Self-knowledge and mystical experiences - James Swartz

[dwai]

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8 Insights about Samadhi; Why Self Knowledge Transcends Discrete Mystic Experience(s) 

1. Samadhi brought about by concentrating and stilling the intellect may yield Self knowledge, but it will disappear as soon as concentrated absorption in the silence ends.  You can’t concentrate on one thing forever.

2. All knowledge, material or spiritual, occurs in the intellect.  Ignorance also occurs in the intellect. You need to know the difference between knowledge and ignorance.  If you do, you are free, because you will never choose ignorance because it causes suffering, whereas Self knowledge produces bliss.

3. Self-realization is Self-knowledge—understanding the “ever-present, ever-evident I” is non-dual consciousness, not a mystic experience.

4. Desires aren’t inherently evil; demonizing them is.  Desire is essential for pursuing Self-knowledge viz. liberation.  Desires that don’t cause you to break dharma are fine.  Nothing is created without desire.  Evil…injury to yourself and others…is caused by immaturity aka ignorance of your benign unborn whole and complete ordinary aware-full Self.  

5. Enlightenment isn’t a destination attained by following a path;  it is reclaiming our disowned nature by exposing the mind/intellect to Vedanta, the science of Self . What’s disowned due to ignorance must be claimed through knowledge, not action.  Action reinforces ignorance. It does not remove it. 

6. Dismissing Self knowledge because knowledge is “merely intellectual” is a “merely intellectual” conclusion based on the idea that thinking and awareness are in different orders of the one non-dual reality.  Life is a both/and, not an either/or.  

7. Any means of knowledge that reveals that the ever-present I is whole and complete is Vedanta.  The word Vedanta simply means “the knowledge that ends the quest for new experiences and new knowledge, which does not imply that new experiences and new knowledge are undesirable or unenjoyable.  

8. A skilled Vedanta teacher can convey the message directly to a prepared seeker, which does not imply that every Vedanta teacher is skilled.   Vedanta teaches freedom, not Vedanta.

 

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

All knowledge, material or spiritual, occurs in the intellect

 

In the Hindu tradition the human can learn to operate on many planes.  On each plane the result is knowing (a state) rather than knowledge (a concept).

 

For example: how does a newborn human know how to breathe?   Is that intellectual?

 

How does a mother know when her child is in danger when far away?

 

 

 

 

[dwai]

30 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

In the Hindu tradition the human can learn to operate on many planes.  On each plane the result is knowing (a state) rather than knowledge (a concept).

Knowing (verb) implies knowledge being acquired. 

30 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

For example: how does a newborn human know how to breathe?   Is that intellectual?

 

That is likely genetic memory. Most of the animal kingdom relies on it. Humans are perhaps the only exception beyond a certain age 

30 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

How does a mother know when her child is in danger when far away?

 

Intuition. What does this have to do with the OP? 

[Cobie]

In the DDJ , two characters are used for knowledge:

智 zhi4 - the wrong type of ‘knowledge’ (agreeing with society will further your career)

知 zhi1 - the right type of knowledge (helps you to become one with the Dao)

 

 

Edited March 20 by Cobie

[old3bob]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

 

 

umm, wisdom driving action is not ignorance

[Lairg]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

 

Quote

 

How does a mother know when her child is in danger when far away?

 

Intuition. What does this have to do with the OP? 

 

I was going to ignore that but on another site just read:

 

  The Master of Mysticism urges him to trust the knowing of the heart rather than the dogma of the mind.  

 

I agree.  Hence my distinction between the state of knowing (on any plane) and the mental construct of knowledge

 

 

[Sherman Krebbs]

Thanks for posting.  A few personal musings on the first three:

 

10 hours ago, dwai said:

8 Insights about Samadhi; Why Self Knowledge Transcends Discrete Mystic Experience(s) 

1. Samadhi brought about by concentrating and stilling the intellect may yield Self knowledge, but it will disappear as soon as concentrated absorption in the silence ends.  You can’t concentrate on one thing forever.

 

To me concentration is like a muscle.  It can be trained, but you can't hold a 50 lb weight forever (well maybe Schwarzenegger could, but I cant, and eventually even he would have to let go)  In my view, it is the letting go of concentration, like the relaxation of a muscle, that brings about self awareness.  Unlike concentrating (i.e. using a muscle to hold a weight), it is possible to stay in a relaxed state for an extended period, but nothing lasts forever.  And it is probably still necessary to train the mind through concentrative practice, else it turns into a couch potato. 

