depth of evil was not underestimated

[old3bob]

 

a certain depth of evil was not underestimated,  just the quick speed of its takeover....Btw. good and evil are parts spiritual teachings even if some are in denial or don't want to deal with same.

 

[Lairg]

 

Humans certainly like to think in terms of good and evil - but that may be a narrow and short term perspective.

 

Adversity encourages humans to expand their capabilities and perspectives - and perhaps discover the intent behind their existence.

 

Rather than good and evil it may be better to think in complementary terms such as light and dark, yin and yang.  

 

When this universe ceases to exist, what will happen to the concepts of good and evil?

 

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:05 AM by Lairg

[old3bob]

 

Yin and Yang  do not plan or hunger for takeover...(willfully as Beings)

 

Btw, there is following Dharma or a twisting to adharma, which basic elemental forces do not have individual willpower and designs to manipulate as Beings may do,  thus we are talking about major differences.  And not just new age concepts.

 

At the end of the cosmic cycle the Great Tao remains while all else returns.

 

Edited yesterday at 10:34 AM by old3bob

[old3bob]

 

...and adharmic  includes not only the manipulation of elemental forces but the enslaving of or harm to the minds and hearts of other Beings or the enthrallment of their souls!

 

but of course "spiritual" people know this and counter in both seen and unseen ways...

[doc benway]

16 hours ago, old3bob said:

Btw. good and evil are parts spiritual teachings even if some are in denial or don't want to deal with same.

 

 

Do you believe good and evil to be absolute or relative judgements?

 

[stirling]

When the mind is quiet and still, see if you can find "good" and "evil". The results can be illuminating. 

 

In my experience "good" and "evil" are like all dualities - empty. Another example: Human Rights. Do we have them in a cage with a lion? In a country that is a dictatorship? Where do they exist?

 

Another example: Many medicines are poisons, including radioactive treatments for cancer, antibiotics. True also for foods of various types, like common salt in large quantities, or taken apart into its two ingredients, sodium and chloride. 

 

A personal anecdote: My wife's definition of a weed is "whatever plant I don't like". In the past this has included any number of plants I purposely put into the ground but she decided she didn't care for. 

 

All conceptual designations are ultimately this oneness/not two-ness we walk in - it isn't an abstraction, or something we can come to understand later, it is true NOW. It can be SEEN now. Real spiritual teachings are not just for when we are meditating, wearing our prayer beads and funny hats, and burning incense, they are ALWAYS for the moment you occupy, whatever that is. They are intended to be practical. 

 

What truly matters in all moments is how KIND we are, and recognizing the struggle/suffering of our fellow beings. 

[old3bob]

36 minutes ago, doc benway said:

 

Do you believe good and evil to be absolute or relative judgements?

 

 

ah sounds like a rhetorical question...do you believe that in relative realms that good and evil take place?  

[old3bob]

22 minutes ago, stirling said:

When the mind is quiet and still, see if you can find "good" and "evil". The results can be illuminating. 

 

In my experience "good" and "evil" are like all dualities - empty. Another example: Human Rights. Do we have them in a cage with a lion? In a country that is a dictatorship? Where do they exist?

 

Another example: Many medicines are poisons, including radioactive treatments for cancer, antibiotics. True also for foods of various types, like common salt in large quantities, or taken apart into its two ingredients, sodium and chloride. 

 

A personal anecdote: My wife's definition of a weed is "whatever plant I don't like". In the past this has included any number of plants I purposely put into the ground but she decided she didn't care for. 

 

All conceptual designations are ultimately this oneness/not two-ness we walk in - it isn't an abstraction, or something we can come to understand later, it is true NOW. It can be SEEN now. Real spiritual teachings are not just for when we are meditating, wearing our prayer beads and funny hats, and burning incense, they are ALWAYS for the moment you occupy, whatever that is. They are intended to be practical. 

 

What truly matters in all moments is how KIND we are, and recognizing the struggle/suffering of our fellow beings. 

 

for those that have reached la la land its a moot point, for the rest of us such must be dealt with thus not by-passed

[stirling]

11 minutes ago, old3bob said:

for those that have reached la la land its a moot point, for the rest of us such must be dealt with thus not by-passed

 

Everything is Brahman... no exceptions. Brittney Spears, cream cheese, woodpeckers and Donald Trump are all Brahman too. Where you are, this moment, IS "la la land" Bob, and always has been. There is nowhere else to go, and nothing else to "be". Ultimately it isn't possible to bypass the world as it is, but it IS possible to change your relationship to it... but you have to be sick of your current relationship to it first, and stop generating that relationship.

 

As I said:

 

Quote

Real spiritual teachings are not just for when we are meditating, wearing our prayer beads and funny hats, and burning incense, they are ALWAYS for the moment you occupy, whatever that is. They are intended to be practical. 

 

[liminal_luke]

What old3bob has done here is start an undercover political thread, subverting the desire of the mods to put the kibosh on current event discussion.  When he refers to "a certain depth of evil" I know exactly what -- and whom -- he is talking about.  He likely thinks that by talking in code he can escape official censure.  And he´s probably right.  Smart fella.

Edited 18 hours ago by liminal_luke

[doc benway]

11 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

ah sounds like a rhetorical question...

 

It was not meant to be rhetorical.

You speak often of good and evil and I wonder if you take them to be absolute or relative. 

