

The  "Eternal" or true meaning of the Self is another illusion to be negated per some Buddhists but imo here is a pointer from the historic Buddha himself:

 

"There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.  Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding"

 

(thus we could say beyond created categories, which is also a pointer used for Brahman)

Edited Saturday at 02:21 AM by old3bob

[Tommy]

4 hours ago, Keith108 said:

There are two types of "rebirth", lifetime to lifetime, and moment to moment. These are two different takes on dependent origination. 

 

Lifetime to lifetime is a moral teaching. Be a good doobie in this life, and you get a good rebirth in the next. The more you "Do good, Avoid evil, and Purify the mind" (The Three Grave Precepts), the closer you come to Buddhahood. Maybe after many lifetimes, you will attain Annutara Samyak Sambodhi, and be release from samsara (endless rounds of rebirth.

 

Lifetime to lifetime rebirth can only conjectured about. It's a philosophy.

 

Moment to moment rebirth is much more useful, because we can empirically see it happening in our lives, and do something about it.

 

Google Buddhadasa Bhikkhu and Dependent Origination for more information on this.

 

It also helps me to refer to anatta as "not self", instead of "no-self". "No self" and "self" are erroneous terms. What we experience is not experienced by a self, but something is experiencing it. What is it?

 

All of this is just my opinion, ymmv.

 

_/|\_

Keith

Thanks for your reply.

Your post goes straight for the heart of the topic. And while I do not know much about dependent origination, I do know that nothing arises by itself. It is all a part of something else. However, Quantum physics drives me nuts. Out of nothingness of the emptiness of space, a pair of particles (one one positron and the other electron) can appear inside of an atom. But, because the two are so close that they will annihilate each other as if they never existed. And the time that they did exist is so short that it can not be measured. The very fabric of the universe allows for strange things to happen. One very strange phenomena is intelligent life?? Well, lets call it intelligent for now. I think it is true that lifetime to lifetime or rebirth is more of a philosophy since there doesn't seem to be a way to connect one lifetime to the next. That is for me or as far as I can see. Could be different as some people have claimed to lived a previous life. Too many contradictions?? Now, I am really confused.

 

 

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

well,  there is also the problematic choice of whether to be a householder with that related dharma or a monk/nun with that related dharma which arises at some point...(besides all the rest of  dharma) since one can't really do both well at the same time. 

I believe each of us makes a choice. 

 

2 hours ago, Neirong said:

If your memories and experiences were not limited to this life and this body, you would be an entirely different person. That kind of power is necessary to make any meaningful progress on the cultivation path.

Thanks for your reply. Yes, without those memories then we are entirely different from previous incarnations. And yet, Karma follows us from one birth to the next?? Where is the sense in that?

 

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

Does parallel processing exist in nature?

 

How does that work in humans?

 

 

Two different things can happen at the same time but it doesn't mean it is parallel processing. But, it also doesn't mean it is not. Can not determine without more information. Have no idea how that would work in humans.

[stirling]

The Buddha does not mention reincarnation in the original Pali suttas. There is a reason for that. This moment is the only REAL moment. The past and future only exist as thoughts happening now, and have no absolute reality beyond that. The past arises as a story about who we are in this moment. It doesn't HAVE to limit or color our identification with the Eightfold Path in this moment. 

 

Truly, we are reborn every moment we open a door into a fresh room, remember a past suffering, or project a new one into an imagined future. We reincarnate as limited, living beings every time we create a limiting story about the empty awareness we truly are. Our stories about ourselves as victims, champions, firemen, presidents, criminals, or whatever are only that... stories.

 

No-self is the realization that all of our moment by moment reincarnations are just the adoption of a new belief system about the kind of person (with its commensurate limitations) we are. In the moment of the realization of no-self, and further realization of emptiness, we are free of ever believing in limited fictions about the supposed "self". We no longer identify with the collection of phenomena we identify as "self", and realize that what we are is the ENTIRE field of experiential phenomena happening in this moment. What we truly are, in Hindu terms, is the Self, empty of a center and encompassing all experience. This is what we have ALWAYS been, our inheritance and our legacy.