 

10 hours ago, dwai said:

2. All knowledge, material or spiritual, occurs in the intellect.  Ignorance also occurs in the intellect. You need to know the difference between knowledge and ignorance.  If you do, you are free, because you will never choose ignorance because it causes suffering, whereas Self knowledge produces bliss.

 

Sometimes it feels that there is a deeper, ethereal "knowledge"  that transcends the analytical and linguistics knowledge of the mind.  My intellect (as well as all other phenomena) are tools to keep me alive, which I can also use to connect with that deeper knowledge.

 

10 hours ago, dwai said:

3. Self-realization is Self-knowledge—understanding the “ever-present, ever-evident I” is non-dual consciousness, not a mystic experience.

 

I actually don't know what dualism really means, other than some sort of ghost in the shell conceptualization, which to me makes no sense.  Here I am, what else is there which must be split in two.  Surely there different components ( a heart, a brain, a nose, cells, mitochondria, molecules, atoms, particles, quantum fields...), but these all function as one thing or being, which lies in a deeper place than I have the ability to comprehend intellectually, although at the same time its presence is always right there on the surface.  I have to talk about it like it is something else, but that is just an artifact of language since I am both the speaker and the object that is being spoken of.    In a way, maybe everyone and everything is part of one thing working in cosmic homeostasis. 

 

 

 

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

maybe everyone and everything is part of one thing working in cosmic homeostasis. 

 

The task is to work out which part you are supposed to be in the oneness

 

 

 

 

[stirling]

5 hours ago, Lairg said:

The task is to work out which part you are supposed to be in the oneness

 

Are there parts in oneness? 

[dwai]

9 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

Sometimes it feels that there is a deeper, ethereal "knowledge"  that transcends the analytical and linguistics knowledge of the mind.  My intellect (as well as all other phenomena) are tools to keep me alive, which I can also use to connect with that deeper knowledge.

In Vedanta it is called “para” (absolute) and “apara” (local) jnana (knowledge). The deeper (para) knowledge is pure awareness (chit) itself. The local (apara) knowledge is knowledge of things. The pure awareness is reflected in the mind leading to local knowledge.

 

The way to know this awareness is simply by being aware. But it is so subtle, and the mind is so used to grasping at objects that this awareness is missed (but it’s always present, hidden in plain sight. That’s why the wise say “one is not even a hair’s breadth apart from Dao/Brahman”…
 

But really, there is nothing apart from awareness, things just appear to be separate. Like how in a dream the dreamer’s mind splits into subject (witness) and objects (dream world). There is no “world” apart from the dreamer’s mind. The waking reality is also like that. 
 

[stirling]

In Buddhism this is expressed as the "Two Truths Doctrine":

 

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The Buddhist doctrine of the two truths (Sanskrit: dvasatya, Wylie: bden pa gnyis) differentiates between two levels of satya (Sanskrit; Pāli: sacca; meaning "truth" or "reality") in the teaching of Śākyamuni Buddha: the "conventional" or "provisional" (saṁvṛti) truth, and the "absolute" or "ultimate" (paramārtha) truth.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine

 

As Ken Wilber puts it (paraphrasing... can't find the quote I have): 

 

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"Non-dual reality includes and supersedes duality"

 

The "emptiness", or "pure awareness" is the broader field in which all conditioned, seemingly separate, dualistic "things" arise.

[Lairg]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

Are there parts in oneness? 

 

Of course.  The Oneness has Intent and thereby changes Its internal flows and thus the associated aspects of Existence

 

 

 

 

[dwai]

18 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

Of course.  The Oneness has Intent and thereby changes Its internal flows and thus the associated aspects of Existence

 

 

 

 

But really, there is nothing apart from awareness, things just appear to be separate. Like how in a dream the dreamer’s mind splits into subject (witness) and objects (dream world). There is no “world” apart from the dreamer’s mind. The waking reality is also like that

[stirling]

18 hours ago, Lairg said:

Of course.  The Oneness has Intent and thereby changes Its internal flows and thus the associated aspects of Existence

 

Complete seeing of the "oneness" is understanding that the phenomenal world of seemingly separate things originates from it. It is seeing that time, space and self are all inventions of the mind. No god or galactic process creates this moment, no story, no cosmology, no epistemology, defines it. This moment, where you are, and without an "I" is what is real... anything else is a belief - what we construct when we don't gnow (gnosis). 

