Karma is not maya (illusion)

[Bindi]

I have come to believe that:
Deluded thoughts (stories, egoic reactions, false identities) are created to avoid fully feeling the karmic wound.

Karma = frozen emotion, a psychic imprint from a previous experience — often traumatic, unbearable, or overwhelming — that couldn’t be integrated at the time.

These wounds become energetic knots in the subtle body, and they block the descent or activation of Shiva/higher consciousness.

Declaring everything “maya” (illusion) is an intellectual or metaphysical strategy to avoid feeling pain.

What we really protect isn’t ego, per se — it’s the core wound underneath the ego — and that wound is karmic.

Therefore, the path to awakening is not about denying karma (by calling it illusion), but going toward it, feeling it, and integrating it.

 

1. Karma as Frozen Emotion 

When a trauma or shock is too intense to process, it gets stored:

As a mental pattern (vasana),

An emotional freeze (samskara),

Or a somatic knot (granthi).

That unprocessed experience literally anchors us in time — we carry a loop of the past inside our subtle field, and until we feel it fully, it dictates our thoughts, reactions, and spiritual limits.

This is not maya — this is a real energetic structure within our being.

To call it 'illusion' before it’s healed is not insight — it’s avoidance masquerading as wisdom.

 

2. The Role of Deluded Thoughts (Stories) is Protective

These thoughts are not random — they are psychic armor. They function to:

Avoid re-experiencing the karmic pain.

Maintain a sense of control.

Protect the ego from collapse.

Keep the karmic wound buried.

The stories aren't the root problem — they are the defense against the real problem.

And the real problem is:

“I cannot feel this pain and survive.”

 

3. Bypassing Karma = Blocking Transformation

In Advaita or Buddhist logic, there’s often a push to invalidate the personal story as quickly as possible by labeling it “maya.”

But without first healing what fuels that story, this can:

Reinforce repression.

Cause disembodiment.

Create “false awakening.”

Leave the karmic field unchanged.

So — karma must be healed, not dismissed.

 

4. Healing Karma is What Allows Shiva/Higher consciousness to Take Root

This unhealed karmic wound prevents Shiva/Higher consciousness from establishing itself.

Shiva cannot settle in a body that is still controlled by old pain loops. He may visit, but he cannot inhabit.

Because Shiva is not an escape. He is the container for total reality — which includes all pain, all history, all karma.

He can only stay when:

The body no longer flinches away from itself.

The heart is willing to feel everything.

The ego no longer needs to defend the wound.

Then, and only then, can Shiva stay. 
Shiva/higher consciousness is an energetic reality, not just a concept. 

 

 In Summary

karma is the bottleneck, not maya. Karma blocks the flow; maya is the symptom.

Calling the wound “not real” just to avoid pain is itself a deeper illusion.

The path to integration is not abstraction — it’s direct feeling, honest contact, willingness to suffer consciously.

When the original wound is felt, it is healed, and when it is healed Shiva takes his seat, actually. Higher consciousness is brought into the world. 

Then there’s no need to say “everything is maya” — because there’s no longer anything to defend.

 

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

Healing Karma is What Allows Shiva/Higher consciousness to Take Root

 

In my observation resolving personal karma is an established precondition for first stage enlightenment.  Forgiveness of self and others is central to right relationship.

 

Group, planetary, systemic and galactic karma still remain but the refined human tends to less invasive karmic experiences.

 

 

[old3bob]

 

"blocking" is a clear descriptive way to put it,  or blocking the hurt from hurting more....problem is that in blocking out the hurt then a blocking out of a healing is also taking place.  (or an x amount of  walling off against 'bad' can result in an x amount of walling off against 'good' thus getting stuck behind a wall,   as your text implied to me Bindi and which I'm no stranger to )  

[Apech]

I think it’s better to understand maya as meaning ‘not what it appears to be’ rather than illusion.  

[johndoe2012]

I agree we need to heal our blocks.

 

If we don't, it will show up as illness in our bodies and broken relationships and careers. 

 

However, there is a caveat I think. The veils as described in 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Awakening-through-Veils-Seekers-Guide/dp/1452573921/

 

can reinforce what people call 'story' especially regarding doership and not-self. Which means at one 'level' if something comes up it can appear very significant but if a veil is removed then the appearance has a more light quality because the personal self has been diminished. 

 

I think that is why the tendency to rush through awakening exists but I don't think it works in real life. 