[Lairg]

42 minutes ago, Tommy said:

. Have no idea how that would work in humans.

 

Consider scientific discussion of a multiverse.  Consider also the concept of parallel timelines.

 

Does the spirit incarnating as a human have parallel processes? 

 

It seems that spirits are often not too happy with a single, often ineffective, human incarnation and thereby are allowed up to 12 parallel incarnations.  

 

The dreams where we meet people we know well, that look differently in the dream,  may be data/learning exchange occurring when out of the physical body

 

This view is contrary to what I was taught as a child, that humans are the center and high point of creation.  Life is not always what we are taught

 

 

[Tommy]

49 minutes ago, stirling said:

The Buddha does not mention reincarnation in the original Pali suttas. There is a reason for that. This moment is the only REAL moment. The past and future only exist as thoughts happening now, and have no absolute reality beyond that. The past arises as a story about who we are in this moment. It doesn't HAVE to limit or color our identification with the Eightfold Path in this moment. 

 

Truly, we are reborn every moment we open a door into a fresh room, remember a past suffering, or project a new one into an imagined future. We reincarnate as limited, living beings every time we create a limiting story about the empty awareness we truly are. Our stories about ourselves as victims, champions, firemen, presidents, criminals, or whatever are only that... stories.

 

No-self is the realization that all of our moment by moment reincarnations are just the adoption of a new belief system about the kind of person (with its commensurate limitations) we are. In the moment of the realization of no-self, and further realization of emptiness, we are free of ever believing in limited fictions about the supposed "self". We no longer identify with the collection of phenomena we identify as "self", and realize that what we are is the ENTIRE field of experiential phenomena happening in this moment. What we truly are, in Hindu terms, is the Self, empty of a center and encompassing all experience. This is what we have ALWAYS been, our inheritance and our legacy.

Thank you for your reply. You make it sound so simple and true. I really appreciate your post.

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

The Buddha does not mention reincarnation in the original Pali suttas. There is a reason for that. This moment is the only REAL moment. The past and future only exist as thoughts happening now, and have no absolute reality beyond that. The past arises as a story about who we are in this moment. It doesn't HAVE to limit or color our identification with the Eightfold Path in this moment. 

 

Truly, we are reborn every moment we open a door into a fresh room, remember a past suffering, or project a new one into an imagined future. We reincarnate as limited, living beings every time we create a limiting story about the empty awareness we truly are. Our stories about ourselves as victims, champions, firemen, presidents, criminals, or whatever are only that... stories.

 

No-self is the realization that all of our moment by moment reincarnations are just the adoption of a new belief system about the kind of person (with its commensurate limitations) we are. In the moment of the realization of no-self, and further realization of emptiness, we are free of ever believing in limited fictions about the supposed "self". We no longer identify with the collection of phenomena we identify as "self", and realize that what we are is the ENTIRE field of experiential phenomena happening in this moment. What we truly are, in Hindu terms, is the Self, empty of a center and encompassing all experience. This is what we have ALWAYS been, our inheritance and our legacy.

 

the saying of,  "what we are is the entire field of experiential phenomena happening in this moment" is not quite right for Hinduism in my understanding of its teachings, although an awareness of those categories could be had,; anyway Brahman is transcendent  (and I believe the Buddha said something similar with "beyond the beyond") of all phenomena which it is the source of but not  limited to various things, including all things. Also we could say the "center" or Self is so exceedingly fast that It is standing still every where at once beyond any measure of only being here or there in a particular time and space.

Edited Saturday at 06:22 AM by old3bob

[Neirong]

7 hours ago, Tommy said:

Thanks for your reply. Yes, without those memories then we are entirely different from previous incarnations. And yet, Karma follows us from one birth to the next?? Where is the sense in that?

 

It does not follow you; it exists on the planet itself. This is a normal balancing system. Every action has consequences. The world does not end when you die, so if you were not able to account for your actions in a previous life, you will account for them in the next one. It is also a learning experience.