[doc benway]

On 3/19/2025 at 4:51 PM, dwai said:

What’s disowned due to ignorance must be claimed through knowledge, not action.  Action reinforces ignorance. It does not remove it. 

 

I find this segment a bit problematic and the message he is trying to get across, which I do get, could perhaps be better expressed:

 

What’s disowned… nothing was never disowned and is always ever-present.

…must be claimed… , who is claiming something and what are they claiming?

… through knowledge, not action…  knowledge is often interpreted in a materialistic, objectified way, care is needed here

Action reinforces ignorance….  so can knowledge, particularly of the wrong kind or misinterpreted; and action can certainly express wisdom, removing ignorance, if engaged with full presence. Teaching, guiding, and pointing out are actions that dispel, rather than reinforce ignorance. With maturity and stability in our vew, meditation, and conduct, all action should dispel rather than reinforce ignorance.

[dwai]

7 minutes ago, doc benway said:

 

I find this segment a bit problematic and the message he is trying to get across, which I do get, could perhaps be better expressed:

 

What’s disowned… nothing was never disowned and is always ever-present.

…must be claimed… , who is claiming something and what are they claiming?

… through knowledge, not action…  knowledge is often interpreted in a materialistic, objectified way, care is needed here

Action reinforces ignorance….  so can knowledge, particularly of the wrong kind or misinterpreted; and action can certainly express wisdom, removing ignorance, if engaged with full presence. Teaching, guiding, and pointing out are actions that dispel, rather than reinforce ignorance. With maturity and stability in our vew, meditation, and conduct, all action should dispel rather than reinforce ignorance.

What I take away from  his aphorism is that the “mind” which “disowns” its true nature (due to ignorance), cannot perform actions to realize it. The realization happens in the mind, through subtle intelligence/discerning intellect (sukshma buddhi). 

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

But really, there is nothing apart from awareness, things just appear to be separate. Like how in a dream the dreamer’s mind splits into subject (witness) and objects (dream world). There is no “world” apart from the dreamer’s mind. The waking reality is also like that

 

This is why dream yoga can be such a powerful practice.

You see this directly when awake in the dream. 

It helps loosen the solid feeling of waking “reality"

[doc benway]

Just now, dwai said:

What I take away from  his aphorism is that the “mind” which “disowns” its true nature (due to ignorance), cannot perform actions to realize it. The realization happens in the mind, through subtle intelligence/discerning intellect (sukshma buddhi). 

 

You say it better!

[doc benway]

It’s nice to have the site working.

Thanks @sean, wherever you are!

[Lairg]

4 hours ago, dwai said:

really, there is nothing apart from awareness, things just appear to be separate.

 

What objectives might Oneness have in causing the appearance of separation?

 

Why would Oneness want such a troubling species as humans?

 

 

 

 

[Lairg]

2 hours ago, doc benway said:

This is why dream yoga can be such a powerful practice.

You see this directly when awake in the dream. 

 

My many experiments with this, using another observer, are that dreams are often in a parallel reality/universe

 

Why would the Oneness want parallel universes?

[doc benway]

53 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

My many experiments with this, using another observer, are that dreams are often in a parallel reality/universe

 

Why would the Oneness want parallel universes?

 

Because they’re cozy and interesting, perhaps?

[Lairg]

Perhaps Oneness has substantial reasons for generating universes

 

If so, perhaps the troublesome humans have work to do

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

 

What objectives might Oneness have in causing the appearance of separation?

 

Why would Oneness want such a troubling species as humans?

 

 

 

 

That’s a wrong question imho. It is not that awareness wants this or that. The appearances are phenomena that arise in awareness due to ignorance.
 

From awareness point of view nothing has ever happened/is happening/will ever happen. But it is a bit hard for people to accept, so they are eased into the pool (so to speak)  

[Lairg]

Just now, dwai said:

From awareness point of view nothing has ever happened/is happening/will ever happen.

 

My observations of the dynamic flows within Oneness differ greatly from yours