 

Another thing that is important is connection to heaven and earth through open crown and leg channels. If the energy doesn't flow naturally here then stories will build up and seem more solid due to reinforcement in the head. 

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

I think it’s better to understand maya as meaning ‘not what it appears to be’ rather than illusion.  

I used maya as illusion based on this paragraph that was posted in a thread recently -

 

Quote

“Atyantika refers to the liberation of one's sense of self. Atyantikapralaya is achieved with the knowledge of God, which occurs when one loses oneself in service to the Paramatman, the Supreme Self. This involves the recognition that most of the cause and effect that occurs in the phenomenal universe is maya, an illusion, and that all that has a beginning and an end is not real. One conquers avidya (ignorance) with the realisation that there is no distinction between one's own Atman (Self) and the Paramatman. When one finally realises this truth, one's sense of self dissolves into and unites with Brahman, and one achieves mukti (liberation).” Wikipedia

I could have responded directly in that thread, but I’ve been thinking about the nature of karma a lot lately and I thought I’d start a thread focused on karma specifically. 
 

I agree with your perspective though, our perceptions are distorted, and even with the best intentions, we often don’t see things as they are - I’m thinking because we’ve learned to shy away from the rawness of reality.

 

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

I agree we need to heal our blocks.

 

If we don't, it will show up as illness in our bodies and broken relationships and careers. 

 

However, there is a caveat I think. The veils as described in 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Awakening-through-Veils-Seekers-Guide/dp/1452573921/

 

can reinforce what people call 'story' especially regarding doership and not-self. Which means at one 'level' if something comes up it can appear very significant but if a veil is removed then the appearance has a more light quality because the personal self has been diminished. 

 

I think that is why the tendency to rush through awakening exists but I don't think it works in real life. 

 

Another thing that is important is connection to heaven and earth through open crown and leg channels. If the energy doesn't flow naturally here then stories will build up and seem more solid due to reinforcement in the head. 

But how are perceptual veils actually removed while one is still caught in delusion? What is the ‘identity’ being dissolved, if not the structure protecting the karmic wound? And how does one align energy when their perception is still shaped by pain or fragmentation?

It seems to me that these veils are often held in place by the very karmic pain we haven’t fully felt. So wouldn’t facing the wound be a necessary part of dissolving the veil?

[Bindi]

8 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

In my observation resolving personal karma is an established precondition for first stage enlightenment. 
 

 

I’m not at all sure what first stage enlightenment is but I fully agree resolving personal karma is necessary for ‘spiritual’ progress. 

 

8 hours ago, Lairg said:

Forgiveness of self and others is central to right relationship.
 

 

For me, the word forgiveness doesn’t quite capture the process. I don’t experience karma as something to forgive — I see it as a psychic wound, a frozen moment of overwhelming emotion that couldn’t be felt at the time it occurred. It’s not “wrong” — it’s unintegrated. So I see healing karma as less about moral reconciliation and more about fully feeling what was once unbearable.

 

8 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

Group, planetary, systemic and galactic karma still remain but the refined human tends to less invasive karmic experiences.

 

At this stage, I’m focused on personal karma. While I don’t outright discount broader layers like collective or even galactic karma, I feel like complicating our situation with those levels can distract from the immediate work of healing what’s right here, in our own subtle field. If the personal isn’t healed, we’re not in any position to honestly perceive or address anything larger anyway. 

[old3bob]

 

I'd say karma has and "x" amount of mass along with the resulting wrapping up in constricting like forces,  or like being coated with rusty layers, thus things don't run that well with such rust in the way.  One kicker is that it is said soul chooses karmic related situations to learn from and when one situation is resolved it can never have as much mass/force upon that soul again...not unlike once ego has been cracked open spirit can manifest through those cracks resulting in an ego that can never have as much of a dominating hold as it did before.

 

Btw, can a great soul/master help by suspending some of our karmas hold upon us and even mitigate some of it to help another, yes.  (aka or the working of grace and compassion that is beyond only our efforts which as noted elsewhere can go awry)

 

Edited 23 hours ago by old3bob

[johndoe2012]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

But how are perceptual veils actually removed while one is still caught in delusion?

 

I ask Merlin 😊 you can ask the Divine, a Goddess or whatever you fancy. 

 

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

What is the ‘identity’ being dissolved, if not the structure protecting the karmic wound?

 

The structure is more like a set of beliefs. Say you think you are the doer of action. Then we remove that structure. Then along with that goes eg the belief in guilt, blame, pride and arrogance. They no longer feel important. 

