Visualization - Pros and Cons

[Keith108]

Hi all,

 

I did a search for this, but didn't really find what I was looking for. 

 

I notice some systems are pro-visualization, while other seem against it. I was wondering what the reason for this was, and also what are the pros and cons of using visualization in our practice.

 

Thanks in advance!

Keith

[Keith108]

Prolly rather talk about stuff the Jewish folks invented....

 

Anyway, Nathan Brine makes some points that resonate for me in this one:

 

 

[Neirong]

On 24.03.2025 at 2:49 PM, Keith108 said:

I did a search for this, but didn't really find what I was looking for. 

Visualization is not a newcomer's topic. These practices are difficult, demanding, and it would be hard to find anyone capable of mastering them.

 

On 24.03.2025 at 2:49 PM, Keith108 said:

some systems are pro-visualization, while other seem against it

Chess and arm wrestling are both competitive sports, but they have vastly different training methods.
You can't expect to develop your brain doing squats, and you can't expect to develop your muscles, simply visualizing them growing.

 

On 24.03.2025 at 10:37 PM, Keith108 said:

Nathan Brine makes some points

He is not entirely wrong when he says it might be useless in his own practice (whatever that is).

However, whenever he talks about visualization, confusing it with imagination, or about third-eye development, there is an absolute lack of knowledge, experience, and understanding, bordering on Dunning-Kruger syndrome.

He does not know what he is talking about.

[JadeWizard]

4 hours ago, Neirong said:

Chess and arm wrestling are both competitive sports, but they have vastly different training methods.
You can't expect to develop your brain doing squats, and you can't expect to develop your muscles, simply visualizing them growing.

There was actually a few studies done on this. They had one group train regularly, one group not at all, and another only visualization of workouts with reps and all. The results actually showed that the people who visualized not only improved their performance but actually grew muscle fibers! I think it was only like 2% less that the group that did regular training. That's crazy. As Taoists, i think i speak for all of us when i say we shouldn't underestimate the power of the mind.

 

I'm all for visualization but in conjunction with the regular training is obviously what you would want to do. This is simply a form of meditation used in Kungfu that shouldn't be overlooked if you have athletic skill goals. I think a big part of it is that you are just going deeper into the awareness of the smaller details your body thus improving the fine control of your body. You can actually grow and extend your nerves and improve control of parts of your body, and the nerves are extending from the brain. See where I'm going with this? 

Personally i think this gives me an edge in being good at things even if its my first time trying. I meditate a lot so my visualization is strong.

Try it! Good Luck!

[JadeWizard]

In deep Meditation, i think there's things we do that can only be described as visualization but the reality is that we are doing "something else". That seems so vague but i don't know how else to describe it. maybe it starts out as a visualization but then progresses to something else completely if we are talking about energy.

 

Another reason for visualization could be to create emotions and to bring awareness to a "Feeling" or a specific frequency. if you visualize winning the lottery you may observe changes in your body. visualize a negative situation your dealing with and you may notice how its actually effecting you. visualize something sexual you may actually SEE your body's reaction LOL
There's a myriad of things you can do with the information from that feedback.

[doc benway]

On 3/24/2025 at 7:49 AM, Keith108 said:

Hi all,

 

I did a search for this, but didn't really find what I was looking for. 

 

I notice some systems are pro-visualization, while other seem against it. I was wondering what the reason for this was, and also what are the pros and cons of using visualization in our practice.

 

Thanks in advance!

Keith

 

I think the answer depends on what practice you are referring to.

 

In neigong and Daoist practices, my teacher never recommended or taught any type of visualization, not even in qigong practice. On the other hand, we did discuss location and characteristics of points and meridians so to say there was no visualization involved is a bit inaccurate, IMO. I believe one reason to minimize visualization is to prevent the conceptual mind from engaging and misguiding the attention and interfering with the practice. My Daoist teacher’s core instruction was to focus on the practice instructions and the experience of practice rather than conceptualize, analyze, or follow the intellect. It was more about focusing and training the attention than creating any internal imagery. He even discouraged reading and study in favor of investing that time in practice. While those things have a valuable role in our lives, we rarely experience the world in any other way so it is important to learn to use the attention in a different way so that we are not overly dependent on, and consequently limited by, our intellectual and conceptual faculties.

 

In Bön and Buddhist systems, visualization is useful and widely used.

It is very useful for concentrating, focusing and training the awareness and attention which are otherwise prone to distraction and preoccupation. I think it could be especially valuable to us in this high-tech age when we always have ready access to every answer, image, or explanation we could desire at the touch of a screen. Our powers of focus and attentiveness aren’t getting enough exercise, not to mention our memory and other cognitive functions. In tantric practices, visualization is a core element and it’s efficacy can be readily seen in the results of practices like trul khor, tsa lung, tummo, chöd, dream yoga, deity yoga, and so forth. In these practices, it generally refers to a sequence of steps rather than a single, simple creation of a mental visual image. For example, we may first create and stabilize the visual imagery, then allow this to deepen into a more comprehensive imagination that goes beyond visual representation and may include other senses, then to a more intuitive felt sense of the thing, even a channeling of characteristics and qualities, and finally to simply being, or full embodiment. My teacher would often instruct in a retreat to first visualize, then imagine, then feel, then BE, eventually skipping the early steps when not needed. 