 

If you did not feel pain when putting your hand into fire, you would not be careful enough to avoid burns and significant damage to your vessel. Similarly, if someone wants to progress spiritually and evolve, they must understand the laws and principles.

It is a safety mechanism as well. Nobody wants a deranged person taking on an important position.
 

Imagine a company that hires a worker. He does a good job for himself, becoming rich and famous, but in the process, he destroys half of the company. To the ego, it may seem that he did nothing wrong. He worked for his own benefit and did so with great success.
 

Some people actually think that karma does not exist, and they go crazy in their current life, accumulating massive debt. That debt will be paid by hundreds of their future incarnations and may even lead to the recycling or permanent destruction of their soul if they fail to learn the lesson.

[Keith108]

Quote

Thanks for your reply.

Your post goes straight for the heart of the topic. And while I do not know much about dependent origination, I do know that nothing arises by itself. It is all a part of something else. However, Quantum physics drives me nuts. Out of nothingness of the emptiness of space, a pair of particles (one one positron and the other electron) can appear inside of an atom. But, because the two are so close that they will annihilate each other as if they never existed. And the time that they did exist is so short that it can not be measured. The very fabric of the universe allows for strange things to happen. One very strange phenomena is intelligent life?? Well, lets call it intelligent for now. I think it is true that lifetime to lifetime or rebirth is more of a philosophy since there doesn't seem to be a way to connect one lifetime to the next. That is for me or as far as I can see. Could be different as some people have claimed to lived a previous life. Too many contradictions?? Now, I am really confused.

You are welcome, Tommy.

 

So, why take the time to study this?

 

For me, it was sitting in a class about Eastern Religions in college. It was an elective, as the subject had always been interesting. But, I knew nothing at all about Buddhism.

 

Then I learned this:

 

          Dukkha (a deep down dissatisfaction with life)

          Cause of Dukkha (frustrated desire - getting too much of the things we don't want, and not enough of the                                              things we want)

          End of Dukkha  (it's not necessary to live that way)

          Way to the End of Dukkha (Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. Classically, the Noble Eightfold Path)

 

This is the Four Noble Truths. Sometimes I joke that I wish I had never heard of this. It's like that scene in the Matrix where the guy asks to be put back in the program. We spend our short lives careening around trying be happy in a world where it's impossible to be happy. 

 

At every turn, I could see the truth of Dukkha and the Cause of Dukkha. It isn't depressing, as some people say. It's a relief, because there is a way to end it. That end isn't happiness, it's acceptance. 

 

If there is something that I don't understand, such as the inner workings of the universe, or lifetime to lifetime rebirth, I just set it aside. Most people know the story about the man shot with an arrow, and how he won't allow the arrow to removed until he understands who shot it, why, how old they were, etc. By the time he understands all this, he dies. 

 

If Buddhism is just a philosophical pursuit, that's cool. But, it offers so much more. 

 

_/|\_

 

 

Edited Saturday at 12:20 PM by Keith108

[Cobie]

3 hours ago, Keith108 said:

... the story about the man shot with an arrow, and how he won't allow the arrow to removed until he understands

who shot it, why, how old they were, etc.

By the time he understands all this, he dies. ...

 

Exactly, it's about learning how to "take it out". 

Problem is, learning that also took me a life time. So ... 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 03:29 PM by Cobie

[doc benway]

On 3/6/2025 at 10:03 PM, Tommy said:

Yeah, this was probably asked before. But, I got to ask, ...

 

One of the basic teachings of Buddha is the concept of no self. If there is no self then how does rebirth work? If there is no soul to be reborn into another life then what does go on? Karma??

 

I think this is a wonderful topic for exploration which rewards patient and careful consideration over time, far more than any simple answer you could receive from even the most knowledgeable experts. I’ve slowly developed my own view over decades of learning, practice, and reflection and would say, for me it is an ongoing process that is informed by a variety of traditions. In other words, I think this is a very personal thing.