 

You see people believing in it and you can sense the delusion. 

 

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

So wouldn’t facing the wound be a necessary part of dissolving the veil?

 

Not necessarily. Some karma needs to be removed because of dependent structures. But not all. 

 

What you are suggesting is we remove all karma before awakening would happen. This would take too long and is not necessary. 

 

Of course, something like non-doership is not something you realize in one movement, unless you are ripe. 

 

Edit: I suggest taking VortexHealing courses in case you cannot do it on your own. 

Edited yesterday at 05:47 PM by johndoe2012

[stirling]

In Buddhism karma is a relative teaching. It is YOUR story about your "self" and the world. The world appears as it does because of the story we tell about it. Without that story the world is a very different place.

 

Quote

Then the venerable Sariputra said to the Brahma Sikhin, "As for me, O Brahma, I see this great earth, with its highs and lows, its thorns, its precipices, its peaks, and its abysses, as if it were entirely filled with ordure."

 

Brahma Sikhin replied, "The fact that you see such a buddha-field as this as if it were so impure, reverend Sariputra, is a sure sign that there are highs and lows in your mind and that your positive thought in regard to the buddha-gnosis is not pure either. Reverend Sariputra, those whose minds are impartial toward all living beings and whose positive thoughts toward the buddha-gnosis are pure see this buddha-field as perfectly pure."

 

Thereupon the Lord touched the ground of this billion-world-galactic universe with his big toe, and suddenly it was transformed into a huge mass of precious jewels, a magnificent array of many hundreds of thousands of clusters of precious gems, until it resembled the universe of the Tathagata Ratnavyuha, called Anantagunaratnavyuha. 

 

Everyone in the entire assembly was filled with wonder, each perceiving himself seated on a throne of jeweled lotuses.

Then, the Buddha said to the venerable Sariputra, "Sariputra, do you see this splendor of the virtues of the buddha-field?"

Sariputra replied, "I see it, Lord! Here before me is a display of splendor such as I never before heard of or beheld!"

 

The Buddha said, "Sariputra, this buddha-field is always thus pure". - Buddha, Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra

 

That purity of the "buddha-field" is enlightened mind, clear and still. We can get glimpses of this with an introduction to the "nature of mind", or "emptiness" with a teacher, or even on our own when the mind is still in meditation.

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

I used maya as illusion based on this paragraph that was posted in a thread recently -

 

I could have responded directly in that thread, but I’ve been thinking about the nature of karma a lot lately and I thought I’d start a thread focused on karma specifically. 
 

I agree with your perspective though, our perceptions are distorted, and even with the best intentions, we often don’t see things as they are - I’m thinking because we’ve learned to shy away from the rawness of reality.

 

 

which could beg the question for some of how could maya/samsara or the relative realms arise from and thus be connected to Brahman?  (with some schools in Hinduism "bypassing" such a question which Taoism does not per a paraphrase of the T.T.C. with, 'Tao gave birth to The One, to The Two, to the Three and on to the Ten Thousand')

[stirling]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

which could beg the question for some of how could maya/samsara or the relative realms arise from and thus be connected to Brahman?  (with some schools in Hinduism "bypassing" such a question which Taoism does not per a paraphrase of the T.T.C. with, 'Tao gave birth to The One, to The Two, to the Three and on to the Ten Thousand')

 

They aren't different. The Ten Thousand things (Form) arise and pass from emptiness:

 

Quote

...form is no different to emptiness,

emptiness no different to form.

 

That which is form is emptiness,

that which is emptiness, form.

 

Sensations, perceptions, impressions, and consciousness

are also like this. - Buddha, Heart Sutra

 

[old3bob]

hello quote master, 

umm, I said some schools of Hinduism and lets also not forget some schools of Buddhism...

[forestofclarity]

18 hours ago, Bindi said:

Declaring everything “maya” (illusion) is an intellectual or metaphysical strategy to avoid feeling pain.

 

There's nothing intellectual about it in my mind. If one examines closely, appearances are magical and dreamlike. This isn't somehting one chooses to believe or disbelieve. One investigates and sees for oneself. Plus the sages of these traditions do feel pain. 