 

It’s important to acknowledge that visualization can mean different things. It can mean creating an internal visual image of something; it can be a wider imaginary representation that can include sound, smell, taste, and feel. It can be more intuitive. It can be to conjure up a memory or a plan. It can be creation of a feeling in the body like heat; it can be to imagine the pain and suffering of others and bringing that into one’s own field of awareness, lots of permutations are possible. I think it is difficult, if not impossible, to entirely exclude visualization in its myriad forms from our practice. For example, even those who emphatically discount the value of visualization in Daoist neigong carry in their minds some representation of the inner architecture, the inner anatomy, the expected and conceptualized characteristics of energetics, the expectations for outcome and so forth. All of this is, to some degree, visualization, IMO, and all of it can be useful.

 

Visualization is a wonderful tool even in largely physical activities like golf, tennis, music, martial arts, weight lifting, etc… The power of mind is not to be underestimated. I heard a marvelous story of Arthur Rubinstein. He accepted a last minute invitation to play a piano concerto in London, one he’d not practiced or played in years. On the transatlantic flight, he spent hours visualizing the score in his mind and playing through it from beginning to end. He arrived in London and performed without error. My music teacher often recommended I use this technique to practice when I didn’t have the opportunity to actually use an instrument. 

 

[Keith108]

9 hours ago, Neirong said:

Quote

Visualization is not a newcomer's topic. These practices are difficult, demanding, and it would be hard to find anyone capable of mastering them.

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Neirong. If the mods feel the post is more appropriate somewhere else on the forum, please feel free to move it there. 

 

9 hours ago, Neirong said:

Quote

Chess and arm wrestling are both competitive sports, but they have vastly different training methods.
You can't expect to develop your brain doing squats, and you can't expect to develop your muscles, simply visualizing them growing.

 

Actually, there are lots of ways to incorporate visualization with strength training. But, that's a different topic, I suppose. My question was specifically about Daoist practices, which was answered in the previous quote (demanding, difficult, etc.). 

 

9 hours ago, Neirong said:

He is not entirely wrong when he says it might be useless in his own practice (whatever that is).

However, whenever he talks about visualization, confusing it with imagination, or about third-eye development, there is an absolute lack of knowledge, experience, and understanding, bordering on Dunning-Kruger syndrome.

He does not know what he is talking about.

 

Since I don't know the specific qualifications needed to make this judgement, I will just leave this alone. Seems a little over the top though. 

[Keith108]

2 hours ago, doc benway said:

 

I think the answer depends on what practice you are referring to.

 

In neigong and Daoist practices, my teacher never recommended or taught any type of visualization, not even in qigong practice. On the other hand, we did discuss location and characteristics of points and meridians so to say there was no visualization involved is a bit inaccurate, IMO. I believe one reason to minimize visualization is to prevent the conceptual mind from engaging and misguiding the attention and interfering with the practice. My Daoist teacher’s core instruction was to focus on the practice instructions and the experience of practice rather than conceptualize, analyze, or follow the intellect. It was more about focusing and training the attention than creating any internal imagery. He even discouraged reading and study in favor of investing that time in practice. While those things have a valuable role in our lives, we rarely experience the world in any other way so it is important to learn to use the attention in a different way so that we are not overly dependent on, and consequently limited by, our intellectual and conceptual faculties.

 

In Bön and Buddhist systems, visualization is useful and widely used.

It is very useful for concentrating, focusing and training the awareness and attention which are otherwise prone to distraction and preoccupation. I think it could be especially valuable to us in this high-tech age when we always have ready access to every answer, image, or explanation we could desire at the touch of a screen. Our powers of focus and attentiveness aren’t getting enough exercise, not to mention our memory and other cognitive functions. In tantric practices, visualization is a core element and it’s efficacy can be readily seen in the results of practices like trul khor, tsa lung, tummo, chöd, dream yoga, deity yoga, and so forth. In these practices, it generally refers to a sequence of steps rather than a single, simple creation of a mental visual image. For example, we may first create and stabilize the visual imagery, then allow this to deepen into a more comprehensive imagination that goes beyond visual representation and may include other senses, then to a more intuitive felt sense of the thing, even a channeling of characteristics and qualities, and finally to simply being, or full embodiment. My teacher would often instruct in a retreat to first visualize, then imagine, then feel, then BE, eventually skipping the early steps when not needed. 

 

It’s important to acknowledge that visualization can mean different things. It can mean creating an internal visual image of something; it can be a wider imaginary representation that can include sound, smell, taste, and feel. It can be more intuitive. It can be to conjure up a memory or a plan. It can be creation of a feeling in the body like heat; it can be to imagine the pain and suffering of others and bringing that into one’s own field of awareness, lots of permutations are possible. I think it is difficult, if not impossible, to entirely exclude visualization in its myriad forms from our practice. For example, even those who emphatically discount the value of visualization in Daoist neigong carry in their minds some representation of the inner architecture, the inner anatomy, the expected and conceptualized characteristics of energetics, the expectations for outcome and so forth. All of this is, to some degree, visualization, IMO, and all of it can be useful.

 

Visualization is a wonderful tool even in largely physical activities like golf, tennis, music, martial arts, weight lifting, etc… The power of mind is not to be underestimated. I heard a marvelous story of Arthur Rubinstein. He accepted a last minute invitation to play a piano concerto in London, one he’d not practiced or played in years. On the transatlantic flight, he spent hours visualizing the score in his mind and playing through it from beginning to end. He arrived in London and performed without error. My music teacher often recommended I use this technique to practice when I didn’t have the opportunity to actually use an instrument. 

 

Thanks for the response, Doc. Some really solid points made!

 

My question was very specifically about Daoist practice, I suppose even more specifically about Neigong, so I appreciate that portion of the response especially.

 

For readers of this thread, my background is Zen Buddhism, and I have a very strong daily sitting practice, as well as doing regular retreat work and twice weekly Sangha practice. The specific practice I do does not involve visualization. I was just curious why some Daoist lineages diverge on the topic of visualization.