 

11 minutes ago, old3bob said:

do you believe that in relative realms that good and evil take place?  

 

Good and evil are adjectives, labels we use to designate our reaction and relationship to actions, statements, and people mostly.

Our reactions are based on individual and collective experience, education, and conditioning.

So yes, I consider good and evil designations to be relative designations, dependent on a host of factors.

In fact, in many ways they are as dependent on the judge as on the object of said judgment.

 

 

 

 

 

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

A personal anecdote: My wife's definition of a weed is "whatever plant I don't like". In the past this has included any number of plants I purposely put into the ground but she decided she didn't care for. 

 

On a related note, I offer the example of the dreaded gluten:

 

 

[doc benway]

44 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

for those that have reached la la land its a moot point, for the rest of us such must be dealt with thus not by-passed

 

I suggest that for everyone such must be dealt with thus not bypassed.

I suspect @stirling would concur.

To recognize the relative nature of designations such as good and evil doesn’t necessarily mean bypassing.

All practitioners need to be aware of bypassing.

And I would say you don’t have to be a practitioner to bypass - anyone can repress, suppress, feign ignorance, willfully ignore, look the other way, indulge in escapism, etc… and convince themselves they are doing well for themselves and others, all of that is bypassing.

It’s happening all the time “for the rest of us” as well as those of us in la la land, wherever that may be.

 

[stirling]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

What old3bob has done here is start an undercover political thread, subverting the desire of the mods to put the kibosh on current event discussion.  When he refers to "a certain depth of evil" I know exactly what -- and whom -- he is talking about.  He likely thinks that by talking in code he can escape official censure.  And he´s probably right.  Smart fella.

We’ve got an eye on it, Luke. 🙏🙂

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

What old3bob has done here is start an undercover political thread, subverting the desire of the mods to put the kibosh on current event discussion.  When he refers to "a certain depth of evil" I know exactly what -- and whom -- he is talking about.  He likely thinks that by talking in code he can escape official censure.  And he´s probably right.  Smart fella.

 

since the beginning of time, in various forms,  (besides more recent history) Luke you sound like a "smart fella" and a by-passer who espouses same? 

[old3bob]

 

Btw we have many Buddhists here or those leaning that way who I'd say s it safe to say know that The Noble Eight Fold path does not ignore Dharma or adharma per the founder of Buddhism, nor by its many various schools and their founders over the past 2500 years or so; but If members and mods here want to do so then have at it... 

 

[stirling]

5 minutes ago, old3bob said:

Btw we have many Buddhists here or those leaning that way who I'd say s it safe to say know that The Noble Eight Fold path does not ignore Dharma or adharma per the founder of Buddhism, nor by its many various schools and their founders over the past 2500 years or so; but If members and mods here want to do so then have at it... 

 

Could you say this in a clearer, less roundabout way? I'm not sure I get your personal definition of dharma/adharma. 

 

My understanding is that, ultimately, EVERYTHING that arises in consciousness is dharma (or "teaching"). Where we experience resistance to reality we have the opportunity to learn what attachment or aversion in us is struggling with reality. 

 

If you are talking specifically about "Right Speech", in the The Noble Eightfold Path, a nice guideline for accomplishing it is shared in the Vaca Sutta:

 

Quote

“It is spoken at the right time?
It is spoken in truth?
It is spoken affectionately?
It is spoken beneficially?
It is spoken with a mind of good-will?” - Buddha, Vaca Sutta

 

Yes, EVERYTHING can be discussed this way.

-

 

I'd be happy... even interested... in discussing the nature of good and evil if you like, but it it is your intention to blow some steam over the current political situation here, or taunt someone into arguing with you about it, I think you know what has been decided about that -  and it isn't because anyone is rubber stamping the situation.

 

[johndoe2012]

I think good and evil exist in the normal relative reality we exist in. 

 

Eg a rapist I would consider evil even though I could understand that causes and conditions lead to that state of a human. 

 

I wouldn't just bypass 'oh, everything is emptiness, thus no punishment should be enacted', this would just be silly. 

[liminal_luke]

48 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

 Luke you sound like a "smart fella" 

 

Thanks.  I like to think so, though that assessment, alas, is not universally shared.  I´d say smart but not "nuke smart."

 

 

Edited 17 hours ago by liminal_luke

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Thanks.  I like to think so, though that assessment, alas, is not universally shared.  I´d say smart but not "nuke smart."

 

 

 

Ah ... in a thread about the depth of evil .....  what an apt adjective . 

[old3bob]

 

Dharma equals universal, spiritual law,  thus not law for suiting whatever designs individuals or  just a human perspective may want to fit it into.   

 

[johndoe2012]

16 hours ago, stirling said:

What truly matters in all moments is how KIND we are, and recognizing the struggle/suffering of our fellow beings. 

 

Always be kind = Mr nice guy which unfortunately doesn't work in abusive relationships where boundaries need to set and enforced. 

 

If one thinks this way - always be kind - lessons will be learned towards a more balanced approach in my experience. 

[johndoe2012]

From Flight of the Garuda by Keith Dowman on the invasion by Communist in Tibet

 

Quote

a lama whose vision is always a buddhafield remarked that the lesson of impermanence taught by the Chinese Red Guards, the truth of suffering taught by the People’s Liberation Army, not to forget the instruction on karmic retribution inculcated by defeat, is worth three lifetimes of meditation in a hermitage.