 

Different traditions take a different approach. A Shankaran Advaitin might say that Brahman (the underlying nature) is real, but doesn't appear, and what does appear is based on ignorance, aka maya. A Shaivaite, or possibly a Vijnana Vedantin, will say that Shiva (the underlying nature) is real, and so are the expressions, aka Shakti. A Buddhist might say that both the are empty, and others may say that appearances are actually Buddha realms in disguise. 

 

18 hours ago, Bindi said:

In Advaita or Buddhist logic, there’s often a push to invalidate the personal story as quickly as possible by labeling it “maya.”

 

Not at all. That's why we have two truth teachings, for relative, transactional truth and ultimate truth. As is said, the view should be as broad as the sky but conduct as fine as barley flour. 

[Lairg]

5 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

This isn't something one chooses to believe or disbelieve. One investigates and sees for oneself.

 

Agreed.  I like to do inner plane experiments with a friend as observer.

 

7 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

we have two truth teachings, for relative, transactional truth and ultimate truth.

 

Some like binary approaches such as spirit and matter.  I prefer to consider a spectrum from dark separate density to light unified spirit.  This allows much analysis and experimentation.

 

Meanwhile I find the refined end of the spectrum keeps extending  - so that the start of the Absolute keeps retreating.

 

It may be that the human format has potential to be an interface between the manifest universe and the source of all universes.

 

If so, what are the design functionalities of the human format?

 

 

[Bindi]

55 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

There's nothing intellectual about it in my mind. If one examines closely, appearances are magical and dreamlike. This isn't somehting one chooses to believe or disbelieve. One investigates and sees for oneself. Plus the sages of these traditions do feel pain. 

 

Different traditions take a different approach. A Shankaran Advaitin might say that Brahman (the underlying nature) is real, but doesn't appear, and what does appear is based on ignorance, aka maya. A Shaivaite, or possibly a Vijnana Vedantin, will say that Shiva (the underlying nature) is real, and so are the expressions, aka Shakti. A Buddhist might say that both the are empty, and others may say that appearances are actually Buddha realms in disguise. 

 

 

Not at all. That's why we have two truth teachings, for relative, transactional truth and ultimate truth. As is said, the view should be as broad as the sky but conduct as fine as barley flour. 

Honestly, I’m just tired of hearing the same stock responses, especially from Buddhist and nondual traditions. It often feels like the same counterpoints get recycled no matter the context - they’re so familiar that they’ve started to feel more like auto-pilot than insight.

I’m trying to speak from a different layer. I’m not interested in theories. I’m interested in what changes us for real — what breaks the loop, opens the heart, allows actual higher consciousness to actually inhabit the body. 

Karma needs to be healed in energetic reality — not understood and dismissed as part of a philosophical concept. Until it’s felt, integrated, and released at the level of the subtle body, I maintain it continues to shape our experience, no matter what view is espoused. 
 

 

 

 

 

[Bindi]

How would anyone practically go about removing actual karma? Not conceptually, but energetically, directly. That seems like a good place to start.

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

How would anyone practically go about removing actual karma? Not conceptually, but energetically, directly. That seems like a good place to start.

 

The basic work of course is learning from the experiences and loving oneself and the other parties with heart light or at least higher mental love.  Emotional and lower mental love is not sufficient.

 

With personal karma, if higher love is in place and the individual forgives itself and all the relevant parties, then it is usual that the karmic supervisors (recording angel, lords of karma, lipika lords ...) remove the karmic energy from that individual.

 

Low level personal karma can be visualized as a grey arc extending from the left shoulder and contacting again at the left hip.  That is the only pattern I have seen.

 

Intense personal karma can be seen as a dark sphere encompassing the human.

 

Group karma is easier to deal with as the learning can occur anywhere in the group.  If the individual is approaching first stage enlightenment, it may request the Lords of Karma to shift the energy elsewhere in the group.   I have seen the LoK cooperate on several occasions - and refuse on another where the requesting party was holding resentment.

 

As a general comment, current cosmic processes require this solar system to lift its game.  To support this, aspects of systemic and galactic karma have recently been withdrawn.  This provides an opportunity to suitable soul-bearing species.

 

Who can test such propositions?  

 

 

Edited 15 hours ago by Lairg

[Tommy]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

Honestly, I’m just tired of hearing the same stock responses, especially from Buddhist and nondual traditions. It often feels like the same counterpoints get recycled no matter the context - they’re so familiar that they’ve started to feel more like auto-pilot than insight.

Does being tired of the same stock responses make them false? IDK. Does one discard it or delve into it to find the truth?