 

For a cogent and very concise discussion of the topic, here is a nice short article from Lion’s Roar which I recommend. 

https://www.lionsroar.com/ask-the-teachers-13/

 

Reincarnation is the idea that there is a fixed, permanent entity, eg a soul, which continues after life eventually inhabiting a new body in future incarnations. Buddhist and Bön thought leans more toward the term rebirth which seems to acknowledge the observation of recurrent patterns among the living without necessarily postulating an independent entity that transcends death and re-incarnates.

 

When it comes to rebirth, Buddhism is not completely homogenous. It contains multiple variants which have differing views on the topic. It’s also important to acknowledge that these concepts are rooted in Hindu metaphysics, among others, which were adapted to fit Buddhism’s radical reformation.

 

In Tibetan, there is the idea of kunzhi namshe, similar to the Sanskrit alaya vinjana. It may be worth your time to research these terms a bit, I’m not the best one to offer an accurate summary but they describe the way Buddhists imagine our karmic traces and debts to be stored and continue through the cycle of rebirth without postulating the continuity of individual souls.

 

On a tangent, you may find it interesting to explore ancient Tibetan ideas about the soul which are important in Tibetan medicine and can give some insight into the process and nature of rebirth in the Tibetan paradigm. The “bla” is a unique concept, often translated into English as soul, but having very different connotations. 

 

 

On 3/6/2025 at 10:03 PM, Tommy said:

What is the important lesson to be learned by going thru all the births, deaths and rebirths? Does a true realization of no self grant freedom from suffering, a liberation from rebirth? How does the realized mental state of consciousness allow for that?

 

I don’t believe there is necessarily one “important lesson to be learned.” Just as there are infinite lives, there are infinite possible lessons to be learned. If there is one very important lesson it may be simply to take a step back from identifying too closely with the endless questions and answers that arise in the mind and the one who is asking and answering; to simply observe that process with an open mind and open heart and see what it has to tell you.

 

Yes, the realization of the illusory nature of our experience of being an independent and separate self is profoundly liberating. Does it liberate one from rebirth? I can’t say for sure because I haven’t died yet. I can say that it does liberate me from a great deal of stress and suffering in my day to day experience of this life.

 

How does consciousness allow for that? By cultivating familiarity with, and trust in, radical openness to life and experience in each and every moment. Holding on to a fixed set of expectations and assumptions, and resistance to change, are primary causes of stress and discomfort. Trusting that each and every situation I find myself in can be met with the openness, warmth, and presence of my practice overcomes that, once I have enough experience and confidence to genuinely validate that trust. It’s a bit like holding tightly to something, thinking that you are in deep water and unable to swim; then letting go and finding the water is shallow or that you are so bouyant that the depth of the water is irrelevant. You develop trust and confidence in being open to whatever circumstances are present in this very moment, knowing the openness, clarity, and spaciousness of your practice, of your very being, which is the more fundamental nature of “self,” can accommodate anything, far more than that limited, fragile sense of a self trapped within a bag of skin with a fixed and finite set of ideas.

 

On 3/6/2025 at 10:03 PM, Tommy said:

Please note: Due to reactions I have received recently, I have to say that I am not looking for a fight. Not trying to insult anyone. Just true curiosity. Do not take offense for my words. If you have an opinion then please respond.

 

This is a good illustration of the power of not identifying with the illusory self. If I hold tightly to certain beliefs or traditions, if I identify with them, words could feel insulting or provocative. This is why politics and religion cause such intense reactivity, because we identify with them at a deep level, we allow them to define our core values, our very sense of self. If I am fully open to your words, without feeling the need to grasp at or protect my own beliefs, my spiritual identity if you will, then who is there to take offense? I can be open to being right, to being wrong, to believing this or believing that, or best of all IME, to releasing any sense of a need to believe. Why is there a need to grasp at a belief when I can be open and present to this very moment, as it is? A good metaphor for this is being as the sky, open and clear. Clouds and even powerful storms can arise in the sky, but they simply pass through, leaving the sky open and clear, as before. The sky is indestructible because it is empty.