 

 

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

I’m trying to speak from a different layer. I’m not interested in theories. I’m interested in what changes us for real — what breaks the loop, opens the heart, allows actual higher consciousness to actually inhabit the body. 

Understood, looking for different layer. But, then wouldn't it then become theory if one hasn't experienced the ultimate truth or enlightenment?

Interest in what breaks the loop. opens the heart, allow actual higher consciousness? Wouldn't that require doing the actual work to do that? IDK. I am still on my own journey.

 

 

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

Karma needs to be healed in energetic reality — not understood and dismissed as part of a philosophical concept. Until it’s felt, integrated, and released at the level of the subtle body, I maintain it continues to shape our experience, no matter what view is espoused. 

I do not want to espouse the same Buddhist responses that you have grown so tired of. So, no real answer here. IDK.  Personally, I like hearing the Buddhist responses. It helps to hear that I am not far from the truth. Good night.

Edited 14 hours ago by Tommy

[idquest]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

How would anyone practically go about removing actual karma? Not conceptually, but energetically, directly. That seems like a good place to start.

 

IMO what you are looking for is how to master sung/song. Karma is a aggregation of things/energies that get in a way of getting sung/song. One can go deeper in the spirituality only with deep and specific release which is song/sung in daoist tradition. You don't remove karma, you shed it like small pieces of skin or hair while doing release/sung/song. Although in the beginning of the process, some people will need a set of precepts which basically means having an ethical approach to life (yama/niyama, commandments, and all that).

 

Regarding maya - this is likely to be only a mental concept. Because I can't see how maya can get in the way of releasing other bodies than conceptual/mental. If/when one stops conceptualising, there will not be maya. 

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

Does being tired of the same stock responses make them false?
 

Gotama certainly thought karma was important to actually deal with. He said:

 

Through many a birth I wandered in samsara, seeking but not finding the builder of this house. Painful is birth again and again.

But now, O house-builder, you are seen! You shall build no house again.

All your rafters are broken, your ridgepole shattered.

My mind has reached the Unconditioned; I have attained the destruction of craving.”

— Dhammapada 153–154

But his “Unconditioned” realisation left him with many conditioned beliefs such as:

 

Quote

 

Sexism / Resistance to Women Ordaining

• The Buddha initially refused to ordain women and only agreed after repeated requests from Ananda, his devoted attendant.
• Even then, he set up extra rules (the garudhammas) for bhikkhunis (nuns), including that a nun of even 100 years’ standing must defer to any monk.
• He also predicted that allowing women into the sangha would shorten the lifespan of the Dharma by 500 years.

 This reflects deep cultural conditioning from the patriarchal society of his time, which he did not fully transcend.

 

 

Emphasis on Renunciation Over Life-Affirmation

• His path was one of withdrawal: celibacy, non-attachment, and monastic renunciation were central.
• There was little to no acknowledgment of the transformative power of relationships, sexuality, or embodiment as part of the path — things many modern paths embrace.

His teaching aligns more with rejection of the world than transformation of it.

 

 

 

 

I don’t think it’s unreasonable that I think unconditioned should be genuinely unconditioned. Also I don’t see any reference to a higher consciousness that was installed. A Buddhist won’t see this as important perhaps, but it is something I’d look for in anyone who claims to be beyond karma. 

 

Quote

IDK. Does one discard it or delve into it to find the truth?

 

 

Understood, looking for different layer. But, then wouldn't it then become theory if one hasn't experienced the ultimate truth or enlightenment?

Interest in what breaks the loop. opens the heart, allow actual higher consciousness? Wouldn't that require doing the actual work to do that? IDK. I am still on my own journey.

 

 

I do not want to espouse the same Buddhist responses that you have grown so tired of. So, no real answer here. IDK.  Personally, I like hearing the Buddhist responses. It helps to hear that I am not far from the truth. Good night.

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Bindi

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Bindi said:

...

I’m trying to speak from a different layer. I’m not interested in theories. I’m interested in what changes us for real — what breaks the loop, opens the heart, allows actual higher consciousness to actually inhabit the body. 

...

 

This could do with its own separate thread  !  

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

This could do with its own separate thread  !  

Feel free to share your thoughts on this here!

[old3bob]

 

unconditional Love from Spirit changes us without any devices or motives for itself...

(and it can not be bought, sold or forced with our efforts and acts with power per its own wisdom beyond any "normal" understanding of who deserves it or not)

 

 

Edited 6 hours ago by old3bob